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Aileron rolls in a Firestar - It cannot be done?

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John H Murphy

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 78
Location: Henderson, NV

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:00 am Post subject: Aileron rolls in a Firestar - It cannot be done?

Hi All,



Just got back from a two day (16 hour) FAA Inspection course at Rainbow Aviation in Northern California. Excellent course. I will be able to do all my FAA annuals on any E-LSA that I own now or in the future. The instruction from Carol & Brian Carpenter was really first class. 



Anyway Brian told the class that the Firestar is unable to complete a aileron roll because of the wing design. He said the only way to recover is to put the aircraft in a dive (I hope I have this right).



Not that I intend to do any aileron rolls in my Firestar II but what's the story? Is this true? Is there a flaw in the Firestar's wing design?

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: Aileron rolls in a Firestar - It cannot be done?

At 04:00 AM 3/12/2007, John H Murphy wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Not that I intend to do any aileron rolls in my Firestar II but what's the 

story? Is this true? Is there a flaw in the Firestar's wing design?


	


It's not a design flaw; it's just a matter of the design parameters 

chosen.  The Firestar isn't designed to be an aerobatic ship.  The flat 

bottom airfoil is good for low speed performance and flying right side up, 

but flat bottom airfoils just don't work very well upside down.  A Pitts 

Special can fly upside down all day long, but it doesn't have any hear the 

STOL capability of a Kolb, either.



                                 -Dana



--

--

For people who like peace and quiet: a phoneless cord.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron rolls in a Firestar - It cannot be done?

He probably should not have used the term "Unable To complete a Roll".  The flat bottom wing does not fly well upside down, but they do roll.  You do not have to go negative G to roll a plane.



Chances of it being successfully done are probably pretty low, im sure the great majority of people would screw it up and probably overstress the airplane, or kill themselves.



But to say it "Cant Be Done", I just dont buy that.



JettpIlot

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

jghunter(at)nol.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject: Aileron rolls in a Firestar - It cannot be done?

well, the procedure to roll a c-150 or a c-172 is to add power, lower

nose and roll... maybe toss is a bit rudder. and even then it is a

wallowed out roll at best. all the time trying to not overspeed nor over

stress...



so given the limited envelope of an ultralight such as a firestar... how

could it be done? and would it not be just a wallow through?



just curious...



jamn



do not archive



On 3/12/2007, "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



He probably should not have used the term "Unable To complete a Roll".  The flat bottom wing does not fly well upside down, but they do roll.  You do not have to go negative G to roll a plane.



Chances of it being successfully done are probably pretty low, im sure the great majority of people would screw it up and probably overstress the airplane, or kill themselves.



But to say it "Cant Be Done", I just dont buy that.



JettpIlot



--------

"NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100107#100107

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron rolls in a Firestar - It cannot be done?

Normally in a low performance airplane you would get some speed, raise the nose 20 degrees, then do your aileron roll.  The slower the roll response the higher you raise the nose to start; that way you won't exceed Vne on recovery.  The nose should end up only slightly nose low; not 30 degrees nose down.

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: Aileron rolls in a Firestar - It cannot be done?

I`ll bet Dennis S. Knows the answer to this.!!

---

jwdfly16(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: Aileron rolls in a Firestar - It cannot be done?

Hello Jim,

Dennis will not have to respond. Can not be done.

You had better take care of that Mark III.

Jack D. do not archive

[quote] 



 I`ll bet Dennis S. Knows the answer to this.!!

 ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: Aileron rolls in a Firestar - It cannot be done?

The nose should end up only slightly nose low; not 30 degrees nose 

down.

|

| --------

| Jim



Jim:



Firestars, especially the early model Firestar, would not roll.  I 

used to practice hours at a time.  Even had my old buddy on the ground 

coaching me with a hand held radio.  I could get her upside down and 

she would fall out of it.  Was not problem other than the fact we 

could only get half way through the maneuver.  No big problem when one 

screwed up, turn loose of the stick and she would start flying again. 

Amazing little airplane, but.............she was not built for 

aerobatics and tried to kill me when she had had enough.  Aerobatics 

are for aerobatic aircraft.  Aerobatics are not for little airplanes 

that are not rated as such.  I have not done an aerobatic maneuver, on 

purpose, in 17 years tomorrow, if I remember correctly.



If some of you all still want to do loops and rolls, hammer heads, and 

all the rest of the fun stuff in a Kolb, be my guest.  However, please 

remember the penalty for performing these maneuvers is a great 

possibilty you will die.  Thanks, Jim Handbury, for designing and 

manufacturing a great deployed emergency parachute.  Dennis Souder 

used a similar parachute when he folded the wing on the Ultrastar six 

years prior.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: Aileron rolls in a Firestar - It cannot be done?

Thanks, Jim Handbury, for designing and 

| manufacturing a great "HAND" deployed emergency parachute.  

 | 

| john h

| mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Aileron rolls in a Firestar - It cannot be done?

I did not mean to imply that you can do an aileron role in any airplane.  That is not the case, at least not safely.  See how well it does through the first 90 degrees.  If not satisfied, ABORT.  If not confident in your ability and the airplane, do not try it.  It takes a long time to complete that last 270 degrees of roll in a low performane airplane.  Do not apply G while rolling; wait until wings are level.



Legaly, if experimental you need to be above 5000 agl and wear an approved parachute.





 	  jim wrote: 	
		  Normally in a low performance airplane you would get some speed, raise the nose 20 degrees, then do your aileron roll.  The slower the roll response the higher you raise the nose to start; that way you won't exceed Vne on recovery.  The nose should end up only slightly nose low; not 30 degrees nose down.

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

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