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O2 in air tank??????

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n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

Just got the following e mail from a friend.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you already know, perhaps not.



A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine you have in the Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap -----



He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded engine. Apparently, when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in. This happened at another airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the problem.When he started the engine, it backfired violently, but started. 



Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he flew home. The next time he tried to start, no air pressure.



Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so extream that it blew a 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting on a hard line, and lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the engine.



Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the studs out of the adapter that the air distributor sits on.



Moral of this story, if you need an air fill, be sure that it is air, or nitrogen, not oxygen.

	


Are the O2 transfill adapters compatible with the fill connector on the air tanks?

_________________
Milt

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

This same situation happened a few years back and literally ejected the 

pilot from the Yak 52.  It blew lines, tank and everything else.  If someone 

was in the back seat, they would not have made it because of the shrapnel.



Although there is no clear way to prevent someone unfamiliar with the 

airplane with filling the pneumatic system with O2, putting a conspicuous 

label at/around the external air fill port saying "compressed air only" in 

big, bold, letters may help at some point in time.



Dennis



"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

---

ScottA

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Park City, UT

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:28 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below.  Just to add a few notes.  



The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem when the O2 initially pumped in. 



Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused by the backfire.  Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.  To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.



Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.



How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation like this?



FWIW

Scott



--

culpspecial(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:46 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

Hi:

   

  Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and the fittings are different.  I was kinda suprised that someone would change the fittings around to make this happen.

   

  I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.

   

  If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the contents I would not use it. 

   

  One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to start the engine.  Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas.  But they should get good oil pressure.<grin>

   

  If in doubt hand prop the engine.  M-14s  prop pretty easy with two people.  One in the plane and one on the ground.  If you are completely out of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something substantial.<grin>

    

  I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.  Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice.  I have installed tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces of cable and just leave the cable behind  after they started their planes.

   

  Steve Culp

  

Scott Aldrich <s-aldrich(at)comcast.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich" 



I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few notes. 



The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem  when the O2 initially pumped in. 



Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up. To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.



Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.



How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation like this?



FWIW

Scott



--

warner.wesley(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.



Wes

On 4/1/07, Steve Culp <culpspecial(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

[quote] Hi:



   Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and

 the fittings are different.  I was kinda suprised that someone would change

 the fittings around to make this happen.



   I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.



   If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the

 contents I would not use it.



   One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to

 start the engine.  Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas.  But

 they should get good oil pressure.<grin>



   If in doubt hand prop the engine.  M-14s  prop pretty easy with two

 people.  One in the plane and one on the ground.  If you are completely out

 of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something

 substantial.<grin>



   I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.

 Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice.  I have installed

 tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces

 of cable and just leave the cable behind  after they started their planes.



   Steve Culp



 Scott Aldrich <s-aldrich(at)comcast.net> wrote:

   



 I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few

 notes.



 The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the

 tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily

 air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem

 when the O2 initially pumped in.



 Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused

 by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big

 violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.

 To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line

 from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the

 stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.



 Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.



 How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation

 like this?



 FWIW

 Scott



 --

culpspecial(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

Interesting since nitrogen won't support combustion.

  It has never worked for me or my customers.

  Were you completely filling an empty system or topping off a low system?

  I can see if you were topping off a system that had some air in it.

  Steve

  



Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner" 



I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.



Wes

On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:

[quote] Hi:



 Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and

 the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change

 the fittings around to make this happen.



 I would  think he is very lucky no one was injured.



 If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the

 contents I would not use it.



 One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to

 start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But

 they should get good oil pressure.



 If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two

 people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out

 of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something

 substantial.



 I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.

 Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed

 tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces

 of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their  planes.



 Steve Culp



 Scott Aldrich wrote:

 --> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"



 I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few

 notes.



 The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the

 tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily

 air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem

 when the O2 initially pumped in.



 Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused

 by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big

 violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.

 To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line

 from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail -  the

 stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.



 Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.



 How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation

 like this?



 FWIW

 Scott



 --

warner.wesley(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

The system was totally empty.  The tee on tank (55M) broke while at a

training camp.  So we used an elbow from elsewhere and bypassed the

compressor.  We then filled the tank with nitrogen and I used it for 2

starts.  The next day we filled the tank again, hand propped it

(Thanks Nikolay) to save the remaining pressure for a start at my next

fuel stop.  I then started again at my fuel stop, and flew the

remainder of the way home.  Those were the only times I have tried it,

as I've had a scuba tank available at most places.



Wes



On 4/1/07, Steve Culp <culpspecial(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Interesting since nitrogen won't support combustion.

 It has never worked for me or my customers.

 Were you completely filling an empty system or topping off a low system?

 I can see if you were topping off a system that had some air in it.

 Steve

 Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 



 I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.



 Wes

aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:28 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

I've used it twice when I ran it below the 200 psi or so that in normally required to start once on my 55 long wing and once on my 55m model, starts up just fine.



Steve Culp <culpspecial(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

  [quote]  Interesting since nitrogen won't support combustion.

  It has never worked for me or my customers.

  Were you completely filling an empty system or topping off a low system?

  I can see if you were topping off a system that had some air in it.

  Steve

  



Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner" 



I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It  worked just fine.



Wes

On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:

[quote] Hi:



 Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and

 the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change

 the fittings around to make this happen.



 I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.



 If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the

 contents I would not use it.



 One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to

 start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But

 they should get good oil pressure.



 If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two

 people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out

 of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something

  substantial.



 I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.

 Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed

 tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces

 of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.



 Steve Culp



 Scott Aldrich wrote:

 --> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"



 I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few

 notes.



 The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the

 tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily

 air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem

 when the O2 initially pumped in.



 Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any  "back pressure" caused

 by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big

 violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.

 To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line

 from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the

 stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.



 Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.



 How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation

 like this?



 FWIW

 Scott



 --

MONTY(at)bpaengines.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

I don't see why an M14 would not start using nitrogen.  I agree, it does not support combustion, BUT!  It is not introduced to a cylinder that is going to have combustion.



Monty Barrett



--

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

Monte,

It's like MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil).  No one knows why it works so well.  As 

for my engine, I've tried it several times and it just won't start.  Don't 

ask me why, because I'll give you the MMO answer. 

Dennis



---

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

I've started my Yak 50 several times with nitrogen. Works fine !



Jan Mevis



--

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

This topic sure comes up a lot.  -)   I too have started an engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen.  Others have tried it and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work.  Possibly a variation in the starting air distributor setting.  

   

  Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on the firing stroke.  Other pistons not being forced downward with the compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard air/fuel mixture.  

   

  Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine.  I admit it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.  

   

  Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.  

   

  Mark Bitterlich

   N50YK



Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner" 



I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.



Wes

On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:

[quote] Hi:



 Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and

 the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change

 the fittings around to make this happen.



 I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.



 If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the

 contents I would not use it.



 One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to

 start the engine. Of course the  engine won't start on an inert gas. But

 they should get good oil pressure.



 If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two

 people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out

 of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something

 substantial.



 I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.

 Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed

 tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces

 of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.



 Steve Culp



 Scott Aldrich wrote:

 --> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"



 I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few

 notes.



 The air bottle is  the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the

 tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily

 air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem

 when the O2 initially pumped in.



 Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused

 by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big

 violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.

 To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line

 from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the

 stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.



 Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.



 How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation

 like this?



 FWIW

  Scott



 --

george(at)gesoco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:51 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

Mark, 

     A slight correction that probably would not change your  theory, but air is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion  strokes to ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock.  

     You can put me in the class that never has had  any luck with nitrogen. I have started them with no air by my self by tying them  down, suitably priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at  TDC. The shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it  will keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the  re start. 

  

 George



   From:  owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak  Pilot

Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM

To:  m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: O2 in  air tank??????

 

 This topic sure comes up a lot.  -)   I too have started an  engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen.  Others have tried it  and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work.  Possibly a  variation in the starting air distributor setting.  

  

 Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on  the firing stroke.  Other pistons not being forced downward with the  compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard air/fuel  mixture.  

  

 Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with  water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine.  I admit it  did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than  once.  

  

 Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 N50YK



Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com>  wrote:

 [quote]-->    M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner"    



I have started an M14P more than once with    nitrogen. It worked just fine.



Wes

On 4/1/07, Steve Culp    wrote:

[quote] Hi:



 Welding companies    have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and

 the fittings    are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change

 the    fittings around to make this happen.



 I would think he is very    lucky no one was injured.



 If the cylinder looks strange and    does not have a label identifying the

 contents I would not use    it.



 One of the most common mistakes is for people to use    Nitrogen to try to

 start the engine. Of course the engine won't start    on an inert gas. But

 they should get good oil    pressure.



 If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop    pretty easy with two

 people. One in the plane and one on the ground.    If you are completely out

 of air and the plane has air brakes tie the    plane down to something

 substantial.



 I have    propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.

    Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have    installed

 tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry    some small pieces

 of cable and just leave the cable behind after they    started their planes.



 Steve Culp



 Scott Aldrich    wrote:

 --> M14PEngines-List message posted    by: "Scott Aldrich"



 I've spoken with the owner of the Moose    mentioned below. Just to add a few

 notes.



 The air    bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the

    tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of    oily

 air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why    no problem

 when the O2 initially pumped in.



 Also all    the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused

 by    the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big

    violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing    up.

 To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided    flex line

 from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the    tail - the

 stainless braid was blown out all along this line    too.



 Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle    was "air" not O2.



 How would one test to see if an unknown    source was air or O2 in a situation

 like this?



    FWIW

 Scott



 --

culpspecial(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

Pretty brave words.

  I have it on good authority that you can also use NOS to start them or in a pinch methane gas.  I have even started them with high pressure water.  Push starting also works but is hard on the rudder as you have to be pushed about 120.

  Steve



George Coy <george(at)gesoco.com> wrote:

  [quote]    Mark, 

      A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but air is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock. 

       You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I have started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the re start. 

   

  George



      From:  owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot

Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM

To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: O2 in air tank??????

  

  This topic sure comes up a lot.  -)   I too have started an engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen.  Others have tried it and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work.  Possibly a variation in the starting air distributor setting.  

   

  Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on the firing stroke.  Other pistons not being forced downward with the compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard air/fuel mixture.  

   

  Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my  tanks with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine.  I admit it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.  

   

  Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.  

   

  Mark Bitterlich

  N50YK



Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner" 



I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.



Wes

On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:

[quote] Hi:



 Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and

 the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change

 the fittings around to make this  happen.



 I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.



 If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the

 contents I would not use it.



 One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to

 start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But

 they should get good oil pressure.



 If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two

 people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out

 of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something

 substantial.



 I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.

 Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed

 tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces

 of cable and just leave the cable behind  after they started their planes.



 Steve Culp



 Scott Aldrich wrote:

 --> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"



 I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few

 notes.



 The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the

 tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily

 air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem

 when the O2 initially pumped in.



 Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused

 by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big

 violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.

 To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line

 from the solenoids on the fire wall to the  bottle in the tail - the

 stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.



 Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.



 How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation

 like this?



 FWIW

 Scott



 --

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

I’ve started several times with nitrogen without problem, but never managed to start it by hand propping. And I’m too scared to use this method anyway. George’s method is more appealing to me. But  how do you know that you’ve got a cylinder at TDC (without opening a cylinder; stupid question probably but hey, I’m only a simple guy J )  

   

Jan Mevis  

Yak 50  

RA2005K  

         

  

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy

 Sent: donderdag 12 april 2007 14:51

 To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: O2 in air tank??????  

  

   

Mark,   

    A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but air is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock.   

    You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I have started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the re start.   

   

George      

  

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot

 Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM

 To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: O2 in air tank??????    

This topic sure comes up a lot.  -)   I too have started an engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen.  Others have tried it and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work.  Possibly a variation in the starting air distributor setting.    

    

   

    

Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on the firing stroke.  Other pistons not being forced downward with the compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard air/fuel mixture.    

    

   

    

Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine.  I admit it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.    

    

   

    

Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.    

    

   

    

Mark Bitterlich  

    

N50YK

 

 Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:  

  [quote]  

--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner" 

 

 I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.

 

 Wes

 

 

 On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:

 > Hi:

 >

 > Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and

 > the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change

 > the fittings around to make this happen.

 >

 > I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.

 >

 > If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the

 > contents I would not use it.

 >

 > One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to

 > start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But

 > they should get good oil pressure.

 >

 > If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two

 > people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out

 > of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something

 > substantial.

 >

 > I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.

 > Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed

 > tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces

 > of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.

 >

 > Steve Culp

 >

 > Scott Aldrich wrote:

 > --> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"

 >

 > I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few

 > notes.

 >

 > The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the

 > tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily

 > air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem

 > when the O2 initially pumped in.

 >

 > Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused

 > by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big

 > violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.

 > To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line

 > from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the

 > stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.

 >

 > Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.

 >

 > How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation

 > like this?

 >

 > FWIW

 > Scott

 >

 > --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

Hello George, 



Yes, I learned about that "purge" measure when we accidentally removed

too much of the tach generator gear assy, and had to retime the air

distributor.  Isn't THAT a wonderful task?  I have to admit throwing my

tools down in disgust on that episode.  Sergei Boriak talked in Russian

on his cell for about an hour then came back and spent another 3 hours

messing with it, following which it worked.   



Anyway, thanks for the correction.   Bottom line, I can't explain for

sure why it works for me and not you. 



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:58 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

Don't forget the rubber band method.  

Mgb



 



--

culpspecial(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:15 am Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

I can speak from experience about the rubber bands.  Always get help as I lost my footing and slipped when I was almost back to the plane with the rubber band which was under a lot of tension. I was drug 3200 feet!  Launched me over the threshold of the runway and fortunatly no one was on final that day.  It would have killed me if I had not been on sod.

  Got to be careful.

  Steve



"Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:

  [quote]--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" 



Don't forget the rubber band method. 

Mgb



--

george(at)gesoco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:14 pm Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

Jan,

     You can usually feel when the prop turns  hard.



   From:  owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan  Mevis

Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:19 AM

To:  m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: O2 in  air tank??????

 

  

I’ve started several  times with nitrogen without problem, but never managed to start it by hand  propping. And I’m too scared to use this method anyway. George’s method is more  appealing to me. But  how do you know that you’ve got a cylinder at TDC  (without opening a cylinder; stupid question probably but hey, I’m only a simple  guy J  ) 

  

Jan  Mevis 

Yak  50 

RA2005K 

     

 

From:  owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy

Sent: donderdag 12 april 2007  14:51

To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: O2 in air  tank??????

 

  

Mark,   

    A slight correction  that probably would not change your theory, but air is also injected into the  bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to ostensibly blow out any oil or  fuel that could cause hydrolock.  

    You  can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I have  started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably priming and  pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The shower of sparks will  fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will keep going. Keep it tied  down until you get air pressure for brakes and the re start.   

  

George   

 

From:  owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot

Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15  AM

To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: O2 in air  tank??????  

This topic sure comes up a lot.  -)   I  too have started an engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen.   Others have tried it and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not  work.  Possibly a variation in the starting air distributor setting.   

  

 

  

Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a  cylinder that is on the firing stroke.  Other pistons not being forced  downward with the compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the  standard air/fuel mixture.  

  

 

  

Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have  filled my tanks with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the  engine.  I admit it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did  start.... more than once.  

  

 

  

Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.   

  

 

  

Mark Bitterlich

  

N50YK



Wesley Warner  <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com>  wrote:

 [quote]   

--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley    Warner" 



I have started an M14P more than once    with nitrogen. It worked just fine.



Wes

On 4/1/07, Steve    Culp wrote:

[quote] Hi:



 Welding    companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and

 the    fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change

    the fittings around to make this happen.



 I would think he is    very lucky no one was injured.



 If the cylinder looks strange    and does not have a label identifying the

 contents I would not use    it.



 One of the most common mistakes is for people to use    Nitrogen to try to

 start the engine. Of course the engine won't start    on an inert gas. But

 they should get good oil    pressure.



 If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop    pretty easy with two

 people. One in the plane and one on the ground.    If you are completely out

 of air and the plane has air brakes tie the    plane down to something

 substantial.



 I have    propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.

    Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have    installed

 tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry    some small pieces

 of cable and just leave the cable behind after they    started their planes.



 Steve Culp



 Scott Aldrich    wrote:

 --> M14PEngines-List message posted    by: "Scott Aldrich"



 I've spoken with the owner of the Moose    mentioned below. Just to add a few

 notes.



 The air    bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the

    tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of    oily

 air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why    no problem

 when the O2 initially pumped in.



 Also all    the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused

 by    the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big

    violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing    up.

 To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided    flex line

 from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the    tail - the

 stainless braid was blown out all along this line    too.



 Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle    was "air" not O2.



 How would one test to see if an unknown    source was air or O2 in a situation

 like this?



    FWIW

 Scott



 --

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: O2 in air tank??????

That’s what I figured. I’ll try it next time. Thanks !!  

         

  

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy

 Sent: donderdag 12 april 2007 22:08

 To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: O2 in air tank??????  

  

   

Jan,  

    You can usually feel when the prop turns hard.  

       

  

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis

 Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:19 AM

 To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: O2 in air tank??????  

I’ve started several times with nitrogen without problem, but never managed to start it by hand propping. And I’m too scared to use this method anyway. George’s method is more appealing to me. But  how do you know that you’ve got a cylinder at TDC (without opening a cylinder; stupid question probably but hey, I’m only a simple guy J )  

   

Jan Mevis  

Yak 50  

RA2005K  

         

  

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy

 Sent: donderdag 12 april 2007 14:51

 To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: O2 in air tank??????  

  

   

Mark,   

    A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but air is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock.   

    You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I have started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the re start.   

   

George      

  

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot

 Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM

 To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: O2 in air tank??????    

This topic sure comes up a lot.  -)   I too have started an engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen.  Others have tried it and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work.  Possibly a variation in the starting air distributor setting.    

    

   

    

Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on the firing stroke.  Other pistons not being forced downward with the compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard air/fuel mixture.    

    

   

    

Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine.  I admit it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.    

    

   

    

Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.    

    

   

    

Mark Bitterlich  

    

N50YK

 

 Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:  

  [quote]  

--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner" 

 

 I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.

 

 Wes

 

 

 On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:

 > Hi:

 >

 > Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and

 > the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change

 > the fittings around to make this happen.

 >

 > I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.

 >

 > If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the

 > contents I would not use it.

 >

 > One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to

 > start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But

 > they should get good oil pressure.

 >

 > If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two

 > people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out

 > of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something

 > substantial.

 >

 > I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.

 > Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed

 > tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces

 > of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.

 >

 > Steve Culp

 >

 > Scott Aldrich wrote:

 > --> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"

 >

 > I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few

 > notes.

 >

 > The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the

 > tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily

 > air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem

 > when the O2 initially pumped in.

 >

 > Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused

 > by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big

 > violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.

 > To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line

 > from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the

 > stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.

 >

 > Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.

 >

 > How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation

 > like this?

 >

 > FWIW

 > Scott

 >

 > --

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