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Rudder Spar Dent

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tommylutz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

Grrrr....mad at myself for either (1) not noticing this upon shipment OR (2) causing it myself somehow, unknowingly.



I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures.  It is a smooth dent, about 4mm in width.  I don't like where it is (~220mm from top of spar).  What is your take?   



Thanks,

Tom

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TH-SR

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 22
Location: WI

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

Hey Tom,

  

 Please post Zeniths reply to your question about the dent  on this list.

  

 Thanks,

 Todd 



   

 

I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures.  It  is a smooth dent, about 4mm in width.  I don't like where it is (~220mm  from top of spar).  What is your take?  

   [quote][b]

_________________
Todd
CH701

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:20 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

according to your post it is a "smooth dent". I take this to mean that it does not have either a mark at the bottom of the impression or sharp departures at the limits of the depression. If that is so, as I recal, this is under the footprint of the spar flange angle doubler. It might be possible to bump it back to contour without cracking or tearing the material using a stick made from maple with a relatively small radius on the end and a block of pine on the outside as an anvil. This would allow the doubler to lie shear on the inner surface of the flange as designed.

   

  Ideally, the hole pattern will straddle this defect. Being so near the tip, is does not see a lot of bending and may not be a critical issue. ZAC will know. Just be cautious if it is near and beyond the end of the doubler. If something were to happen you would not be able to inspect for it...



Tom Lutz <tommylutz(at)gmail.com> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  Grrrr....mad at myself for either (1) not noticing this upon shipment OR (2) causing it myself somehow, unknowingly.



I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures.  It is a smooth dent, about 4mm in width.  I don't like where it is (~220mm from top of spar).  What is your take?  



Thanks,

Tom

	


  Dave Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA

  Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?

   No need to miss a message. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43910/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ]Get email on-the-go [/url]

with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43910/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ]Get started.[/url] [quote][b]

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:26 am Post subject: Re: Rudder Spar Dent

Aluminum is relatively cheap and it looks like you haven't done much work on it. It's probably inconsequential, but why start your build with a main structural part that is defective. I would just get a new one. The old spar will make a great doubler down the road when installing antennas, ELT's etc. so it won't go to waste.

tommylutz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:09 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

Thanks for the advice.  The dent is 220mm from the top of the spar, so there is no doubler there.  Depending on what the engineers at ZAC say, I may just get a new one as Steve suggested.   I'll make sure to post with ZAC's response. 



Tom



On 3/30/07, David Downey <  planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com (planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:[quote]according to your post it is a "smooth dent". I take this to mean that it does not have either a mark at the bottom of the impression or sharp departures at the limits of the depression. If that is so, as I recal, this is under the footprint of the spar flange angle doubler. It might be possible to bump it back to contour without cracking or tearing the material using a stick made from maple with a relatively small radius on the end and a block of pine on the outside as an anvil. This would allow the doubler to lie shear on the inner surface of the flange as designed. 

   

  Ideally, the hole pattern will straddle this defect. Being so near the tip, is does not see a lot of bending and may not be a critical issue. ZAC will know. Just be cautious if it is near and beyond the end of the doubler. If something were to happen you would not be able to inspect for it... 



Tom Lutz <tommylutz(at)gmail.com (tommylutz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  Grrrr....mad at myself for either (1) not noticing this upon shipment OR (2) causing it myself somehow, unknowingly. 



I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures.  It is a smooth dent, about 4mm in width.  I don't like where it is (~220mm from top of spar).  What is your take?  



 Thanks,

Tom

	


  Dave Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA

  Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?

   No need to miss a message. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43910/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail%0A]Get email on-the-go [/url]

with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile.  [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43910/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail%0A]Get started.[/url] [quote][b]   http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List  http://forums.matronics.com  [quote][b]

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

if this is the main rudder spar, its kind of hazzy, just build it it does not look bad, the rudder is so over built a ding is nominal.



--

tommylutz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

BTW I am not an "anal engineer."  I am an electrical engineer that happens to be "anal."  Thought I'd clarify before any of you got the wrong ideas.



 On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz(at)gmail.com (tommylutz(at)gmail.com)> wrote: [quote]A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are probably right.  I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts through the material, it is most likely OK.  Being the anal engineer that I am, I sent photos over for a more thorough evaluation.  I should be hearing back by close-of-business today.  



 On 3/30/07, Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net  (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega < amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net  (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)>



if this is the main rudder spar, its kind of hazzy, just build it it does not look bad, the rudder is so over built a ding is nominal.



--

tommylutz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are probably right.  I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts through the material, it is most likely OK.  Being the anal engineer that I am, I sent photos over for a more thorough evaluation.  I should be hearing back by close-of-business today. 



 On 3/30/07, Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)> wrote: [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net  (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)>



if this is the main rudder spar, its kind of hazzy, just build it it does not look bad, the rudder is so over built a ding is nominal.



--

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

Tom, if you decide that you need to press out the  dent, you can take two pieces of 1/8" extruded aluminum el cheapo angle from  Lowes or Home Depot, round the exterior corner of one of them. The round edge  must fit the bend radius of the spar. Use the rounded piece on the inside and  the unaltered piece on the outside and squeeze the spar between the two with a  vise or clamps to press out the dent. Pressing dents out with an appropriate set  of dies is always easier than spooning or hammering.

  

 Dred

 [quote]   ---

tommylutz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

I just received a response from a ZAC engineer that looked at the photos.  He said that the dent is not a big deal, but if I am concerned about it, I can install another doubler in that area.  Of course, these are recommendations, and each situation is unique.  If you encounter a similar situation, you are best off seeking advice specific to your situation.  The following disclaimer at the end of the ZAC e-mail I received illustrates this pretty well: 

  

 "Technical Support Disclaimer: While we strive to ensure that the advice/information provided through our support is correct, Zenith Aircraft Company does not accept any responsibility for errors or omissions. Any advise or information that Zenith Aircraft Company gives you via any form of communication is not a guarantee that it will correct your problem. It is only offered as assistance to you. Zenith Aircraft Company will not be held responsible for any loss or damage as a result of our advise or information supplied. " 

  

 As always, take advice with a grain of salt, no matter what source it is from.  I also learned that ZAC does NOT recommend using a 1/2" drill bit to debur holes, as is presented in the metalworking 101 DVD. 

  

 I plan to continue construction as-is.  Adding a doubler in that location would mean popping the dent out, which I am not sure I can do without causing additional damage.

  

  

 Tom

  

  

 



 

 On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz(at)gmail.com (tommylutz(at)gmail.com)> wrote: [quote]BTW I am not an "anal engineer."  I am an electrical engineer that happens to be "anal."  Thought I'd clarify before any of you got the wrong ideas.  



 On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz(at)gmail.com (tommylutz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:   [quote]A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are probably right.  I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts through the material, it is most likely OK.  Being the anal engineer that I am, I sent photos over for a more thorough evaluation.  I should be hearing back by close-of-business today.  



 On 3/30/07, Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net   (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <  amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net  (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)>



if this is the main rudder spar, its kind of hazzy, just build it it does not look bad, the rudder is so over built a ding is nominal.



--

tommylutz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

That's a good thought -- I may do that.  Do you know where can I get 6061-T6 aluminum to make another doubler?  I'm not scratch building, so I don't have extra laying around.

 

 Tom

 

 

 On 3/30/07, Edward Moody II <dredmoody(at)cox.net (dredmoody(at)cox.net)> wrote: [quote]  Tom, if you decide that you need to press out the dent, you can take two pieces of 1/8" extruded aluminum el cheapo angle from Lowes or Home Depot, round the exterior corner of one of them. The round edge must fit the bend radius of the spar. Use the rounded piece on the inside and the unaltered piece on the outside and squeeze the spar between the two with a vise or clamps to press out the dent. Pressing dents out with an appropriate set of dies is always easier than spooning or hammering. 

  

 Dred

 [quote] ---

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:29 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

You will find it in:

  http://www.aircraftspruce.com

  depending on the thickness, the minimum would be in 2'X2' or 2'X4'. You  will need a bending brake unless you want to create it as a flat  doubler. Post the dimension of the doubler you are planning to make and  lets see if one of us scratch builder can send you a leftover.

  

  William Dominguez

  Zodiac 601XL Plans

  Tail Done. 

  Miami, Florida



Tom Lutz <tommylutz(at)gmail.com> wrote:[quote]  That's a good thought -- I may do that.  Do you know  where can I get 6061-T6 aluminum to make another doubler?  I'm not  scratch building, so I don't have extra laying around.

 

  Tom

  

 

  On 3/30/07, Edward Moody II <dredmoody(at)cox.net (dredmoody(at)cox.net)> wrote:  [quote]    Tom, if you decide that you need to  press out the dent, you can take two pieces of 1/8" extruded aluminum  el cheapo angle from Lowes or Home Depot, round the exterior corner of  one of them. The round edge must fit the bend radius of the spar. Use  the rounded piece on the inside and the unaltered piece on the outside  and squeeze the spar between the two with a vise or clamps to press out  the dent. Pressing dents out with an appropriate set of dies is always  easier than spooning or hammering.  

   

  Dred

  [quote]  ---

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

Yep, Aircraft Spruce and Specialty online or via  catalogue/phone. They stock almost any thickness and sizes dow to 2' x 2'. You  may want to stoclk a few different thicknesses in 2' x 4' or even 4' x 4' .There  is some expense there but I have gone back to scavenge my little cache of  aluminum sheet and angles quite a few times. Just this morning I cut and bent  some 6061-T6 to make mounting brackets for my eyeball vents since they are going  under the panel rather than in it.

  

 Dred

 [quote]   ---

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

yeah, but then you need to have a slight depression in the female die and a slightly tighter radius on the male die than the part - and only at the exact location of the dent. If not the part will never get back to nominal contour due to springback issues. Perhaps where this is, outside of the doubler nesting footprint, the matched angles are good enough.



Edward Moody II <dredmoody(at)cox.net> wrote:  [quote]        Tom, if you decide that you need to press out the dent, you can take two pieces of 1/8" extruded aluminum el cheapo angle from Lowes or Home Depot, round the exterior corner of one of them. The round edge must fit the bend radius of the spar. Use the rounded piece on the inside and the unaltered piece on the outside and squeeze the spar between the  two with a vise or clamps to press out the dent. Pressing dents out with an appropriate set of dies is always easier than spooning or hammering.

   

  Dred

  [quote]  ---

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Rudder Spar Dent

I don't know where you are located but if you stop by with the part I will either fix it or remake it for you.



How about that?

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

dont bother, just build the rudder, by what I see it has not bent the spar, just a ding,  the spar just needs to be straight.  other than that just build.



Juan



--

tommylutz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

Ed,



Thanks a lot for the advice.  I used the technique you described and came out with exceptional results, with the exception of ever-so-slight remaining deformation due to the factors Dave Downey described in a previous e-mail (elastic deformation -- the dent bounced back a little bit).  If I didn't put a big red circle in this picture, would you be able to tell? 



Tom



On 3/30/07, Edward Moody II <dredmoody(at)cox.net (dredmoody(at)cox.net)> wrote:[quote]        Tom, if you decide that you need to press out the  dent, you can take two pieces of 1/8" extruded aluminum el cheapo angle from  Lowes or Home Depot, round the exterior corner of one of them. The round edge  must fit the bend radius of the spar. Use the rounded piece on the inside and  the unaltered piece on the outside and squeeze the spar between the two with a  vise or clamps to press out the dent. Pressing dents out with an appropriate set  of dies is always easier than spooning or hammering.

  

 Dred

 [quote]   ---

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dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

I couldn't see it with the big red  circle. As others told you, it was no big deal but I could tell that it was  bugging you as it would have bugged me. You made an excellent fix without going  overboard at all. True, some other guy's plane will fly just fine and nobody  will know whether or not he straightened out his dings. So what? You  know you took time to do it to your satisfaction. Cool huh?

  

 Looky what I did today.... farted around for almost  four hours to do Naca scoops and eyeball vent mounts

  

 Dred

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tommylutz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:33 pm Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent

Sweet... nice job!



On 3/30/07, Edward Moody II <dredmoody(at)cox.net (dredmoody(at)cox.net)> wrote:[quote]        I couldn't see it with the big red  circle. As others told you, it was no big deal but I could tell that it was  bugging you as it would have bugged me. You made an excellent fix without going  overboard at all. True, some other guy's plane will fly just fine and nobody  will know whether or not he straightened out his dings. So what? You  know you took time to do it to your satisfaction. Cool huh?

  

 Looky what I did today.... farted around for almost  four hours to do Naca scoops and eyeball vent mounts

  

 Dred



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