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vaughnray(at)bvunet.net
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 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:09 am Post subject: Z-16 |
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Good Morning Bob,
I have pasted my question to Lockwood and their answer. Unfortunately, I can't seem to figure out if your drawing complies with the issues delineated in their answer, even after attending your seminar. Please excuse my confusion, but the sparks don't seem to be propagating properly in my central processor.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS, Rotax 914
THEIR ANSWER
This is an AC generator system, the regulator is separate.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
The C is indeed a control circuit and must power the regulator at all times when the engine is running. When the engine is shut off it too (C terminal) must disconnect, or the battery will drain. The C lead must be in contact at all times while running or the regulator would fail internally. [quote] ---
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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:34 am Post subject: Z-16 |
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Gaye and Vaughn a écrit :
| Quote: | Good Morning Bob,
I have pasted my question to Lockwood and their answer. Unfortunately,
I can't seem to figure out if your drawing complies with the
issues delineated in their answer, even after attending your seminar.
|
Vaughn,
When wiring our 914 project, I made some study on the Rotax regulator.
After much research and bench testing, it appeared that wiring the C
wire to the the B terminal or the positive terminal of the capacitor
would ensure correct working of the system. So you don't sever the
connection of the control wire to a voltage reference.
But IF the regulator fails to regulate (a not so unlikely event, judging
from my buddies homebuilders mishaps), the capacitor will take the full
unregulated voltage of the alternator (up to 100V), and may well burst.
The latest version of Z16 seems to ensure a safe working : in case of OV
event, the alternator is isolated from the ships circuit. There is
nothing wrong with spinning the alternator on its own. I did it many
times on the bench.
On reconnecting, the regulator sees the battery reference voltage, and
starts regulating right away.
I must confess that after testing the Rotax regulator, I switched for a
Schicke GR4 regulator, with better regulation and thermal rejection.
Worked great for 120 flight hours.
I'm presently working on a Rotax 912S porject , and followed the latest Z16.
First flight expected within two months.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:20 am Post subject: Z-16 |
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At 10:09 AM 4/13/2007 -0400, you wrote:
| Quote: | Good Morning Bob,
I have pasted my question to Lockwood and their answer. Unfortunately, I
can't seem to figure out if your drawing complies with the issues
delineated in their answer, even after attending your seminar. Please
excuse my confusion, but the sparks don't seem to be propagating properly
in my central processor.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS, Rotax 914
THEIR ANSWER
This is an AC generator system, the regulator is separate.<?xml:namespace
prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
The C is indeed a control circuit and must power the regulator at all
times when the engine is running. When the engine is shut off it too (C
terminal) must disconnect, or the battery will drain. The C lead must be
in contact at all times while running or the regulator would fail internally.
|
An analysis of the schematic for the Ducati regulator
supplied with Rotax engines . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/regul_912.jpg
. . . confirms that the C terminal supplies operating power
for the low level electronics along with a path for bus votlage
sensing. Opening this lead while the engine running simply shuts
the regulator down assuming that input voltages from the
dynamo do not soar to deleterious levels . . . doubtful but
I have no way to prove it.
Further, their admonition about disconnecting "C" when
powered down to avoid battery drain is valid for systems
that do not have battery contactors or switches (like
ultralights I suppose).
Their response is typical of many suppliers who are exceedingly
limited in their understanding of the product they sell and
variabilities in how their customers might properly use
those products. In a nutshell . . . wire per Figure Z-16
of . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
. . . and do not concern yourself with any disagreement
you may perceive between the little information they have
to offer and well considered advice you might receive
elsewhere. It's unlikely that anyone on staff at your
supplier can discuss applications and options with
any logic. They're only parroting information fed to them
by others who are equally un-informed as to how you meet
your design goals.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
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rdunhamtn(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:50 am Post subject: Z-16 |
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Bob said...
"It's unlikely that anyone on staff at your supplier can discuss
applications and options with any logic. They're only parroting information
fed to them by others who are equally un-informed as to how you meet your
design goals."
How right you are! I called Jabiru USA to ask about the voltage regulator
they sell and install on their Jabiru engines and aircraft. They could not
tell me any more about the regulator than "It's solid state." They also
didn't seem to understand the physics of the PM Dynamo in their engines.
After looking at their wiring in the few planes under construction, I
concluded they could use a 'Connection Seminar! But, I kept my mouth shut. I
was there to learn from them. And it was a good seminar in all other
respects.
Rod
_________________________________________________________________
Download Messenger. Join the i’m Initiative. Help make a difference today.
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: Z-16 |
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At 06:49 AM 4/14/2007 -0400, you wrote:
| Quote: |
<rdunhamtn(at)hotmail.com>
Bob said...
"It's unlikely that anyone on staff at your supplier can discuss
applications and options with any logic. They're only parroting
information fed to them by others who are equally un-informed as to how
you meet your design goals."
How right you are! I called Jabiru USA to ask about the voltage regulator
they sell and install on their Jabiru engines and aircraft. They could not
tell me any more about the regulator than "It's solid state." They also
didn't seem to understand the physics of the PM Dynamo in their engines.
|
It's difficult for folks who WORK in this environment.
I just got home from delivering a Sandbox session to
engineering professionals from my place of work. Wichita
State lets me use a really nice classroom in the NIAR
building for Saturday morning classes.
These are folks who do not get an opportunity to exercise
the best they know how to do every day and it gets away
from you. We did a refresher course this morning on
DC motor characteristics that was well received. My
chief scientist gives me feedback on these efforts and
he has enthusiastically supported and attended the
classes since day-one.
| Quote: | After looking at their wiring in the few planes under construction, I
concluded they could use a 'Connection Seminar! But, I kept my mouth shut.
I was there to learn from them. And it was a good seminar in all other
respects.
|
It easy to blow off any need for knowing more about
things that you don't understand or are not interested
in. If I were selling that hardware, I have it apart
and certainly have schematics to refer to. It may not
be mortal sin to sell stuff you don't understand and
cannot explain . . . but it's not a venial sin either.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
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Max Johansson
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:06 am Post subject: Z-16 |
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Vaughn
The advice by Bob is good and sound but the draft regulator
schematics he refers to on the aeroelectric pages has mistakes
and a much better schematic version can be found on the page:
http://contrails.free.fr/images/large_regulator_2006.png
as pointed out by Gilles Thesee. In short the C lead both
powers the SCR firing circuits as well as provides the
battery voltage sensing input for the voltage regulation.
BR, Max
Flying and wiring 912s in Helsinki
| Quote: | The C is indeed a control circuit and must power the regulator at all
times when the engine is running. When the engine is shut off it too
too(C terminal) must disconnect, or the battery will drain.
The C lead must be in contact at all times while running or the
regulator would fail internally.
An analysis of the schematic for the Ducati regulator
supplied with Rotax engines . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/regul_912.jpg
. . . confirms that the C terminal supplies operating power
for the low level electronics along with a path for bus voltage
sensing. Opening this lead while the engine running simply shuts
the regulator down assuming that input voltages from the
dynamo do not soar to deleterious levels . . . doubtful but
I have no way to prove it.
Further, their admonition about disconnecting "C" when
powered down to avoid battery drain is valid for systems
that do not have battery contactors or switches (like
ultralights I suppose).
Their response is typical of many suppliers who are exceedingly
limited in their understanding of the product they sell and
variabilities in how their customers might properly use
those products. In a nutshell . . . wire per Figure Z-16
of . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
. . . and do not concern yourself with any disagreement
you may perceive between the little information they have
to offer and well considered advice you might receive
elsewhere. It's unlikely that anyone on staff at your
supplier can discuss applications and options with
any logic. They're only parroting information fed to them
by others who are equally un-informed as to how you meet
your design goals.
Bob . . .
|
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_________________
Max
Max Johansson, Helsinki, Finland
Building a CH701SP-912S
on CZAW amphibian floats |
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vaughnray(at)bvunet.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:26 am Post subject: Z-16 |
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Thank you Sir,
Unfortunately, I am so far from being able to understand the regulator schematic that you sent, it might as well be a woman. Bob's Z-16, rev 11 does keep the R, B+, and C leads connected as Lockwood likes. Breaking one yellow lead with the relay seems to isolate the internal alternator from the rest of the system. Since I will have a 40 amp externally mounted alternator as my primary power source and the internal alternator is "idling" unless the 40 amp ddevelops a problem, I'm wonderig if the Z-16 architecture is appropriate to my needs.
Vaughn Teegarden
[quote][b]
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Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: Z-16 |
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Gaye and Vaughn wrote:
| Quote: | Thank you Sir,
Unfortunately, I am so far from being able to understand the regulator
schematic that you sent, it might as well be a woman.
|
Vaughn, now THAT is a GOOD one! Earl
do not archive
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