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joe

Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 16
Location: Broken Arrow, Ok

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: newbie

Hello,

I've been reading here for a couple of weeks.  Brand new to flying.  Barely started hang gliding in 1980 and the new wife got pregnant, maybe I had a little something to do with that, but she stopped it, "not going to raise this child alone."  Now three grown boys later, I am ready to go at it again, she still doesn't like the idea, but will relent I'm sure.  I went in ppcs for half a dozen flights and tried to get into that, but found it boring.  I think I want to fly ultra lights.  I joined the local ultralight club, but it has been so windy no one brings thier plane to the monthly meeting.  Knowing that I know nothing, I'm just looking to get some rides and start learning.  Then decide what I want.  After looking around on the internet I think I want to end up with a Kolb, though again, "I know nothing."

I don't want to make this too long, just want to say hi and try to learn from you.  Plan on asking some stupid questions, hope you don't mind.

Joe Klerekoper

Bob Dalton

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 68
Location: Manteca, Ca

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:13 am Post subject: newbie

Joe,  

You are in the right place and have found the right "Aircraft". Everyone here is terrific and very knowledgeable, welcome! Where are you located?  

   

Bob D.  

Manteca,  CA  

Do not archive  

   

Craig Nelson’s Kolb(Ariz.) – “Beautiful”  

[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01C76DE3.D5E46F70[/img]  

   

Bob Dalton  

wiserguy(at)comcast.net  

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_________________
Bob Dalton
Manteca, Ca.
wiserguy@comcast.net

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:17 am Post subject: newbie

In a message dated 3/24/2007 9:09:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  okjoek2000(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I think    I want to fly ultra lights.  I joined the local ultralight club, but it    has been so windy no one brings thier plane to the monthly meeting.     Knowing that I know nothing, I'm just looking to get some rides and start    learning.  Then decide what I want.  After looking around on the    internet I think I want to end up with a Kolb, though again, "I know    nothing."

I don't want to make this too long, just want to say hi and try    to learn from you.  Plan on asking some stupid questions, hope you don't    mind.

Joe Klerekoper

	


 

 Welcome Joe,

 The only true ultralight that Kolb currently produces is the Firefly. It is  a joy to fly and has features such as easy wing folding.  You can find used  ones, build one or even have one built for you.  If on the other hand you  are looking for a "Looks like an Ultralight" but is a real airplane, Kolb still  comes in at the top of the hill. I am sure you will get a lot of help  here.

 Good Luck

 Steve Boetto

 Firefly 007 on Floats   

              

  





AOL now AOL.com.

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: Re: newbie

Hi Joe,



Ultralights are pretty safe IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING.   Its the guys that get an ultralight, that know nothing about aviation and flying that get themselves killed on a regular basis.  It will take dedication, and a willingness and ability to learn a lot on your part to do this safely.   It will take knowlege as well as having the judgement and coordination to fly safely.  Not everyone can learn to fly, there are those that just dont have what it takes.  Buying an Ultralight is not like going out and buying a motorcycle and learning to ride it, it is orders of magnatude more difficult.   It is also a lot more fun    Just make sure you are willing to put the effort, time and dedicatoin into this before you decide to do this.



Your wife was right, Hang Gliders are very dangerous, for a lot of reasons that I dont have the time to go into here.   Kolbs are a great airplane and very safe if you know what you are doing, but you will have a very big building project on your hands, unless you buy one already used.  If you get a Kolb, at least get the quick build option, its well worth the money.   In my opinion, flying ultralights is more fun than anything else you can do on this planet...   You will love this !   Just make sure you are prepared to put the work, dedication, and time into learning how to fly safely.



Mike Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: newbie

Joe,

I'm sending you (to your email add) some pages on UL flying that may  

be of interest. Other newcomers (dislike "newbies") have liked  

them....they are reprints, including a piece on the legal ultralight  

Kolb FireFly.

regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/

Paul Petty

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Mississippi

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: Re: newbie

Joe,

Welcome aboard! I was once where you are and also landed on a Kolb aircraft. 1. was the fine folks on this list,2 was the fine folks at the factory but most important was the design of the kolb. As John Hauck once told me in the beginning, "Building is a major part of the whole experiance" Those words ring in my head almost every time I work on my Kolbra. Feel free to ask any of us anything and call the new kolb aircraft company. Great folks up there in those Kentucky hills. They have been really good to me over the past 3 years. I am just weeks away from first taxi test and first flight. I could not have made it this far without this list and it's members or the support of TNK.



Regards

_________________
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
912 UL 70" warp

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: newbie

Mike Bigelow Writes:



  Your wife was right, Hang Gliders are very dangerous, for a lot of 

reasons that

 I dont have the time to go into here.



  Kolbs are a great airplane and very safe if you know what you are 

doing,



  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------



 Mike



 Todays HangGliders are no more dangerous than the KOLB you fly...

In fact I could very easily argue they are safer than any powered form 

of flight....



  Like ANY aircraft they require the same amount of dedication to learn 

and fly them safely..

  They like your Kolb as you put it --- "are very safe if you know what 

you are doing"---

  And are a lot cheaper and less disturbing to any of the Local 

residents that may be

 living below you......



  I came from a GA back ground ( flew GA 5 yrs) but once I learned to 

fly a HangGlider I

 never looked back...



  In my 5 years of GA I had a Tire blow on landing, Got caught on top 

VFR.

  Had a landing light go on a Night XC. AND about starved the Motor due 

to a leaking Fuel Tank...



  Also Keep in mind Hangglider Pilots are taught from day one to fly the 

craft with a Dead Stick

  mentality.... Were you? My guess is yes but do you??? my guess is 

no....



  With a Hangglider its not required but IS a very good idea to always 

stay with in Glide

  of an LZ ..... Tree extractions are very survivable BUT are a real 

pain in the Ass 



  Once the PIlot understands the Soaring Environment he can often go 

places that have few if

  any places to land but feel confident he will find lift based on the 

Days conditions...

 This of course is a Leaned skill in the sport Of SOARING...



  HangGliders weigh on average 65 lbs A Kolb weighs What, about 300 to 

400lbs??

  Seems to me that 350lbs (at) 40 mph is going to mess up Christmas 8-( if 

you hit something.



 HGs are stressed for the same G loading as a KOLB Firestar II 6+ & 3-



  HGs Can land in LZs much tighter than you'd ever consider in you Kolb 

and if needed perform a

  safe Tree landing yet walk away from the experience where as a Kolb 

PIlot would most likely

  in up in the hospital IF your lucky... And you'll most definitely have 

a totaled Air craft...



  A Hangglider Leading edge is about $500.00 and takes about 2 hours to 

replace...



  A HG Stall speed is about 17 mph But can be Stopped Dead in the Air IF 

the pilot chooses...

  He then drops straight down for what we call a NO step landing.... 

Best done with less than 6 Ft

 of altitude for obvious reasons hahahahaha 



 Can you in your KOLB do any of these things??? Shall I go on????

 MIke IMO

  Flying any Motorized Craft is much more dangerous than flying a Hang 

Glider...

  The speed the weight the Required Space to land and the Dependency on 

that Motor is what makes this so...



  Oh and lets not forget that A Hangglider will fit on the Garage Wall 

and doesn't require a Trailer to get it to

 and from the launch site.... 



 MIKE

  IMO his wife is Wrong .......... HangGliding depending on the pilots 

mentality is by far the safest

  and most incredible form of aviation on the planet....... To be able 

to go round and round with a Gaggle of Soaring Birds

  to cloud base or to be challenged by a Red Tail defending her nesting 

area as you climb up the face of a Mountain

  in a Thermal or to watch your glory as you pass by a cloud going Cross 

Country is by far some of the Greatest

  experience a Pilot can ever have... And Ive done them all on a 

HangGlider....

 FYI

  The record Distance on a Hangglider is over 400 miles Set by Mike 

Barber in TEXAS



  I personally have over 1000 hours loogged in various models of 

Hanggliders but I'm sure I have closer

 to 1500 total..... I only have 125 in GA



 Mark Vaughn

  Now 50 looking at Wheeled options for his aging landing gear..  Yes 

I'm even looking at a Kolb....

  BUT! Hanggliding will forever be my true LOVE when it comes to 

Flight....

________________________________________________________________________

from AOL at AOL.com.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: newbie

Most of your assumptions as to why hangliders are safer are just plain wrong.    First you say that a hang glider is lighter, and therefore safer, which shows your understanding of crashes are lacking.   A kolb has gear to soften even the hardest landings, a hang glider pilot uses his body as landing gear and usually breaks something on a very bad landing.   A Kolb has a strong steel cage to protect you in a crash, a hang glider has nothing, if you hit the ground hard, you are going to get badly hurt or killed.



Light Weight = Safety is what you imply...  Would you rather hit an tree at 30 MPH in a toyota, or in a large SUV ?   Your thinking is just wrong.



What really makes a hang glider dangerous, is the conditions in which they launch, fly and land.  Most hang gliders take off of a hill, or cliff with the wind blowing, they are very difficult to control in this phase of flight, with turbulance and wing, and I have seen many launches go wrong.   If you are doing a tow takeoff, its far more common for the guys in the hang glider to get hurt or killed than the guy in the tow plane.   As far as your slow stall speed, you need it, every time because in a hang glider you are landing in mostly unimproved fields, and less than desirable locations.  With a Kolb, we can and usually do operate off of much better strips.



Given some of the very false and inaccurate in your post, I can tell you are one of those guys that has an agenda and wont let facts or truth stand in the way of what you want to beleive.  If you like hang gliding, more power to you, It looks like fun, and I considered hang gliding myself at one time, but decided not to after investigating the risks and talking to some very experienced hang glider pilots.   We all owe it to newcommers to give them truthful and accurate information about the sports they are about to enter.



JettPilot

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: newbie

At 03:38 PM 3/24/2007, knowvne(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		    ...Flying any Motorized Craft is much more dangerous than flying a Hang 

 Glider...


	


HG is cool, and a lot safer than the death trap reputation inherited from 

its bad old days... but I don't think the statistics bear out the claim 

that it's safer than motorized aircraft.  Quite the contrary, on a per 

flight hour basis.



                                 -Dana



--

--

The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve. 

The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.

joe

Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 16
Location: Broken Arrow, Ok

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:34 am Post subject: Re: newbie

I appreciate the kindness I've been shown, and I agree, I like newcomer better than newbie too.  

I am not really looking into hanggliding anymore, I may not have been clear on that.  I also after some flights don't think ppc is what I want to do.  I want to be able to move a little faster than that, not that slow isn't fun too.  

I am interested in moving eventually on to sport pilot, I think I would like to be able to take someone with me.  I just have to figure out how to get the time I need in and thought maybe buying a 103 plane first to get my hours in and then moving on to a two seater with sport pilot.  

I still have two boys in college, the business I worked for just sold and laid everyone off, and I just started a new job, so money isn't what it could be.  I am however selling another business I have, soon I hope, and that should free up some money.

I have wondered if I shouldn't get something like a quicksilver for the 103, hope that is not a dirty word here, just to learn the basics.  It seems like it would be fun being "out there".  Then move up to a Kolb when I get my two seater.  Any thoughts?

I am in Broken Arrow, Ok, its just outside of Tulsa.  Gets a bit breezy here so I definately think 3 axis.  The Kolb 103 maybe the better one to go with, I need experience and advice.

Again thank you everyone for all the response and support,

Joe Klerekoper

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: newbie

Joe, The most important thing you should look for, in my humble opinion, is good flight training and support for whatever you decide to purchase. 

Find a local flight park where training is done and just go watch the activity for a day.  

What are they flying? 

Is there maintenance facilities on the field? 

Do they have a retail operation where you can get parts? 

Once you find the flight park that can give you that kind of support, take an introductory flight with an instructor. If that goes well, take lessons.  

Learn everything you can before you make the commitment and money changes hands. Nothing will turn you off to aviation like bad training and the wrong airplane for you.



Rick



 On 3/25/07, joe <okjoek2000(at)yahoo.com (okjoek2000(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "joe" <okjoek2000(at)yahoo.com (okjoek2000(at)yahoo.com)>



I appreciate the kindness I've been shown, and I agree, I like newcomer better than newbie too. 

I am not really looking into hanggliding anymore, I may not have been clear on that.  I also after some flights don't think ppc is what I want to do.  I want to be able to move a little faster than that, not that slow isn't fun too. 

I am interested in moving eventually on to sport pilot, I think I would like to be able to take someone with me.  I just have to figure out how to get the time I need in and thought maybe buying a 103 plane first to get my hours in and then moving on to a two seater with sport pilot. 

I still have two boys in college, the business I worked for just sold and laid everyone off, and I just started a new job, so money isn't what it could be.  I am however selling another business I have, soon I hope, and that should free up some money. 

I have wondered if I shouldn't get something like a quicksilver for the 103, hope that is not a dirty word here, just to learn the basics.  It seems like it would be fun being "out there".  Then move up to a Kolb when I get my two seater.  Any thoughts? 

I am in Broken Arrow, Ok, its just outside of Tulsa.  Gets a bit breezy here so I definately think 3 axis.  The Kolb 103 maybe the better one to go with, I need experience and advice.

Again thank you everyone for all the response and support, 

Joe Klerekoper





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=102744#102744





 

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: newbie

Here's your answer. Look into the Firestar II with a 503, all the fun you 

could want and in the 13k range.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: Re: newbie

 	  joe wrote: 	
		  



I have wondered if I shouldn't get something like a quicksilver for the 103, hope that is not a dirty word here, just to learn the basics.  It seems like it would be fun being "out there".  Then move up to a Kolb when I get my two seater.  Any thoughts?

	




Hi Joe,



A quicksilver is a horrible flying plane, and with very poor performance, and glides like an anvil.  If you want something small, for 103, that does not require building, get a trike.  I small trike is a pleasure to fly, and can fly in a fair amount of wind.  They are safe, have good performance, and glide very well.   The key there is to get good trike, there are good ones and horrible ones.   But a single seat small trike is a heck of a lot nicer flying than a quicksilver.    



Look at the Air Creations Racer with Fun 14 wing, and also look at the GibboGear manta wing with the BB sport trike.   The Air Creations is more expensive, but a much better machine and worth it.   A trike can also be stored in your garage, is easy to break down, tow, and setup where ever you want to fly.  With a quicksilver, you need a hangar.   I cannot tell you enough how much work a quicksilver is to fly... High control forces, poor handling, sluggish, its not my idea of fun flying.  A trike is so much better.  Get a ride in a 2 place trike and a 2 place quicksilver and you will see what I mean.   



Feel free  to ask whatever you need, even if its not Kolb, its all about flying and we are happy to help a new guy in any way we can.



Michael Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: newbie

Joe



I may be misunderstanding what you are saying but any hours in a part 103 

will not count for anything other than personal experience. When the sport 

pilot program was announced there was a program were 103 experience would 

count towards training hours required under the sport pilot license but the 

deadline has passed. Since part 103 isn't recognized as a airplane, flight 

time even while working on your license will not count.



Be very careful what you buy. There are allot of planes out there that are 

flying as ultralights that aren't legal under part 103. I would guess MOST 

planes aren't legal even a few Kolb Fire Flys. Now if you fly out of your 

own strip and don't get caught you may be able to pick up some very 

inexpensive illegal 103 airplanes when they become truly illegal at the end 

of this year. Also you could pick up one of these illegal airplanes and get 

it registered as a E-LSP if you complete the registration by the end of the 

window near the end of this year.



My personal feeling is that the FAA will be cracking down on those illegal 

103s after the end of the year. If one were to get caught fly a unregistered 

airplane without a license it might be very difficult to get a license for 

some time.



My $.02 worth



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc



---

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: newbie

Mike



Seems like one of the rules is to at least try to keep this Kolb related.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc



---

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: newbie

 Light Weight = Safety is what you imply...  Would you rather hit an tree at 30

      MPH in a toyota, or in a large SUV ?   Your thinking is just wrong.



The above statement jostled me to reply.  A medium sized tree will stop

a motorcycle, a small car, and a large SUV in the same distance.

Your mileage will NOT vary.  You will all be dead.



If you have any experience in a bulldozer you will know what I mean.



Oak tree wins every time.

BB

 [quote][b]

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject: newbie

Seems to me this is very much Kolb-related! -- let's not nit-pick,  

and try to help a newcomer.



On Mar 25, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:



[quote] 

 <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>



 Mike



 Seems like one of the rules is to at least try to keep this Kolb  

 related.



 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIc



 ---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: newbie

[quote="slyck(at)frontiernet.net"]ï¿½Light Weight = Safety is what you imply...ï¿½ Would you rather hit an tree at 30

ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ MPH in a toyota, or in a large SUV ? ï¿½ Your thinking is just wrong.



The above statement jostled me to reply.ï¿½ A medium sized tree will stop

a motorcycle, a small car, and a large SUV in the same distance.

Your mileage will NOT vary.ï¿½ You will all be dead.



If you have any experience in a bulldozer you will know what I mean.



Oak tree wins every time.

BB

  	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




Of course you will be stopped in the same distance, but you are ignoring a huge part of what causes desth and injury in a crash. The larger SUV will not experience as much vehicle crush, and is much less likely to crush the dash into your legs, the SUV is usually built better and is more crash worthy in the same accident.   Car companies crash different cars into walls all the time testing how much injury is done to the occupants.   Same crash, same speed, some cars protect you very well, some dont.  This is crash 101 , I figured everyone would know this.



Same with a Kolb.  The hang glider has no seat belt, if you impact anything, it will be with your body.  My Kolb has seat belts, and a steel cage, in a minor crash, I will be held in the seat the cage will deform instead of my my body....    This gives me a much better chance of living or avoiding serious injury than a hang glider.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: newbie

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 joe wrote:

> I have wondered if I shouldn't get something like a quicksilver for the 

> 103, hope that is not a dirty word here, just to learn the basics.  It 

> seems like it would be fun being "out there".  Then move up to a Kolb 

> when I get my two seater.  Any thoughts?

>


	


I would suggest that you do all the research that you can and buy the best 

that you are ever going to be able to afford, rather than buy a cheap 

something that will not satisfy you later. Buying progressively better is 

not cheaper. As I have gotten older I finally realized that buying the 

bottom of the line was not the way to save money.

Larry, Oregon



do not archive

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: newbie

Mike, So you say I have to hit the tree at somewhere over my best glide speed and you get to hit it below your stall and you call that equal. Comparing aircraft to cars can only go so far as cars lack the ability to move in three dimensions which greatly amplify the survivability of the aircraft. We also have the ability to selectively sacrifice structure to further ameliorate crash severity. 

In the book, "Mountain Flying" the author passes on one of the best pieces of information I've ever gotten. At 60 mph all the distance required to safely stop a 2500 lb airplane is 9 feet. If you are prepared for the crash by being belted in and the belts are properly installed, that 9 feet makes for a G force the human body can withstand without serious injury. 

Now take the 250 lb. hang glider and pilot flying into something at 20 mph. Since the force is proprtional to the square of the speed, it has already been reduced by a factor of 8 before we factor in having 1/10 the mass to start with. 

So Mike, if you want to fly Suburbans into fixed bridge abuttments, well, this is America, so feel free. I'll take the lightest most structurally efficient aircraft suitable to the purpose.

Rick

PS Hang glider pilots don't jump. Parachutists jump. Hang gliders fly like every other aircraft. 

On 3/25/07, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com (lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com (lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com)>

 	  Quote: 	

 joe wrote:

> I have wondered if I shouldn't get something like a quicksilver for the 

> 103, hope that is not a dirty word here, just to learn the basics.  It

> seems like it would be fun being "out there".  Then move up to a Kolb

> when I get my two seater.  Any thoughts? 

>

I would suggest that you do all the research that you can and buy the best

that you are ever going to be able to afford, rather than buy a cheap

something that will not satisfy you later. Buying progressively better is 

-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

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