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Rotax Oil Filter question

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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:36 am Post subject: Rotax Oil Filter question

Fellow 912 Kolb Drivers ...



Following experience-based advice from this List, I recently installed a

"non-Rotax" brand oil filter on my 912ul, at my last oil change.



In the current issue of Kitplanes, the "Engine Beat" column talks about

oil filters.  Right there, in the middle of the page, in a box all by

itself, is a big warning, telling Rotax 912 owners that they should

NEVER use anything other than the prescribed Rotax oil filter, or you

might ruin your engine.  Reason was related to the bypass pressure in

the filter.



The Fram TG-3614 filter currently on my engine is an exact fit, and

appears to be keeping my engine oil clean enough.  These filters are

inexpensive, and easy to replace at 50-hour intervals.



I do not wish to rehash the oil filter thread that we discussed a few

months ago (pros & cons of the different filters, etc.)  I just have one

question.



What say ye graduates of the well-regarded Eric Tucker classes: Should I

be worried, and spring for the $$ Rotax oil filter?  Or can my 912 live

a normal life with an automotive oil filter?



Thanks in advance ...



Dennis Kirby

Gearing up for the MV trip next month, in

Cedar Crest, NM

Paul Petty

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Mississippi

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Rotax Oil Filter question

Dennis,



My only thought is why chance it with such an expensive engine? I have been selling oil filters for 28 years and only had 2 times that customers have came back on me "claiming" that the filter media came lose stopped up oil pump and burned up the engine. Both were 350 chevys and both were Fram. Only other auto engine that likes it's own brand of filter is Toyota. Mainly the older 22re engines. If you run anything but a Toyota filter you can be assured of a timing cover and chain replacement before 70K miles. Strange ey? My thoughts are with Erics. Rotax designed the filter to do what They wanted it to do. Fram Im sure dont even know what a Rotax 912 is! Plus if you were to have a problem and you felt it was a Rotax issue and you go to say a Rotax repair station with said problem, and they see that orange Fram filter, what do you think they are going to say right off the bat!



Just my point of view

_________________
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
912 UL 70" warp

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Rotax Oil Filter question

Hi Dennis,



I did a big study on oil filters pertaining to the 912 and have been to Rotax's classes. It would be hard for anyone who has not done a lot of research, torn filters apart and talked to the filter company engineers to comment on oil filters and know all the ins/outs and whys. 



It then just becomes speculation.

There are differences and the Rotax filter is not number one.



I don't want to type a long dissertation. 

Please call me today at my work in Tucson, Az at 520-791-5286 (I'm there 24 hrs so you can call up until 2100 hrs tonight) or at home tomorrow at 520-574-1080 and I will be happy to tell you more than you ever wanted to know about filters for the 912 engine.



Roger Lee

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: Rotax Oil Filter question

Paul, All oil filter manufacturers have charts that show equivalent filters from other manufacturers and legal staffs that would stop them if they're filters did not meet the standards for that type. Ratings for bypass pressure, burst strength, and filtering media capability can be found and assessed for the requirements needed. While most car manufacturers have their own labels for filters, I don't know of a single one that makes their own. 

As for 22RE Toyota engines, I'm on my third in the last twenty years. My son has had two. Neither of us has ever bought a filter from Toyota. Neither of us has ever had a timing cover leak, a timing chain failure, or any indication of inordinate wear timing chain wear. A small statistical sample, to be sure, but the only one I know personally.  

I use K & N oil filters on my current surface vehicles ( 2003 Hyundai Sante Fe, 2006 Toyota Tacoma Prerunner, and 1977 H-D Vibraglide) In the cars, I run Mobil 1 Extended Service full synthetic oil to the limit (15K miles). The bike doesn't go near that long between oil changes, but I like the K & N filters for it because I can safety wire them easily. When the HKS gets it's first oil change, it'll get a K & N HP 1003. 

MHO, you're results may be different.



Rick



On 4/13/07, Paul Petty <paulpetty(at)myway.com (paulpetty(at)myway.com)> wrote: [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" < paulpetty(at)myway.com (paulpetty(at)myway.com)>



Dennis,



My only thought is why chance it with such an expensive engine? I have been selling oil filters for 28 years and only had 2 times that customers have came back on me "claiming" that the filter media came lose stopped up oil pump and burned up the engine. Both were 350 chevys and both were Fram. Only other auto engine that likes it's own brand of filter is Toyota. Mainly the older 22re engines. If you run anything but a Toyota filter you can be assured of a timing cover and chain replacement before 70K miles. Strange ey? My thoughts are with Erics. Rotax designed the filter to do what They wanted it to do. Fram Im sure dont even know what a Rotax 912 is! Plus if you were to have a problem and you felt it was a Rotax issue and you go to say a Rotax repair station with said problem, and they see that orange Fram filter, what do you think they are going to say right off the bat! 



Just my point of view



--------

Paul Petty

Kolbra #12

Ms Dixie

Final assembly!





Read this topic online here:



 

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

Paul Petty

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Mississippi

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Rotax Oil Filter question

"I like the K & N filters for it because I can safety wire them easily"



 When I asked Eric Tucker why Rotax dont "saftey wire" their oil filters like GA His reply made good sence. He said "Sir with 70 psi oil pressure on the filter I challange ANYONE to spin it off by hand or wrench"    

do not archive

_________________
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
912 UL 70" warp

Paul Petty

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Mississippi

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Rotax Oil Filter question

Rick.



Im going to venture to say your use of the mobil ! is what saved your timing componets. Here everyone uses Castrol 20w50. Probably the worst oil on my shelf but it sells. Also the worst weight for this climate...but it sells and hey Im in the parts biz so........



Btw whats the latest recomended oil for the 912 (Rotax only) is it still the Honda semi syn?



do not archive

_________________
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
912 UL 70" warp

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Oil Filter question

 	  Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland. wrote: 	
		  



Right there, in the middle of the page, in a box all by

itself, is a big warning, telling Rotax 912 owners that they should

NEVER use anything other than the prescribed Rotax oil filter, or you

might ruin your engine.  Reason was related to the bypass pressure in

the filter.



	




Dennis



Rotax is trying to sell thier branded filters, which they do not manufacture for themselves.  Rotax uses fear and lack of knowlege as a way to sell their filters.   The bypass pressure is around 12 PSI on the rotax filter, and 13 on the replacement filters you might use.   That is a 1 PSI difference, get real, the engine will never care if the filter goes into bypass at 12 or 13 PSI.   Its either bypassing or its not.  If you had read Roger Lee's excellent article on this, you would have known this.   I went to the trouble to check Rogers facts from indepdendent sources, and found Rogers conclusions to be right on the money.



Paul hit on something with Fram filters, I have read about fram filter media comming apart from several different places, and now Paul says the same thing.  The only filter I would absalutely not use is a Fram.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: Rotax Oil Filter question

| The Fram TG-3614 filter

| Dennis Kirby

Dennis:



I have used three Rotax oil filters, the ones that came on the three 

912 engines I have installed.



I have used Fram TG3614 filters for 2,400+ hours on a 912UL and a 

912ULS.  I have no oil related problems.  I have not problems period.



You have to make your own decision on what you want to run.  Eric 

Tucker has to share the Rotax guidelines with is their oil filter.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: Rotax Oil Filter question

| Btw whats the latest recomended oil for the 912 (Rotax only) is it 

still the Honda semi syn?

 | Paul Petty

Hi Paul:



My less than an hour old 912ULS is full of its first taste of 

Valvoline Durablend 20W50.  John W and I both use this oil in our 

912ULS engines.  Takes care of the lead problem associated with 100LL.



If I was going to run a steady diet of mogas I would run Shell Rotella 

100% synthetic.



Rotax likes motor cycle oil, blend for 100LL and full synthetic for 

mogas.



john h

mkIII



PS:  If I have an oil filter induced engine failure, I'll put a Rotax 

filter on it before I take it to the shop.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Oil Filter question

Hi Guys,



Motorcycle oil is the number one recommended because it has shear additives. Oil will lose its viscosity when it is put under high mechanical stress and work like in a gearbox working through gears. This is why motorcycles have a shear additive because like the 912 motorcycles use the oil in the engine and the gearbox. Antifoaming agent are also added because of the higher mechanical action. Automotive oil does not have shear additives. Synthetic oil will not suspend lead and that's why we use semi-synthetic when we use 100LL more than 30% of the time.



Mike,

 The after market filters by-pass is 12 psi - 15 psi and the Rotax is 

13 psi - 15.9 psi (.9 bar-1.1 bar). Fram a few years ago did have a problem or two on the standard Fram filter and not the Tough Guard series. One psi on a coil spring in our application will not have any appreciable effect.

The Rotax filter like the Fram TG3614 is an average filter and does the job, especially as often as we change oil. But the better filter is absolutely a PurOne filter PL10241 and then a Mobile One filter.

The PurOne has a higher effiency rating, more square inches of filter medium and 3 types of filter medium that increase its effiency.



Rotax right now recommends Mobile One Racing 4T Synthetic oil.

Don't overlook Amsoil Motorcycle full Synth oil 10-40 or 20-50. It is actually rated somewhat better than Mobile One in antifoaming and shear wear.



Champion oil filters for Rotax is a company in Europe and not the Champion in the states. We had filters to fit the Rotax and don't believe they have the selection in Europe as we do or the quality.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Rotax Oil Filter question

Where do you get the Mobil 1 4t Racing Synthetic oil ???  I have never seen it at the auto parts store here   



Also John, where do you get the Shell Rotella Oil ?



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: Rotax Oil Filter question

Ok,  lets go back a few years...  and there are probably some left in

operation still today.   Aircraft engines never had oil filters, at all.

They use to run the oil through a  fine mesh screen.   The oil change period

was at 25 hours,  when they went to a filter the time doubled to 50 hours.



So lets look at the process of filtering oil in the rotax 912.  as long as

the filter medium will pass all the oil being pumped there is a 100%

filtering.    If the medium gets dirty or plugged, ( you have a big problem

any way).. or the pump is pushing the oil through till the pressure gradient

across the filter reaches 12 to 13 lbs.  Then the bypass opens,  the oil

that goes through the bypass will be returned to the engine mixed with the

filtered oil.



:  These  following numbers are pulled out of the air, and are for example

only  :

  

Lets say for example that: ( I'm thinking worst case here)

 50 % of the oil is being bypassed,

 You have 4 quarts on board

 The oil pump delivers 2 quarts a min



Every 2 min the engine will go through all the available oil on board.

Every 4 min  4 quarts of oil will go through the filter medium.

Every 6 min 98 to 99% of every drop will go through the filter.

On average all the oil will go through the filter element 15 times an hour.



If the engine is creating enough crud that every 6 min between filtering,

near every drop,  is a problem,  then the engine is going to fail within the

next hour anyway.  Remember the old aircraft engines would go 25 hours with

no filtering.  Even if an element rips open,,, still a small % will go

through the filter element...  and unless there is such a catastrophic

breakdown of the element as to plug everything up... the engine would still

get oil. The oil pressure gauge should warn you of a catastrophic type of

failure.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From the filters that I have cut open,,,  including lots of fram filters.  I

have had to pry and pull and cut and hack and dispel copious amounts of
	


energy to get the elements apart.  In an effort to see what the element had

filtered out of the oil. I've not seen a bad one yet.



Boyd

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: Rotax Oil Filter question

| Also John, where do you get the Shell Rotella Oil ?

|

| Mike



Mike B/Gang:



Shell Rotella Full Syn is avail at Wal*Mart.  Best buy for full syn 

oil.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: Rotax Oil Filter question

that's am interesting question. I can only relate to it by thinking as to what Rotax was trying to do. It seems to me that Rotax decided that since in 912 motor goes in airplanes it should have an aviation oil filter. Based on what you wrote I think they copied the CH48109 type filters that go on Lycomings. These filters have a bypass valve that will allow the oil to flow through under some over pressure situations. Such as the oil is too congealed because of cold to flow through the media or if there is so much gunk in your motor to plug it up. Would any of those be of concern to me for example. I don't think so, if I use synthetic oil which I would, it would flow in any condition that I care to fly. If there is too much gunk (metal) in the engine to plug up my filter to activate the bypass valve I think the engine would break before the valve would open. There is another possibility with the Rotax that under certain RPM combinations the oil pump may shove through more oil than the filter media can handle and then its essential that the bypass valve opens or you can burst the filter or some other such nasty stuff . If I were not to use the Rotax filter I would buy an oversize filter for a bigger motor that fits and use it. Just to be on the safe side.

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: Rotax Oil Filter question

Well this is funny Mike!

the only filter I ever use is Fram.  

Certainly for least 20 years. I think I started right after Consumer reports Magazine did an oil filter test and Fram filter after their exhaustive testing came on top. Even if they are not now and I don't know that they are not the top filtering can, I figure that if it was good enough 15 20 years ago its still good enough today. I am sure that they have improved to stay competitive. Never a problem with the Fram filter.



Ron (Arizona)



=========================

---- JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



=============


Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland. wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Right there, in the middle of the page, in a box all by

itself, is a big warning, telling Rotax 912 owners that they should

NEVER use anything other than the prescribed Rotax oil filter, or you

might ruin your engine. Reason was related to the bypass pressure in

the filter.


	




Dennis



Rotax is trying to sell thier branded filters, which they do not manufacture for themselves. Rotax uses fear and lack of knowlege as a way to sell their filters. The bypass pressure is around 12 PSI on the rotax filter, and 13 on the replacement filters you might use. That is a 1 PSI difference, get real, the engine will never care if the filter goes into bypass at 12 or 13 PSI. Its either bypassing or its not. If you had read Roger Lee's excellent article on this, you would have known this. I went to the trouble to check Rogers facts from indepdendent sources, and found Rogers conclusions to be right on the money.



Paul hit on something with Fram filters, I have read about fram filter media comming apart from several different places, and now Paul says the same thing. The only filter I would absalutely not use is a Fram.



Mike



--------

&quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=106746#106746



--

kugelair.com

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Oil Filter question

Hi Guys,



Real numbers are, the Rotax 912 uls pumps 4.5 gals. per minute and typically at pressures in the neighborhood of 40-70 psi (average is approximately 45-60 psi). The filters we use can handle at least 6 gal.+ per minute. Since Consumers Reports did there oil filter report some things have changed. I live by that magazine, but they can't do the same reports evey year, hince there are sometimes big gaps in certain product reports.



Mobile One Racing 4T should be in automotive stores. I have seen it in several. (Checker and Auto Zone)



Filters are not all the same. The old aircraft engines are not the same engine that a Rotax is and neither is the technology. Different engines, time periods, tolerances and knowledge.



Most filters use a standard paper element that has an effiency rating. Some paper elements filter finer particles than others, hice the effiency rating. PurOne has three filtering mediums not just one. Hince its 98% effiency rating.



I agree that if a filter plugs up enough to open the bypass then you have a far bigger problem on your hands than worrying about which filter was on the aircraft. Your engine is down right sick internally.

The Rotax European Champion filter is not strictly an aircarft filter, but designed after car and motorcycles. At the time in Europe some filters had coiled springs in the top of the filter and that is why Rotax doesn't use those types as they can poke a hole in the top of the filter from vibration and they set it up for a little higher pressures. They also upped the safety valve bypass pressures that was too low at the time. A lot of engines now have higher oil pressures due to our new style engines and changes in Manufacturing. Our engines now days are much closer tolerances from the yester-year aircraft engines. Usually the closer the tolerances the higher the oil pressure. Our engines are dry sump and that means our engine oil lubricates with crankcase pressure. Wet sumps are different.



While looking at oil don't bypass Amsoil motorcycle oil either 10-40 or 20-50. It has better antifoaming and better shear protection than most others.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:25 pm Post subject: Rotax Oil Filter question

Our engines are dry sump and that means our engine oil lubricates 

with crankcase pressure. Wet sumps are different.

 | --------

| Roger Lee

Roger:



How about explaining the above.  Does "dry sump" really mean "ur 

engine oil lubricates with crankcase pressure???  And "wet sumps are 

different."???



john h

mkIII|

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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