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Steve Boetto
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 365
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Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:36 am Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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To All,
Just got done building my fuel tank for my Firefly that I pulled from a mold I built last week.
I have not drilled and tapped the holes for the fittings yet but the hard points are in place for a pickup in the small sump in the bottom, a vent in the bump on top and an upper and lower fitting for a sight gauge. Total weight is a mere 2.5 lbs including the Usher Aviation filler cap. It is sized for a direct drop in for the Firefly. I will let you know how it works in a few weeks.
Steve Boetto
Firefly 007 on Floats
See what's free at AOL.com.
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Paul Petty
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 226 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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Wow Steve thats pretty! You da man with that fiberglass no doubt!
do not archive
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_________________ Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
912 UL 70" warp |
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Steve Boetto
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 365
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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In a message dated 4/7/2007 4:29:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, paulpetty(at)myway.com writes:
Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <paulpetty(at)myway.com>
Wow Steve thats pretty! You da man with that fiberglass no doubt!
do not archive
--------
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
Final assembly!
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Thanks Paul,
I have been wanting to build a tank for awhile but did not get to it. Just goes to show you though that it is hard to improve on the original design. I added 1.5 lbs to my Firefly.
Steve Boetto
do not archive
See what's free at AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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Craig.Nelson(at)heraeus.c Guest
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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Steve
I to am impressed with your workmanship. What type of mo0ld did you make? And what material did you use for the mold?
Uncle craig
Don’t archive
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N27SB(at)aol.com
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 9:27 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Fiberglass Fuel Tank
In a message dated 4/7/2007 4:29:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, paulpetty(at)myway.com writes:
Quote: |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <paulpetty(at)myway.com>
Wow Steve thats pretty! You da man with that fiberglass no doubt!
do not archive
--------
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
Final assembly!
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Thanks Paul,
I have been wanting to build a tank for awhile but did not get to it. Just goes to show you though that it is hard to improve on the original design. I added 1.5 lbs to my Firefly.
Steve Boetto
do not archive
See what's free at AOL.com.
Quote: | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List | 01234
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Ifyou receive this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. [quote][b]
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Steve Boetto
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 365
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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Thanks Craig, It is a 2 part Split mold that incorporates a joggle to allow for an internal overlap seam. This is a negative draft shape so you have to go two part. The first generation tooling that you see here is what I pulled the parts off. If I need to make more I will pull a Mold Master from these and make a production mold.
I used basic Polyester Resin and tooling quality Gelcoat. The Tank you saw on the past post is actually a trial run to see if everything goes together and a final real version will be made of resins more suitable for gasoline and the newer 10% ethanol fuels.
The lower part of the tank is the same part with the flange cut off. It can be cut to any length to allow for a range of 5 gal through 9 gal.
I understand that you have done quite a bit of glass work so I am interested in your input.
Steve Boetto
FF 007
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icrashrc
Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 247 Location: Mishawaka, In
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Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:09 am Post subject: Re: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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So what is a suitable resin for gasoline and gasohol?
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_________________ Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
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Steve Boetto
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 365
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Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:15 am Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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In a message dated 4/9/2007 9:12:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, icrashrc(at)aol.com writes:
Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "icrashrc" <icrashrc(at)aol.com>
So what is a suitable resin for gasoline and gasohol?
--------
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive
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Hi Scott,
I have been getting up to speed on that recently. Years ago I used Safe T Poxie on a Long EZ. I checked the 22 year old tanks last year and they were still perfect. However only Avgas has been used. Gasoline and Gasohol is a different story.
In the past some epoxies were sensitive to the toluene and other additives in Hi test but regular leaded was ok. The new problem appears to be Ethanol. The boat industry is getting hit hard with this because many older boats had built in fiberglass tanks that worked for years but are now failing due to 10% ethanol mix.
Most companies seem to be using vinyl ester and a few are coating the tanks with a special Phenol based epoxy.
SO, As far as My Opinion, I plan to use vinyl ester for the tank construction and then coat the inside with Phenol epoxy. I also plan to avoid the use of 10% ethanol which is easy here in Florida . I will also keep some test samples in fuel and monitor them from time to time. You can also get some tell tale signs on your spark plugs if the Ethanol is oxidizing the resin matrix.
The nice thing about the Firefly is that you can remove the tank in minutes and replace if needed. Since this is a molded part I can build new ones as needed.
Continued research will be done while I am at SnF this year. It will be interesting to see how some of the composite AC companies are handling this Issue.
steve
do not archive
See what's free at AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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icrashrc
Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 247 Location: Mishawaka, In
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:53 am Post subject: Re: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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Steve,
Thanks for the info. Let us know if your tank stands the test of time or if you discovery a new miracle resin (at) S-n-F.
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_________________ Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
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Steve Boetto
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 365
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:19 am Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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Scott,
Great news, got to talk to an engineer at one of the resin mfg yesterday. There are several formulas that have already addressed the ethanol situation. He has been testing samples in the lab for some time now and gave me two to choose from. What is interesting is that a mixture of 15% ethanol and gasoline is far more caustic than 100% ethanol.
The main problem that I have is that gasohol is not available here. If someone would like test some samples or a tank for me let me know.
Steve
See what's free at AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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captainron1(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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I was faced with the same question, as to the type of tank to construct for the M3X. I took the easy way out and constructed it out of aluminum 5000 series. The tanks are light made out of .050 and strong. I found a shop that does those for boats and RV's, build them. I drew the plans and faxed it over to them and without ever seeing the people had the tanks constructed. I picked them up on my way back from Vegas (went to see Bob Seger there) at Lake Havasu AZ. Never saw any of those people, it was Sunday they left the tanks for me in the back of the shop. These tanks are exactly the way I wanted them. It looks like I will have around 27 gallons of computed fuel. Will have to wait for a fill up to know exactly.
I am not by any means knocking composite fuel tanks, its just that to me it seems much simpler to pay someone some extra bucks get top quality stuff and be done with that.
Ron (Arizona)
=====================================
---- N27SB(at)aol.com wrote:
=============
In a message dated 4/9/2007 9:12:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
icrashrc(at)aol.com writes:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "icrashrc" <icrashrc(at)aol.com>
So what is a suitable resin for gasoline and gasohol?
--------
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive
Hi Scott,
I have been getting up to speed on that recently. Years ago I used Safe T
Poxie on a Long EZ. I checked the 22 year old tanks last year and they were
still perfect. However only Avgas has been used. Gasoline and Gasohol is a
different story.
In the past some epoxies were sensitive to the toluene and other additives
in Hi test but regular leaded was ok. The new problem appears to be Ethanol.
The boat industry is getting hit hard with this because many older boats had
built in fiberglass tanks that worked for years but are now failing due to 10%
ethanol mix.
Most companies seem to be using vinyl ester and a few are coating the tanks
with a special Phenol based epoxy.
SO, As far as My Opinion, I plan to use vinyl ester for the tank
construction and then coat the inside with Phenol epoxy. I also plan to avoid the
use of 10% ethanol which is easy here in Florida . I will also keep some test
samples in fuel and monitor them from time to time. You can also get some
tell tale signs on your spark plugs if the Ethanol is oxidizing the resin
matrix.
The nice thing about the Firefly is that you can remove the tank in minutes
and replace if needed. Since this is a molded part I can build new ones as
needed.
Continued research will be done while I am at SnF this year. It will be
interesting to see how some of the composite AC companies are handling this Issue.
----------------------
kugelair.com
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4639 Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:11 am Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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It looks like I will have around 27 gallons of computed fuel.
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| Ron (Arizona)
Ron:
Please post a photo of your new fuel tanks, I understand you ended up
with two.
Depending on the shape they ended up in, would be pretty easy to
calculate capacity of each.
I had to wait and use the one gal jug to compute the capacity of my
tank, but it is built in the same shape as the inside of the upper
rear area of the fuselage. An engineer could do it but not a high
school drop out.
john h
mkII
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_________________ John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Steve Boetto
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 365
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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In a message dated 4/10/2007 11:54:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, captainron1(at)cox.net writes:
Quote: | I was faced with the same question, as to the type of tank to construct for the M3X. I took the easy way out and constructed it out of aluminum 5000 series. The tanks are light made out of .050 and strong. I found a shop that does those for boats and RV's, build them. |
Hi Ron, I am familiar with Alum tanks. The problem is with weight. The composite Tank comes in at under 2 lbs. A welded Aluminum tank in this size range is almost 10 lbs. That is a prohibitive weight in a Firefly. Also, the Geometry for large tanks are more forgiving if you compare Gal/Lb. And by the way, Most Composite tanks did not have a problem until the advent of 10% Ethanol.
Has anyone thought about potential problems with Slosh Sealers and Ethanol? Will they suffer from similar breakdown from Ethanol? If I had a tank with a sealer in it I would be checking on what to expect if I use Gasohol.
My guess is that as 10% ethanol fuels are mandatory across the country more problems will arise.
Steve
See what's free at AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4639 Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:29 am Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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Steve B:
I sloshed my aluminum tank in 1991, with Randolph slosh and seal for
av gas, auto gas, and alcohol. A looked into the tank for the first
time in 15 years a few minutes ago. Proud to say it looks like brand
new in there.
Unfortunately, Randolph quit selling this slosh and sealer some years
ago. There are others out there, primarily for the antique auto,
tractor, motorcycle bunch. They are supposed to be alcohol resistant.
I have heard good and bad from people. I think the folks that had
problems were folks that did not adhere strictly to the instructions.
My first tank in the Firestar was not sloshed and it had a couple
nagging pin hole leaks I could not get to properly to seal. Big
mistake not sealing.
I have two marine tanks, welded, 5052 alum, that were professionally
machine welded, production tanks. Neither has ever had a problem
after riding in the back of the old Dodge Cummins for the past 11
years. Hard to match production type alum welding for quality.
john h
mkIII
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_________________ John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Steve Boetto
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 365
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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In a message dated 4/10/2007 2:30:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com writes:
Quote: | Hard to match production type alum welding for quality.
john h
mkIII
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I think that is the key John, I have seen welded tanks in boats fail but they are usually hand welded.
I am also looking at some spun Alum tanks as an option, Maybe that can get some weight out.
See you next week.
steve
do not archive
See what's free at AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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captainron1(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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Hell John I took a bunch of pictures this weekend and tried to get it posted here already. Including the rail mount that I just finished welding.
I forget my pass word for matronics and everything else, I am getting older every day and I don't like it. I already forgot what I was trying to tell you.
As for figuring out fuel volume its easy do a google for volume and they will give you the formula.
If you want I'll email you the photos and then you can post them for me.
Ron (Arizona)
BTW I am going to fly Col, Henke's Skybolt to Massachusets in the next few days. Gotta stop every 200 miles or so for a fill up. My butt is already numb.
========================================
---- John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:
=============
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
It looks like I will have around 27 gallons of computed fuel.
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| Ron (Arizona)
Ron:
Please post a photo of your new fuel tanks, I understand you ended up
with two.
Depending on the shape they ended up in, would be pretty easy to
calculate capacity of each.
I had to wait and use the one gal jug to compute the capacity of my
tank, but it is built in the same shape as the inside of the upper
rear area of the fuselage. An engineer could do
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4639 Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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Ron:
Send me the photos and I will post for you.
That should be a fun flight in the Skybolt. Get a good piece of
"firm" thermafoam.
Tell Jim Hanke I said hello. I may get back out to Siera Vista next
month after MV and Alvord Desert.
john h
mkIII
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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_________________ John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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DAquaNut(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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In a message dated 4/10/2007 1:30:30 PM Central Standard Time, jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com writes:
Quote: | I have two marine tanks, welded, 5052 alum, that were professionally
machine welded, production tanks. Neither has ever had a problem
after riding in the back of the old Dodge Cummins for the past 11
years. Hard to match production type alum welding for quality.
|
John,
If a .050 5052 tank is properly welded and tested, preferably TIG , there is no need for sealer in the tank. If the welder is not experenced then It probably does need some sealer, especially if the aluminum was not cleaned properly prior to the welding process.
Ed Diebel Do Not Archive
**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [quote][b]
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captainron1(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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These pics are taken today with the cell phone...
---- John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:
=============
Ron:
Send me the photos and I will post for you.
That should be a fun flight in the Skybolt. Get a good piece of
"firm" thermafoam.
Tell Jim Hanke I said hello. I may get back out to Siera Vista next
month after MV and Alvord Desert.
john h
mkIII
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--
kugelair.com
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1246
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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Steve Boetto wrote: |
I also plan to avoid the use of 10% ethanol which is easy here in Florida . |
How do you find gasoline that does not have ethanol ? I also live in Florida, but I have no idea of the gas I am using has ethanol or not...
Mike
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_________________ "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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mustangsally(at)semo.net Guest
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Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:16 am Post subject: Fiberglass Fuel Tank |
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Not sure about Florida, but in Missouri the pumps are labeled that have
ethanol.
Jerry
---
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