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50 Tail wheel shimmy

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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy

Jack the tail up. Check 6 things as follows;

1) lateral movement (play) in the vertical strut. The shim on the mounting

bolt that goes thru it to support the entire assembly attaching the shaft

to the fusalage can be worn.

2) take the fork with the tailwheel locked and try to rotate it from side

to side (left and right). If it will rotate slightly, check the shim tab

that goes into shaft of the strut. this tab is right above the neck of the

fork. It looks something like rectanglar nail head like the kind used to

hold rails in the 1800's togather for lack of a better way to discribe it. 

3) Check the locking pin as it slides down into the metal ring on the shaft

of the fork. Does it have lateral play. Does it completely lock?

4) What shape are your tailwheel bearings in? You will have to pull the

wheel off the assembly to check those. Are the races smooth or pitted. How

old is the grease that is in them. 

5) Is the wheel collar nut tight (but not so tight as to impeed the  free

rotation of the tire.) This has nothing to do with shimmy, but is the

collar nut safety wired? 

6) What shape is your rear wheel tire in? Scuffed, worn, out of round. Does

the tailwheel make grinding noises when spun? Is it properly inflated?

This has nothing to do with shimmy but it will make the tailwheel bounce if

it is not properly inflated. That is the aft strut shock absorber. It also

will contribute to fore/aft play in the tailwheel if the bearings in the

shaft and aft cap (where it mounts to the aft bulkhead) are worn. Combine

the worn bearing (aft shock absorber cap/bulkhead mount) with a worn shim

on the main bolt that mounts the vertical tailwheel shaft to the empanage

and you get a tailwheel assembly that will just flop around in any

direction when push, pulled or rotated. That gets your attention too.

Hope this helps. I will send you the excellent article that Tom Johnson did

on the tail wheel assembly. It did a better job than our handbook did on

sorting out tailwheel issues.

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: flir47 <me262pilot(at)comcast.net>

 To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 4/16/2007 11:37:28 AM

 Subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy



 



 Anyone had an issue with TW shimmy on a Yak 50???



 If so what is the silver bullet?



 --------

 You built and fly an RV.......BIG DEAL!!!!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107305#107305

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:58 am Post subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy

These are all good things Doc, and well worth mentioning.  



However, what I have found to be the biggest contributor to tail wheel

shimmy is simply that the tail wheel is NOT LOCKED when you touch down.

In a lot of YAK-50's, as soon as you take off and for any reason push

the stick forward, the tail wheel will unlock and then it will COCK off

to one side in flight.  When you go to land, the pin is not in the hole

and the tail wheel will start a very violent swing back and forth and

then will suddenly STOP as you get slow enough for the locking pin to

drop into the hole.  



None of the steps you have listed below will stop this.  



The only solution I found was to re-design the point where the tail

wheel releases with the stick.  I wrote an article on exactly how to do

that some years ago, and I think Tom might have published it again from

time to time.  He also has done a good job accumulating a lot of

information others have written, along with what he has discovered

himself.  



In my 50, I have it now where the control stick has to be pushed ALL the

way forward... I mean to the limit... Before it will unlock the tail

wheel.  This means it is kept locked for the entire flight and then

LANDS with it locked.  MAJOR shimmy is now gone... Very minor stuff is

still there, but it is caused by the issues you have explained below.

If anyone wants to know how to go about doing this, send me a line and I

will dig up the article and send it again, or I can explain it person to

person. 



Mark Bitterlich

N50YK 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy

It depends on what type of shimmy it is.  What kind of landings are you

doing?  Wheel or 3 point?  



Is the shimmy very violent and then suddenly stops as you slow down?  



Or is it bad to start and then decreases evenly with speed.  



If it is the latter, then follow Doc's recommendations.  If it is the

former, we need to talk. 



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy

Thanks but not really! Just had to deal with a case of it from the aft

shock absorber bushing, the strut shim, wheel bearings, and  later having

to replace the aft shock absorber after the aluminum end cap (the aft

bearing mount) elongated. Am still looking for a replacement shock absorber

after a friend gave me his extra new one.

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: flir47 <me262pilot(at)comcast.net>

 To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 4/16/2007 1:42:44 PM

 Subject: Re: 50 Tail wheel shimmy



 



 Thanks DOC!!!!!! You da man!



 --------

 You built and fly an RV.......BIG DEAL!!!!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107346#107346

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy

Very interesting, Mark! I certainly would also prefer having the tailwheel

locked when landing. But does this mean that your tailwheel is also locked

during taxi ? This could be nasty if you have to make a relatively short

turn. Or am I (again) missing something? If you've got to unlock the

tailwheel by pushing the stick completely forward, then a taxi with tail

wind might also be rather awkward. I'd liked to get a copy of that article!



All the best,



Jan Mevis

RA2005K



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy

It is more than likely that your tail wheel is coming unlocked in flight, and then is "canting" off to one side.  Take a look at Doc's picture to see a very vivid example of that very thing.  



When you wheel land the aircraft... Which to many is much easier than 3 pointing it .. You are going a lot faster.   As you lower the tail to the ground gently, the tail wheel is thrown violently to the other extreme, and it is more than likely that the tail wheel locking pin will not have time to drop through the hole.  This means that the tail wheel will be slamming back and forth with great speed and will tear the shit out of the tail wheel.  



There are some things you can do as a pilot that will help.  When you let the tail wheel down, do so gently and then lift it back up again.  If you are lucky, it will lock and then you can lower it again without shimmy.  Gently is the key here, force is not needed.  



The other alternative... And a better one as far as I am concerned, is to adjust the linkages on the cable that control the locking pin, so that it stays in the hole longer as you push in on the stick.  This adjustment is NOT at the tail wheel, but instead is underneath of the right horizontal stab's fiberglass fairing.  If you let the pin down too far, you can cause it to come right out of the housing, and that is just as bad if not worse than what you have now.  



The answer is to have the pin come down through the whole correctly, and then STOP.. But to only do that when the stick is all the way forward.   To accomplish that, you will need to move the cable end to the next hole back in the bolt pattern to where it attaches to the elevator tube that connects the left horizontal stab to the right horizontal stab.  You then attach a wire SNUB to the cable so that it will not go down too far.  This snub will grip the cable itself and come to a stop at the cable housing. 



Pictures would help here.. But.... 



Mark Bitterlich

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy

Jan, I have simply changed the point at where the tail wheel unlocks and

where the control stick is when that happens.  



In most 50's when you push slightly forward of neutral, the tail wheel

will unlock.  Thus, if you wheel land it and push forward on the stick,

you just made SURE that the tailwheel was unlocked.  



On mine, I changed this to where you have to push the control stick

every inch of the way FORWARD in order to unlock the tailwheel.  So. You

can still unlock it for taxi as you mentioned, but unless you are doing

heavy inverted stuff like tumbles and so forth, it is doubtful that you

will ever push the stick ALL the way forward in flight ... That in turn

causes the tailwheel to unlock.  The only time I actually UNLOCK the

tailwheel now is when I have to make a sharp turn. 



Probably one of the best ideas I had, and never implemented, was to

simply move the cable away from the stick and attach it to something

else so that I could lock and unlock the tailwheel by a different device

.. I.E. NOT THE STICK.   This is how all the Sukhois do it anyway.  



You are perfectly correct about the issue of now having to push the

stick all the way forward to unlock it when you are also dealing with a

tailwind.  It IS rather awkward in that situation.  But that situation

is not all that common.  Landing is.   This small issue is still yet

another reason to just put in a stand alone lever to control tail wheel

locking.  



Mark



P.s.  I'll look for the article Jan but you could also search the

archives and search for "tail wheel shimmy".



  

--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy

Mark,

If you can send me those pictures when you can. I had not thought of moving

the cable attachment to the lower bolt on the elevator attachment (for the

right and left).

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E

<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 4/16/2007 5:14:14 PM

 Subject: RE: Re: 50 Tail wheel shimmy



 

MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 It is more than likely that your tail wheel is coming unlocked in flight,

and then is "canting" off to one side.  Take a look at Doc's picture to see
	


a very vivid example of that very thing.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 When you wheel land the aircraft... Which to many is much easier than 3

pointing it .. You are going a lot faster.   As you lower the tail to the
	


ground gently, the tail wheel is thrown violently to the other extreme, and

it is more than likely that the tail wheel locking pin will not have time

to drop through the hole.  This means that the tail wheel will be slamming

back and forth with great speed and will tear the shit out of the tail

wheel.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 There are some things you can do as a pilot that will help.  When you let

the tail wheel down, do so gently and then lift it back up again.  If you
	


are lucky, it will lock and then you can lower it again without shimmy. 

Gently is the key here, force is not needed.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 The other alternative... And a better one as far as I am concerned, is to

adjust the linkages on the cable that control the locking pin, so that it
	


stays in the hole longer as you push in on the stick.  This adjustment is

NOT at the tail wheel, but instead is underneath of the right horizontal

stab's fiberglass fairing.  If you let the pin down too far, you can cause

it to come right out of the housing, and that is just as bad if not worse

than what you have now.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 The answer is to have the pin come down through the whole correctly, and

then STOP.. But to only do that when the stick is all the way forward.   To
	


accomplish that, you will need to move the cable end to the next hole back

in the bolt pattern to where it attaches to the elevator tube that connects

the left horizontal stab to the right horizontal stab.  You then attach a

wire SNUB to the cable so that it will not go down too far.  This snub will

grip the cable itself and come to a stop at the cable housing. 

[quote]

 Pictures would help here.. But.... 



 Mark Bitterlich

 --

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy

Thanks, Mark! I'm going to implement your modification too. 



As for tailwheel issues, the biggest problem I once had was the tailwheel

construction getting disconnected from the oleo due to improper

safety-wiring. The connecting rod could rotate almost freely in the oleo.

This happened after taxi and take-off from a rough gras field. Fortunately I

could make a very short emergency landing on another grass field.

Jan

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy

The problem is HOW you go about adjusting it so that you CAN move the

unlock position all the way forward. 



If you take the fairing at the right horizontal stab root off, you will

be able to see the mechanism that controls the up and down movement of

the tail wheel locking pin.  The adjustment that you see at this

location is there to control the DEPTH of the pins movement into the

locking ring hole located just above the tail wheel tire. Adjusting this

does not really solve the problem very well, because it is possible to

adjust the pin down too far, and then... You simply run out of pin and

it drops down through the locking pin hole with cable hanging on behind

it.    



You will notice that the cable itself is connected to a BOLT on the

shaft that connects the left and right horizontal stabs together.  If

you move the cable attachment to another bolt you can make it to where

the pin pulls out (upwards)  ONLY when the stick is moved ALL the way

forward. 



However, when you do this... You will notice that when you start to pull

the stick all the way AFT.... There will be so much extra slack in the

cable that the pin will drop DOWN and then OUT of the locking ring hole 



To prevent THIS from happening, you have to build a cable snubber.  This

can be something so simple as a bolt and a nut with a vertical groove

cut down the middle of the threaded portion of the bolt itself.  Picture

that in your mind.  You slide the cable through the vertical cut in the

bolt, and then when you screw on a nut.. The nut will PINCH the cable to

the top of the cut slot as you tighten it.  You then position this

device on the cable so that you control how far DOWN the LOCKING PIN can

go as you pull the stick AFT.  



A picture would really help here.  



However, if you pull the fairing off, and then look at it as you read

this message, I am betting that it will become obvious.  



I invented this method a few years ago, and have been using this lashup

ever since... It really stopped the tail wheel shimmy cold... At least

the VIOLENT type that just eats your tail wheels ALIVE.   I used to get

just months out of the tail wheels, now I get years.  



Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK

  



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy

Using a stand alone control lever for tailwheel lock:  



In many ways, I think that is the VERY BEST SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM!  



Simple, completely pilot controlled, and not tied in with controls that

might conflict with tail wheel locking needs.  



I wrote an article about tailwheel shimmy in my YAK 50 around 6 or 7

years ago.  It discussed how to adjust/move the cable attach point and

install the snubber so as to allow the 50's tailwheel to remain locked

through-out the complete flight.  The way I verified what was causing

the mess to begin with was by having a friend flying close form on

landing filming the tailwheel with a VHS recorder/camera.  



Since we have re-opened this conversation, a point came up that Tom

Johnson has educated me about concerning YAK 50 tailwheel locking pins.

The pin on a lot of 50's has a SHOULDER on it that prevents it from

coming down too far and allowing the pin to fall completely right out of

the hole it slides in to.  Tom Johnson has looked at three YAK-50's that

have this shoulder on the pin.  I own TWO 50's (one is a parts only

aircraft) and neither of them have a shoulder that prevent the pin from

coming right on out the bottom.  Now, either the pins shoulder wore off

of what I have, or the hole it goes in is bigger, or it is somehow a

different part. I need to do a close examination and take pictures to

figure out why his three are different from my two. 



However the real issue being discussed is whether it is ok to rely on

the shoulder to keep the pin from sliding down too far, or is it better

to add the snubber, so that the cable ITSELF keeps the pin from going

down too far.  In my case, it HAD to be a snubber (or some like device

such as a cable swage).  In Tom's case, his pin "shoulder" allowed him

not to use a snubber and instead rely on the shoulder.  



If you follow the Russian instructions for setting the pin depth, the

cable and not the shoulder prevent pin over-travel and the shoulder is

there apparently as a backup. That is an ASSUMPTION on my part and is

not verified.  Thus, I lean towards still using a snubber on the cable

and not relying on a shoulder.  Keep in mind though that with my

airplane I never had the option.  



It ends up being the call of every individual how to go about doing it.

Tom Johnson's method does not require you to move the cable attach

point.  My method does require that you move it, because I want that

stick ALL the way forward to unlock the tailwheel, not 80%, but ALL the

way.  Either method ends up with the cable going slack when you then

pull the stick all the way back.  I add a snubber on the cable to

prevent the cable from ever going slack and thus also keeping the pin

from sliding down too far in that condition.  Tom is allowing he cable

to go slack and is relying on the shoulder on the pin which so far he

has seen on every 50 he has looked at, but that mine do not have.

Either method works.  



Bottom line, if you make these adjustments to prevent shimmy, be careful

that you understand all the ramifications of what you are doing.   



r/s, 



Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy

Mark,

What year is your 50? Mine is a 78 and I do not recall seeing a shoulder on

the locking pin. I will double check tomorrow PM. 

I have adjusted my cable all the way out in the manor that is shown in

Tom's article. The cable will not adjust far enough out to allow full

forward stick throw. I go about 2-3 inches past neutral on the stick. I did

that after the picture that you saw was taken when I figured out that was

part of my problem. Those that have flown formation on me since have not

commented on the tailwheel being canted off center. The last pictures taken

after that have not shown it to be canted off center. I have not had

another episode of sudden kicking of the tail with touch down either.

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E

<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 4/18/2007 6:28:53 PM

 Subject: RE: Re: 50 Tail wheel shimmy



 

MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
	


[quote]

 Using a stand alone control lever for tailwheel lock:  



 In many ways, I think that is the VERY BEST SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM!  



 Simple, completely pilot controlled, and not tied in with controls that

 might conflict with tail wheel locking needs.  



 I wrote an article about tailwheel shimmy in my YAK 50 around 6 or 7

 years ago.  It discussed how to adjust/move the cable attach point and

 install the snubber so as to allow the 50's tailwheel to remain locked

 through-out the complete flight.  The way I verified what was causing

 the mess to begin with was by having a friend flying close form on

 landing filming the tailwheel with a VHS recorder/camera.  



 Since we have re-opened this conversation, a point came up that Tom

 Johnson has educated me about concerning YAK 50 tailwheel locking pins.

 The pin on a lot of 50's has a SHOULDER on it that prevents it from

 coming down too far and allowing the pin to fall completely right out of

 the hole it slides in to.  Tom Johnson has looked at three YAK-50's that

 have this shoulder on the pin.  I own TWO 50's (one is a parts only

 aircraft) and neither of them have a shoulder that prevent the pin from

 coming right on out the bottom.  Now, either the pins shoulder wore off

 of what I have, or the hole it goes in is bigger, or it is somehow a

 different part. I need to do a close examination and take pictures to

 figure out why his three are different from my two. 



 However the real issue being discussed is whether it is ok to rely on

 the shoulder to keep the pin from sliding down too far, or is it better

 to add the snubber, so that the cable ITSELF keeps the pin from going

 down too far.  In my case, it HAD to be a snubber (or some like device

 such as a cable swage).  In Tom's case, his pin "shoulder" allowed him

 not to use a snubber and instead rely on the shoulder.  



 If you follow the Russian instructions for setting the pin depth, the

 cable and not the shoulder prevent pin over-travel and the shoulder is

 there apparently as a backup. That is an ASSUMPTION on my part and is

 not verified.  Thus, I lean towards still using a snubber on the cable

 and not relying on a shoulder.  Keep in mind though that with my

 airplane I never had the option.  



 It ends up being the call of every individual how to go about doing it.

 Tom Johnson's method does not require you to move the cable attach

 point.  My method does require that you move it, because I want that

 stick ALL the way forward to unlock the tailwheel, not 80%, but ALL the

 way.  Either method ends up with the cable going slack when you then

 pull the stick all the way back.  I add a snubber on the cable to

 prevent the cable from ever going slack and thus also keeping the pin

 from sliding down too far in that condition.  Tom is allowing he cable

 to go slack and is relying on the shoulder on the pin which so far he

 has seen on every 50 he has looked at, but that mine do not have.

 Either method works.  



 Bottom line, if you make these adjustments to prevent shimmy, be careful

 that you understand all the ramifications of what you are doing.   



 r/s, 



 Mark Bitterlich 

 N50YK



 --

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:31 am Post subject: 50 Tail wheel shimmy

I have an 84 and a 74.

   

   

  Mark

  



Roger Kemp <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" 



Mark,

What year is your 50? Mine is a 78 and I do not recall seeing a shoulder on

the locking pin. I will double check tomorrow PM. 

I have adjusted my cable all the way out in the manor that is shown in

Tom's article. The cable will not adjust far enough out to allow full

forward stick throw. I go about 2-3 inches past neutral on the stick. I did

that after the picture that you saw was taken when I figured out that was

part of my problem. Those that have flown formation on me since have not

commented on the tailwheel being canted off center. The last pictures taken

after that have not shown it to  be canted off center. I have not had

another episode of sudden kicking of the tail with touch down either.

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   To: 

 Date: 4/18/2007 6:28:53 PM

 Subject: RE: Re: 50 Tail wheel shimmy



 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,

MALS-14 64E" 
	


[quote]

 Using a stand alone control lever for tailwheel lock: 



 In many ways, I think that is the VERY BEST SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM! 



 Simple, completely pilot controlled, and not tied in with controls that

 might conflict with tail wheel locking needs. 



 I wrote an article about tailwheel shimmy in my YAK 50 around 6 or 7

 years ago. It discussed how to adjust/move the cable attach point and

  install the snubber so as to allow the 50's tailwheel to remain locked

 through-out the complete flight. The way I verified what was causing

 the mess to begin with was by having a friend flying close form on

 landing filming the tailwheel with a VHS recorder/camera. 



 Since we have re-opened this conversation, a point came up that Tom

 Johnson has educated me about concerning YAK 50 tailwheel locking pins.

 The pin on a lot of 50's has a SHOULDER on it that prevents it from

 coming down too far and allowing the pin to fall completely right out of

 the hole it slides in to. Tom Johnson has looked at three YAK-50's that

 have this shoulder on the pin. I own TWO 50's (one is a parts only

 aircraft) and neither of them have a shoulder that prevent the pin from

 coming right on out the bottom. Now, either the pins shoulder wore off

 of what I have, or the hole it goes in is bigger, or  it is somehow a

 different part. I need to do a close examination and take pictures to

 figure out why his three are different from my two. 



 However the real issue being discussed is whether it is ok to rely on

 the shoulder to keep the pin from sliding down too far, or is it better

 to add the snubber, so that the cable ITSELF keeps the pin from going

 down too far. In my case, it HAD to be a snubber (or some like device

 such as a cable swage). In Tom's case, his pin "shoulder" allowed him

 not to use a snubber and instead rely on the shoulder. 



 If you follow the Russian instructions for setting the pin depth, the

 cable and not the shoulder prevent pin over-travel and the shoulder is

 there apparently as a backup. That is an ASSUMPTION on my part and is

 not verified. Thus, I lean towards still using a snubber on the cable

 and not relying on a shoulder. Keep in  mind though that with my

 airplane I never had the option. 



 It ends up being the call of every individual how to go about doing it.

 Tom Johnson's method does not require you to move the cable attach

 point. My method does require that you move it, because I want that

 stick ALL the way forward to unlock the tailwheel, not 80%, but ALL the

 way. Either method ends up with the cable going slack when you then

 pull the stick all the way back. I add a snubber on the cable to

 prevent the cable from ever going slack and thus also keeping the pin

 from sliding down too far in that condition. Tom is allowing he cable

 to go slack and is relying on the shoulder on the pin which so far he

 has seen on every 50 he has looked at, but that mine do not have.

 Either method works. 



 Bottom line, if you make these adjustments to prevent shimmy, be careful

 that you  understand all the ramifications of what you are doing. 



 r/s, 



 Mark Bitterlich 

 N50YK



 --

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