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dcr(at)fdltownhomes.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:22 am Post subject: Looking for advice

Guys:   

   

 I’m going through the airworthiness inspection by the local FSDO.  The guy is coming next Monday at 0900 to complete the inspection and paperwork.  He happened by yesterday because he was in the area and had some time.  He did most of the inspection and said to put if back together and be ready to run the engine on Monday.  He has since called and said I needed an A&P sign off for installing the Sensenich propeller on the Lycoming (certified) engine.  He called again and said that because the engine is certified, it would have to be maintained as a certified engine by an A&P and only certified parts or STC ed parts could be installed.  I suspect this guy is more airline knowledgeable than experimental.  BTW, he is a nice guy.  My question is:  does anyone know any FAA regs or materials I can gently suggest this guy to reference?  Please, ranting and ravings about the FAA won’t help me, just references/suggestions to help educate this guy.  I have more to lose if we get into a pissing contest.  Thanks in advance.  Dan  

   

Do Not Archive  

        [quote][b]

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: Looking for advice

The easy  solution, if you don't mind a 40 hour test period, is to tell him it's an  experimental engine/prop combo and to consider it as such.

  

 If you really  want a 25 hour test period, have both the TC's for the prop and engine on hand.  Do an AD search on your engine. Note the compliance of each AD. Have an A/P sign  off your prop install, and ignore what he said about maintenance, as long as he  doesn't try to screw you with a restrictive AW cert. You may still be in a  pissing contest.

  

 Next time use  an ABDER, they're much more understanding and knowledgeable.

  

 You might  also call the EAA and ask the tech support folks for help.

  

 

Bruce

www.glasair.org

   [quote]   

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Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: Looking for advice

Dan,

  

 The closer I read your message,  the more I think you may have a real problem. It's obvious that someone  else at the FSDO is feeding this guy worthless and wrong information about  experimentals, otherwise he would of told you about the A&P, certified  parts, and A&P maitenance requirement (all wrong bye the way) on the first  visit. I think he's going to ask/tell you to remove the engine data plate if you  want an experimental engine. Don't remove it. Call the EAA, they have some  good stuff on their website, if you're a member. They also have an ABDER lookup.  See if you can get one and then cancell the FSDO guy. Otherwise I fear you'll  have to go over his head.

  

  

 Bruce  

 [quote]   

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carlosh(at)sec-engr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: Looking for advice

Bruce Gray wrote:

[quote] The easy solution, if you don't mind a 40 hour test period, is to tell 

 him it's an experimental engine/prop combo and to consider it as such.

 If you really want a 25 hour test period, have both the TC's for the 

 prop and engine on hand. Do an AD search on your engine. Note the 

 compliance of each AD. Have an A/P sign off your prop install, and 

 ignore what he said about maintenance, as long as he doesn't try to 

 screw you with a restrictive AW cert. You may still be in a pissing 

 contest.

 Next time use an ABDER, they're much more understanding and knowledgeable.

 You might also call the EAA and ask the tech support folks for help.



 Bruce

 www.glasair.org



     --

carlosh(at)sec-engr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: Looking for advice

Meant to type ABDER not ADBER. Sorry for the fat finger typo!



Carlos

Do not archive

//

-- 



Carlos Hernandez <carlosh(at)sec-engr.com>

Structural Engineers, LLC

2963 W. Elliot Rd. - Suite 3

Chandler, AZ 85224

Phone: 480.968.8600

Fax: 480.968.8608

www.sec-engr.com

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This email is intended to be reviewed by only the individual or

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T.gummo(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: Looking for advice

Just get the paperwork signed, then follow the "correct  rules", ie, as an experimental, you can do ALL the work on it, engine and prop  included.  While it would be nice if you could educate him, it is a waste  of time.

  

 My DAR gave me the forty hour fly off time period, "So I  could work on the engine and prop."

  

 Tom Gummo

Apple Valley, CA

Harmon  Rocket-II

  

 do not archive

  

 http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html



 [quote]   ---

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: Looking for advice

I could be wrong on this, but I *think* what's going on is that to maintain the certified status of engine and prop, the FAA guy is right.

As I remember, you can decertify the Lycoming by pulling the data plate.  You *might* be able to decertify it in the engine logs, I don't know.



But the engine remains certified only so long as it follows all the steps a certified engine must follow.  This means an A&P involvement, including what props can be installed on it and how said props are installed.



That's how I understand things, but I'm basing my opinion off memory from reading the books on all this before I even started building a long long LONG time ago.  I could easily be completely wrong.  Maybe someone on the list can confirm or deny what I've said.



-Joe



On Apr 19, 2007, at 4:10 PM, Tom Gummo wrote:

[quote]Just get the paperwork signed, then follow the "correct rules", ie, as an experimental, you can do ALL the work on it, engine and prop included.  While it would be nice if you could educate him, it is a waste of time.

 

My DAR gave me the forty hour fly off time period, "So I could work on the engine and prop."

 

Tom GummoApple Valley, CAHarmon Rocket-II

 

do not archive

 

http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html

[quote]---

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: Looking for advice

Amature Built Designated Engineering Represenative, he can inspect,

sign-off, and issue an AW cert just like the FSDO.



Bruce

www.glasair.org

 



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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: Looking for advice

Bruce,



  I'm guessing you are actually talking about an AB DAR.  Armature Built Designated Airworthiness Representative.  Or at least I have never heard of an ABDER.  More about the program here (EAA membership required)....



http://members.eaa.org/home/govt/help/ab_dar.asp



Michael

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Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: Looking for advice

Yes, I was. I'm getting to old for all these acronyms. Heck, I don't even

have an EFIS and fly a plastic airplane.



Bruce

www.glasair.org

 



--

T.gummo(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: Looking for advice

Well, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night but  ..

  

 This is my opinion and I read some of the book before  I ate it.   

  

 But if it is a homebuilt aircraft, you may install TSO  equipment as well as non-TSO equipment.  So if the engine loses it  "certification" because you work on it so be it and you don't have to  remove the Data Plate.  As for the engine and prop, you as the builder or  even the owner of a experimental aircraft MAY do ANY and ALL maintenance  that you feel qualified to do.  For example, as  long as the engine is in an experimental aircraft it doesn't have to comply with  an ADs.  Is that smart, most likely not.  Once the inspector leaves,  he will have NO control of what you do, just make sure your insurance company is  OK with the level of maintenance you plan to do.

  

 Once you remove the engine and or prop and want to sell  them to someone as a certified engine, all the ADs have to be complied with,  paperwork completed, and maybe even be inspected by an A&P.  Until  then, go fly and have a good time.  It is much easier to get forgiveness  than permission.

  

 BTW, other than replace spark plugs, change oil and  replace the oil filter, I get an A&P to look over my shoulder while I do the  work and definitely have him inspect all the work and sign off the log  books.  I may hate the dumb rules of the FAA but I am not really stupid (I  value my life and any pax I carry).

  

 Tom Gummo

Apple Valley, CA

Harmon  Rocket-II

 309 hours and loving it a lot.  I do work on my  engine and prop.  

  

 do not archive

  

 http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html



 [quote]   ---

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:53 am Post subject: Looking for advice

Yes, I was. I'm getting to old for all these acronyms. Heck, I don't

even have an EFIS and fly a plastic airplane.



Bruce

www.glasair.org

 



Geez, Bruce, plastic plane and no EFIS?  Maybe you have trouble with

acronyms, but here's a word you'll be familiar with--- LUDDITE!!!!! 



Chuck Jensen

Do not archive

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:11 am Post subject: Looking for advice

I'll admit that when I went to Aero Engineering school we used slide rules

instead of those new fangled electronic engineering calculators, but we

really saved money on batteries. I still have mine along with the belt

holster for it somewhere. Talk about geekie! 



No, I'm not a Luddite but I do belong to the anti-EFIS crowd.



Bruce

www.glasair.org

 



--

lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:16 am Post subject: Looking for advice

I think AB DER stands for Amateur Built Designated

Engineering Representative... but then again I could

be wrong 



Darrell



__________________________________________________

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: Looking for advice

As the first EWO uttered when told he was going to be strapped in the back seat of an F-100 to become a target Wild Weasel....YGBSM.



KABONG  (Do a search, it's there). Do Not Archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Yes, I was. I'm getting to old for all these acronyms. Heck, I don't

even have an EFIS and fly a plastic airplane.



Bruce

www.glasair.org

 



Geez, Bruce, plastic plane and no EFIS?  Maybe you have trouble with

acronyms, but here's a word you'll be familiar with--- LUDDITE!!!!! 



Chuck Jensen

Do not archive

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