Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

582 Starter Problem

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: 582 Starter Problem

I just recently developed a problem with the  starter on my 582.  I have a one year old Odyssey 18 Amp battery that used  to spin the engine just fine.  Now, I get one turn and not enough to  start.  The battery indicates almost fully charged and the Key West is  putting out between 13.8 and 14.5 volts.  I've pulled the battery and  it does seem to have a problem when charging with my battery charger.  Will  also replace/clean all ground wires from the battery to the engine.  Just  wondering worst case if the "Starter" itself could be the culprit.   Any first hand experience with this?

    [quote][b]

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: 582 Starter Problem

Those Odysseys are supposed to be good for 5 or 6  years, but it's possible that you have a shorted cell.  Unlikely the  starter.  Cleaning the ground and power lugs is a good idea.  Have you  tried to jump it?  If it spins right up like normal then you have a bad  battery.  If it doesn't, then suspect the starter or  terminals.

 Good luck.

 Deke

  

 [quote]   ---

henrysfork1(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: 582 Starter Problem

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  The starter is probably dragging.

  

 Do not archive

 [quote]   ---

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: 582 Starter Problem

Deke,

     That's when things started to  get strange.  I took a fully charged car battery and jumped the  system.  The voltage dropped on both batteries after one swing of the  prop.  In order to get the engine to start I had to temporarily remove the  prop.  Got a good and fast start...Once the engine warmed up (being very  careful on the RPM's), I shut down and reinstalled the prop.  Warm engine  started right up on the first swing????  The above makes me suspect of a  bad ground connection or, the dreaded bad starter.  Troubleshooting to  continue....

     Something is telling me not to  sell my plane.  I had an Air Force Major on the way to PHF this morning to  purchase my plane and I really needed to get it started.  About half way to  my location, his aircraft radio bit the dust.  He had to turn around since  he couldn't enter class "D" without radio.  This is the second time a  prospective buyer has had to cancel due to similar junk.  Something ain't  right here???

  

 Don Smythe

 [quote]   ---

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject: 582 Starter Problem

Ok, can you be a little more specific.  What is a  dragging starter?

  

 Don Smythe

  

 Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject: 582 Starter Problem

some time my starter will just buzz the prop will move a little then the  next hit of the switch it will role just fine and start.  my problem is  different than yours don  maybe a little feed back on mine too good luck  don mal michigan



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

tstaley(at)centurytel.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: 582 Starter Problem

Don,

 A dragging starter is caused by the armiture  rubbing against the housing of the starter as it spins around turning the  motor.

 LeRoy

   [quote][b]

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: 582 Starter Problem

Hi Don and Malcholm,



 	  Quote: 	
		  From Malcolm,


	


"some time my starter will just buzz the prop will

move a little then the next hit of the switch it will

role just fine and start.  my problem is different

than yours don.  maybe a little feed back on mine too

good luck don mal michigan"

.................................

 	  Quote: 	
		  From Don Smythe


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Deke,

     That's when things started to get strange.  I

 took a fully charged car battery and jumped the

 system.  The voltage dropped on both batteries after

 one swing of the prop.  In order to get the engine

 to start I had to temporarily remove the prop.  Got

 a good and fast start...Once the engine warmed up

 (being very careful on the RPM's), I shut down and

 reinstalled the prop.  Warm engine started right up

 on the first swing????  The above makes me suspect

 of a bad ground connection or, the dreaded bad

 starter.  Troubleshooting to continue....

...............................................
	


Malcholm, yours' do sound different if Don is jumping

to the aircraft battery, not the engine....



Don, hopefully a bad ground or starter switch.

Consider this though:



I don't know the construction of your starters, but

there are only a few variations on the theme.  Each

has to have some kind of solenoid to engage the

starter to the flywheel and an internal high amp

contact to power the starter motor.  (Unless you have

a starter/generator connected to the engine all the

time.  Not likely?)



I did a field repair on mine a few years ago when the

starter solenoid contactor failed internally.  In my

case, the solenoid is supposed to engage the starter

and also make the high amp connection that gives the

electron path to the starter motor.  This connector

had burned sufficiently to not allow high current

flow.  First it was intermitant, then it got like

yours Malcholm, where it would hardly make contact.



If this is the case, you should hear the solenoid

cleanly snap the starter gear in place, but then the

starter motor acts weak.  If the solenoid or contacts

to it are bad, or the battery is weak, the solenoid

itself vibrates or engages weakly.  Since this all

happens very fast, you really have to listen for the

solenoid action before the starter action.



In my case, I was not able to find someone who was

able to rebuild mine quickly, or get a replacement, so

I made my own contact out of the brass end of a large

$10 fuse from the local hardware store.  My repair

lasted until I sold..... ah.... my old Dodge Caravan

at 200,000 miles.  Sorry, but a starter is a starter.



If you want to trouble shoot it, try the following:



With the prop and ignitions off, connect your jumper

cables directly to the starter cable bolt at the

starter and to a ground on the motor.  Battery

negative to ground of course.  This takes the aircraft

battery and other wiring out of the loop.



With a third small jumper wire, connect the jumper

battery + at the starter contact to the small wire

post on the starter used for your start switch.  Be

careful!  That should turn the starter over.  Make

sure the ignitions are off first.  Electrons can flow

in directions you don't anticipate.



If it spins up like new, you have a wiring problem on

the plane or bad battery, not a bad starter.



If it still shows problems, it is either the starter

motor, or the starter solenoid.  That is all you have

connected.



Don, you said it worked OK with the prop off.  You can

carefully try this with the prop on, just be careful

when the starter motor swings the prop.  It may take

this greater load to make the problem occur, if your

solenoid contact can still pass some amps, but not

full power.



This is not to start the engine, as I said.  Keep the

fuel and ignition off.  All this is done with a jumper

battery up front taking the plane's systems out of the

loop.



Malcholm, yours does sound like the starter more than

Don's, but both of you need to troubleshoot to know.



On the starter, you could also have a bad solenoid,

bad solenoid contact, dirty armature contacts, or a

physical problem like case rubbing, or bad bearings. 

Don't know if you really want to break it down past

starter or airplane though.  Just something if you

want to repair your own starter.  Some things are

easier than others.



Hope that helps,



Kurt S.



PS:  When I was young, I took stuff apart all the time

at home.  Good education, but when I got older and it

stopped being cute, I had to learn to put it all back

together too.  :~(

 

Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. 

Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: 582 Starter Problem

Good morning Mr. Smythe.  Yup, that's pretty  strange all right.  Personally, I'm skeptical about the prop having  anything to do with it.  Probably just coincidence and one of those things  that only confuses the issue, causing you to go off in the wrong direction in  your trouble shooting.   Kurt's  idea about taking the electrics out of the picture by going directly to the  starter has merit, but isn't your starter at the back of the engine inside that  cubby hole in the firewall?  Still, you can just use one jumper lead to  engine ground and the other to the main power lead going to the starter wherever  you can hook on to it.  

 The reason I don't think it's the starter itself is because they will  usually give warnings long before they give up the ghost.  

 If none of this works, the Aeroelectric list has a  bunch of electrical geeks that love this sort of thing and I'm sure they could  lead you to a quick resolution.

 Good luck.

 Deke

  

 ---

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: 582 Starter Problem

Deke,

     The only thing about  the prop is, when removed it takes all the load off the  starter/engine.  Even a weak battery will spin the Rotax with no prop  load.  You're right, the starter is tucked away so I can't get to the  hot lug.  I don't like jumping 12 volts directly to a starter.  You  always get a nice arch before you can get good contact.  I would  prefer to take the 12 volts directly to the starter through a temporary knife  switch or similar device.

     BTW, it has always been a strong  suggestion to "never" run a 582 with the prop removed.  I can tell you this  much, if you ever do this you better make sure the throttle is off and stand by  with your fingers on the kill switch.  As soon as the engine starts it will  want to idle at about 2400 RPM's.  As the engine warms up the RPM's will  creep up to about 3000 + by the time you get to operating temps.  Don't  even try to give any throttle or it can run away easily.

  

 Don Smythe

 Do Not Archive

  

 ---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:40 am Post subject: 582 Starter Problem

I was talking to out old, MIA, quick lipped, bud  Dave F.  He runs a  shop and rebuilds starters among other  things.  (Jack of all trades)  He said he got banned... Another topic  not for here.



I asked him if he thought the bushings on the starter might  be worn to the point that the starter would not produce the proper torque to  swing the engine.



What he said was:



Denzo brushes and a clean of  commutator bars would likely fix it .  All avail but NOT at Rotax.

The  starter drive on C box is expen$ive........  The housing the starter bolts  to is $350 alone.



He also warned me not to tighten the starter too tight  and break that part of the case - it is rubber mounted..........  It should  have about 1mm clearance ( .040" )



He doubts it is a bad connection but  said it was a possibility.



If you want to contact him directly on this  try:  davef(at)cfisher.com (davef(at)cfisher.com) 



I thought this was pertinent to the list so I  decided to chance my membership and make the post for  him.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Malcolmbru(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: 582 Starter Problem

I think the need to add moor power to the starter or take the drag off the  motor is a sign the starter is wearing out. cleaning some connectors   and  replacing the other electric parts is all you can do before  you take the motor out and I know how much that  sucks.   A  place like leaf or lockwood can tell you  in what order to replace the  parts and which ones fix the problem most commonly . If I called them tomorrow  they could tell me why my starter acts the way it douse and how to fix  it.  mal   



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum