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joe(at)kfiz.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:27 am Post subject: Bailing out of a 601!

My friend Lee had a Cessna 150 Aerobat and I can remember seeing some sort 

of quick release door handle on the inside that would remove the door from 

the hinges in flight to make it easier for a parachute jump. What in the 

world would you do in a 601 XL if you had to bail out in a hurry? Has anyone 

ever bailed out of a 601? I remember going up with Lee and betting him a 

steak dinner that he couldn't make me sick. I wound up treating at Ponderosa 

that night.



I don't know much about the legality of aerobatics because I like to fly 

almost straight and level, but for the guys who like that kind of flying 

would it be worth it to figure out some kind of a hinge pin system that 

would release the canopy from it's hinges in case a bail out was needed? Do 

the FAR's require a parachute when doing aerobatics? I have nothing against 

that kind of flying, but life is too great and too short to take unnecessary 

chances.



Joe in Oshkosh



601XL

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:26 am Post subject: Bailing out of a 601!

You'd have to rig a mechanism to release the hinge pins, gas cylinder  

pins and latch simultaneously, even then you'd probably catch the  

canopy in the face as it departed. You could have a BRS system  

installed, or rig up some way to jettison just a big chunk of the  

plexiglas. Primer cord?



On Apr 3, 2007, at 4:27 AM, Joe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 My friend Lee had a Cessna 150 Aerobat and I can remember seeing  

 some sort of quick release door handle on the inside that would  

 remove the door from the hinges in flight to make it easier for a  

 parachute jump. What in the world would you do in a 601 XL if you  

 had to bail out in a hurry? Has anyone ever bailed out of a 601? I  

 remember going up with Lee and betting him a steak dinner that he  

 couldn't make me sick. I wound up treating at Ponderosa that night.



 I don't know much about the legality of aerobatics because I like  

 to fly almost straight and level, but for the guys who like that  

 kind of flying would it be worth it to figure out some kind of a  

 hinge pin system that would release the canopy from it's hinges in  

 case a bail out was needed? Do the FAR's require a parachute when  

 doing aerobatics? I have nothing against that kind of flying, but  

 life is too great and too short to take unnecessary chances.




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

soarmoore2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: Bailing out of a 601!

FAR 91.307(c) requires a chute when executing .... acro, except (d) allows performance of spins, etc without chutes for tests and certain training. Doing it for fun requires a chute; doing it for training doesn't. Go figure.

   

  Do not archive.



Joe <joe(at)kfiz.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe" 



My friend Lee had a Cessna 150 Aerobat and I can remember seeing some sort 

of quick release door handle on the inside that would remove the door from 

the hinges in flight to make it easier for a parachute jump. What in the 

world would you do in a 601 XL if you had to bail out in a hurry? Has anyone 

ever bailed out of a 601? I remember going up with Lee and betting him a 

steak dinner that he couldn't make me sick. I wound up treating at Ponderosa 

that  No need to miss a message. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43910/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ]Get email on-the-go [/url]

with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43910/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ]Get started.[/url] [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Bailing out of a 601!

I think we'd probably all be surprised how you could in fact get out of a 601 if you had to. Unlatch and stand up might work. I'm not saying you wouldn't get banged up but I think you would be able to get out.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

japhillipsga(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: Bailing out of a 601!

Gig, the thought scares the hell out of me, but I suppose if you inverted and pushed the stick forward in a negative G, popped the top and un buckled you might just fall out. Course, if you had enough control to do this why not land ? Maybe if flame is an issue it might be a terminal option. Most of us don't where a parachute.  My bigger concern would be how to exit if inverted in the mud and more likely to happen. Best of Luck, Bill of Georgia  

    

  

 --

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:54 am Post subject: Bailing out of a 601!

I can't remember where I read it, but I've been under the impression that an essential item for the toolkit for any aircraft with an upward opening canopy is a small rock hammer, e.g., 



 http://www.amazon.com/American-Science-Surplus-ROCK-HAMMER/dp/B000JSA77O



 The hammer must very securely mounted in the cockpit, in a place that you can reach while hanging upside down in your seat belt.



 I plan to have one in my XL.



 Terry



 

 At 02:03 PM 4/3/2007 -0400, you wrote:

 [quote] 

 Gig, the thought scares the hell out of me, but I suppose if you inverted and pushed the stick forward in a negative G, popped the top and un buckled you might just fall out. Course, if you had enough control to do this why not land ? Maybe if flame is an issue it might be a terminal option. Most of us don't where a parachute.  My bigger concern would be how to exit if inverted in the mud and more likely to happen. Best of Luck, Bill of Georgia  

  

  

 --

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Bailing out of a 601!

I agree most of us don't fly with a parachute though I have thought about doing so on the first few flights. And fire would be my primary concern and one of the few that bailing out would be the best option.



With a major structural failure the aircraft is going to probably spinning and twisting in such a way that getting out isn't an option in any aircraft.



Engine out just land it on the softest and cheapest thing you can find.



But a fire that would not give me time to land before burning up. I'd rather jump without a chute.



Morgan Hunter who built and I think designed the Corvair Personal Cruiser with it's forward opening canopy was wearing a chute when he flew into WW Corvair College 10.



Just for the record I'm not saying I think you need a chute in the 601 but I have thought about it.



 	  japhillipsga(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  Gig, the thought scares the hell out of me, but I suppose if you inverted and pushed the stick forward in a negative G, popped the top and un buckled you might just fall out. Course, if you had enough control to do this why not land ? Maybe if flame is an issue it might be a terminal option. Most of us don't where a parachute.  My bigger concern would be how to exit if inverted in the mud and more likely to happen. Best of Luck, Bill of Georgia  

    

  

 --

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Bailing out of a 601!

I was wrong the Corvair Personal Cruiser has a side tilting canopy.



Thought I'd get that in before the rush of e-mail corrections



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Bailing out of a 601!

My L16A has a jettisonable door similar to what was used in the later Citabrias.  The only case I ever heard of where a guy bailed out of such an aircraft was after the right wing somehow folded over the door after which he kicked out the windshield and exited.  He managed to miss the spinning prop and other major structures.



The concerns mentioned in other posts to this list are concerns to anyone who flys.  Indeed, the risk of fire is probably greater in some of the high performance factory made planes than in our homebuilts.



It is always a good idea to imagine what could go wrong and have a plan to deal with it.  Each of us must decide if the risk is worth the benefit.  For me, I plan to keep on flying.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Bailing out of a 601!

I'd rather put it down on the ground in a spot where I know it will do no harm to another, if I could. Seems to me that BRS and a fire extinguisher are better options than bailing.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Bailing out of a 601!

I'd imagine the bubble canopy would be pretty damn hard to open in flight considering fighter planes have the canopy hinge on the back to allow the canopy to go sailing back into the breeze when the guy jettisons. You'd think the canopy would have lift and would want to rise up on the front hinge, but it's probably counter-intutive (to a pilot anyway) and gets push down instead. More reasons for a gull wing door with break-away hinges, just pull the hinge pin with a big loop on the end and you're out.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: Bailing out of a 601!

The canopy will open in flight but not very far. I have had one side  

come loose in flight a few times due to not fully latching it before  

take-off and it's difficult, if not impossible to re-latch it in  

flight. It does want to lift up away from the rail. I believe someone  

reported on this list that they unlatched the canopy in flight once  

and it opened several inches and stayed there and caused no serious  

problem.

On Apr 4, 2007, at 10:28 AM, ashontz wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'd imagine the bubble canopy would be pretty damn hard to open in  

 flight considering fighter planes have the canopy hinge on the back  

 to allow the canopy to go sailing back into the breeze when the guy  

 jettisons. You'd think the canopy would have lift and would want to  

 rise up on the front hinge, but it's probably counter-intutive (to  

 a pilot anyway) and gets push down instead. More reasons for a gull  

 wing door with break-away hinges, just pull the hinge pin with a  

 big loop on the end and you're out.



 --------

 Andy Shontz

 CH601XL - Corvair

 www.mykitlog.com/ashontz


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: Bailing out of a 601!

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Haven't gotten there yet, but I was thinking of reversing the canopy hinge  bolts, leaving the nuts off, using some light holddown to keep them in place,  and a cable-operated handle to pull the bolts and let the canopy "fly" off.  Under those circumstances, though, you wouldn't need a light holddown. You'd  probably generate a King Kong force. ((A BRS chute would be better)

  

 Paul Rodriguez

 601XL/Corvair

 (*&^%$# canopy!

 [quote]   ---

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: Bailing out of a 601!

You'd also need to rig some way to release the gas shocks. You'd also  

need to bolt something to the fuselage above the instrument pane to  

deflect the canopy upward so it won't take your head off on its way  

overboard. You could always build an open cockpit version, then it  

would be easy to get out. 

On Apr 4, 2007, at 3:51 PM, <paulrod36(at)msn.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Haven't gotten there yet, but I was thinking of reversing the  

 canopy hinge bolts, leaving the nuts off, using some light holddown  

 to keep them in place, and a cable-operated handle to pull the  

 bolts and let the canopy "fly" off. Under those circumstances,  

 though, you wouldn't need a light holddown. You'd probably generate  

 a King Kong force. ((A BRS chute would be better)


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Bailing out of a 601!

Don't forget there are the hold open pistons there as well. And they'd have to release.



I saw a picture somewhere of Van's RV12 test plane and there was a canopy ejection handle. I doubt it will be there on the final design but it was there for the tests.



I'm not a fan of BRS. Many if not most of the times they would be of use the aircraft could be landed without them. Look at the accident database and figure how many of the fatal 601 accidents would have not have been fatal with a BRS. I think you'd find that it isn't that large a number.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Haven't gotten there yet, but I was thinking of reversing the canopy hinge bolts, leaving the nuts off, using some light holddown to keep them in place, and a cable-operated handle to pull the bolts and let the canopy "fly" off. Under those circumstances, though, you wouldn't need a light holddown. You'd probably generate a King Kong force. ((A BRS chute would be better)

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: Bailing out of a 601!

I don't have extensive experience with Vans  aircraft but the two RV7-As that I have been in and around both have canopy  relase mechanisms. I don't think it is a feature limited to testing prototypes.  The release is a T handle that when pulled works a set of levers which pull the  canopy release pins inward. I'm not sure but I think that the entire canopy  hinge assembly leaves as a unit, gas lift struts and all. I can check it out and  report back if the listers feel it is important. 

  

 My feeling is to go with what CH designed and  use either a rock hammer as suggested or carry one of those auto escape  tools which combine a seat bemt cutter and a window smashing hammer. An amature  designed canopy release would make the designer the pioneer and history shows  that pioneers get all the arrows.

  

 Oh yeah, and I hope the det cord suggestion was  just graveyard humor.

  

 Dred

 [quote]-->    Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net (wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net)>



Don't    forget there are the hold open pistons there as well. And they'd have to    release.



I saw a picture somewhere of Van's RV12 test plane and there    was a canopy ejection handle. I doubt it will be there on the final design but    it was there for the tests.[b]

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: Bailing out of a 601!

Good way to let smoke out.. Joe N101HD

---

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: Bailing out of a 601!

Don't forget "while it's on the way back to knock the tail off", and don't 

forget all that air that going to ram into that luggage shelf behind you 

with no windshield to deflect the wind. I think we should forget this 

bailing out thing, and move on to something that will work and a lot more 

sensible,  A $100.000 dollar ejection seat from the Navy.I 'am almost sure 

we could get a good price if we buy 10 at a time.Who's up for that? 

Joe N101HD

---

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: Bailing out of a 601!

Most of Vans aircraft are designed for aerobatics and many of them  

are often flown aerobatically. The 601 is not designed for much in  

the way of aerobatics. The ability to bail out easily is more of an  

issue for an aerobatic airplane than for the 601.



I'm more concerned with getting out of the plane on the ground if I  

happen to wind up off airport somewhere belly up. I found a multi- 

purpose tool at Harbor Freight that has a hatchet blade on one side,  

a hammer on the other and a nail puller claw sticking out the end.  

It's heavy enough to break through the canopy and the claw could be  

used as a make-shift shovel to dig out with. Its actually been much  

handier to have around than a rock hammer, I've used it several times  

to drive my tie down stakes and once used it to dig the packed in  

soil out of the padeyes at Bacon County airport so I could use them  

to tie down on my way to Sun'N'Fun. And I can cut up firewood at my  

campsite with it too.



I'm not sure one of those automotive escape tools would do so well on  

plexiglas. They are designed to shatter safety glass and do a good  

job at that but they don't seem heavy enough to do a decent job on  

plexiglas.



Yes, the det cord remark was intended as humor. 

On Apr 4, 2007, at 5:12 PM, Edward Moody II wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I don't have extensive experience with Vans aircraft but the two  

 RV7-As that I have been in and around both have canopy relase  

 mechanisms. I don't think it is a feature limited to testing  

 prototypes.



 My feeling is to go with what CH designed and use either a rock  

 hammer as suggested or carry one of those auto escape tools which  

 combine a seat bemt cutter and a window smashing hammer.



 Oh yeah, and I hope the det cord suggestion was just graveyard humor.




	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: Bailing out of a 601!

I think that a 601 canopy could , under the right cond. could hold up to 

flip over,in dirt , due to it's egg shape  if so youre going to have to go 

out the floor  or side the hatchet is the ans. auto break out tool is  made 

for the tempered glass in the side  and rear windows of a car or truck

---

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