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jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Jerry, do some research.  Look up "Hubbert's Peak".  Read about it.   

Then get back to me.

Here's a quick link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak

And here's a book at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/ 

0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216? 

ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1

This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the  

University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my  

undergrad degree back in the '80s.  He was one of the best college  

professors I had.

You don't have to believe anything I say.  You don't have to believe  

anything the author of this book says.  If you think he's wrong, look  

at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it.  Tell me where  

the thinking is flawed.  I can't poke holes in it.  Neither can  

people a heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff.  Maybe you  

can.  Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and hard  

science, not blind opinion.

-J

On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Joseph Larson wrote:

> 

>

> Right.  We don't know everything.  So let's just do nothing?  Or   

> let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?

>

> Sorry, that's not my style.

>

 We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not  

 if you are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN.

 All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange  

 program or believe that you can use more  by buying the right to  

 use more

 such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.

 Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better  

 discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when people are  

 welling to

 let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us  

 which light bulbs we must use etc.

 do not archive

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Yeah, I've heard that argument.  It's interesting but never is backed  

up by real science.



-J



On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:14 PM, Tom & Cathy Ervin wrote:



[quote] 

 <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net>



 Another FACT the Prius has a bigger negative impact on the  

 environment than an SUV over its lifetime. The energy used to  

 manufacture the highly toxic batteries and the eventual disposal of  

 the same is not offset by the cleaner fuel burn.

       Do some research and please don't let facts get in the way of  

 emotional tirades.

                                                                        

       Do not Archive   Oh...and in your case use water based primer  

 and you'll feel better in the morning. Tom in Ohio



 ---

jimteri1(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: User fees and patriotism

Man, I'm getting too old for this stuff.  You guys are killing me.  This idea of user fees sucks.  Period.  I don't know what global warming has to do with the user fee idea, and neither do you, I think.  If you like the idea of user fees, wait and see.  I figure I pay a few bucks in taxes for each of the hundred or so hours I fly each year.  The airlines fly millions of hours a year and pay millions of dollars.  Sounds fair to me.  They pass the costs on to the passengers - as it should be.  And they use and wear and tear on the system a WHOLE lot more than I do.  This user fee thing is just the politicos bowing to big business.  It's a scam and a sham.  Those of you who think it's a good idea - remember I (and countless others) told you so.  And by the way, I feel I pay my fair share and I don't mind that.  The airlines just need to pay their "fair" share.  Under the present system, they do.  Remember,these are the corporations who got 13 billion dollars after 9/11 to help them stay afloat.  And some went bankrupt anyway.  I say, let em go bankrupt.  Someone like Ted Turner or Ross Perot will buy those airplanes and start a more efficient way of doing business.  A huge detriment to the economy - I doubt it.  It would even out in the long run.  Capitalism - it's a great concept.  Politicians tend to screw it up.

morgjj

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 24

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

There are other ways to generate electicity than burning coal and fossil

fuels.



Surprising the most to me on this thread is the black and white on the

issue.  It is proven over and over that man messes up ecosystems.  To

what extent and such is debateable and still to be proven conclusively.

All and all I would suggest that even just try to be a bit more tolerant

of ideas and maybe, with the same creative juices that solve airplane

problems, we can work to a better place.  Or we can continue to deny

everything and admit nothing.  I would choose to look at things, have

conversations, and work to a better place.  What that is, is still to be

determined, but there are ways to make things better, with and without

regulation.  Oil is key to our world.  Whether or not folks want to

admit it apparently will not change that fact.  Oil people control lots,

and they aren't in the government. Guess you can choose your master.....



Do not archive



--

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is just like global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is not science.

 I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running out of oil

 theories.

 

 do not archive

 

 

 

 Joe Larson wrote:

 [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: Joe Larson <jpl(at)showpage.org> (jpl(at)showpage.org)   

   

 Jerry, do some research.  Look up "Hubbert's Peak".  Read about it.   Then get back to me.   

   

 Here's a quick link:   

   

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak   

   

 And here's a book at Amazon:   

   

 http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/ 0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1   

   

 This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the  University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my  undergrad degree back in the '80s.  He was one of the best college  professors I had.   

   

 You don't have to believe anything I say.  You don't have to believe  anything the author of this book says.  If you think he's wrong, look  at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it.  Tell me where  the thinking is flawed.  I can't poke holes in it.  Neither can  people a heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff.  Maybe you  can.  Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and hard  science, not blind opinion.   

   

 -J   

   

 On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:   

   

    	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net> (jsflyrv(at)verizon.net)     

     

 Joseph Larson wrote:     

     

      	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Joseph Larson <jpl(at)showpage.org> (jpl(at)showpage.org)       

       

 Right.  We don't know everything.  So let's just do nothing?  Or   let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?       

       

 Sorry, that's not my style.       

       

     	
 We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not  if you are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN.     

 All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange  program or believe that you can use more  by buying the right to  use more     

 such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.     

     

 Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better  discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when people are  welling to     

 let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us  which light bulbs we must use etc.     

     

 do not archive     

     

     

     

     

   	
   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

 [b]

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:25 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Have you read anything about it, Jerry?  Do you know what it means?  Or do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?

As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd love to hear it.  So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real science to explain what's wrong with the theory.  And when there's consensus amongst scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot more to me than the opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even understand it before saying it's wrong.



I believe in the scientific method.  I believe in peer review.  Are these perfect?  No, but they're the best we've got by far.



-J



On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:

[quote]  "The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is just like global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is not science.

 I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running out of oil

 theories.

 

 do not archive

 

 

 

 Joe Larson wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Joe Larson <jpl(at)showpage.org> (jpl(at)showpage.org)  

  

 Jerry, do some research.  Look up "Hubbert's Peak".  Read about it.   Then get back to me.  

  

 Here's a quick link:  

  

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak  

  

 And here's a book at Amazon:  

  

 http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/ 0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1  

  

 This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the  University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my  undergrad degree back in the '80s.  He was one of the best college  professors I had.  

  

 You don't have to believe anything I say.  You don't have to believe  anything the author of this book says.  If you think he's wrong, look  at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it.  Tell me where  the thinking is flawed.  I can't poke holes in it.  Neither can  people a heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff.  Maybe you  can.  Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and hard  science, not blind opinion.  

  

 -J  

  

 On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:  

  

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net> (jsflyrv(at)verizon.net)    

    

 Joseph Larson wrote:    

    

     	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Joseph Larson <jpl(at)showpage.org> (jpl(at)showpage.org)      

      

 Right.  We don't know everything.  So let's just do nothing?  Or   let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?      

      

 Sorry, that's not my style.      

      

    	
 We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not  if you are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN.    

 All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange  program or believe that you can use more  by buying the right to  use more    

 such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.    

    

 Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better  discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when people are  welling to    

 let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us  which light bulbs we must use etc.    

    

 do not archive    

    

    

    

    

  	
  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	
[b]

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:11 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

I do agree that there are many other ways to generate electricity, but

none of them are as cheap as coal or liquid petroleum products.

I do agree in theory that electric cars that have their power generated

by clean technology is a good idea, unfortunately less than 1% of

overall electricity used in the US is generated cleanly, so with that

being said someone buying an electric car is doing nothing to offset the

cause and effect of what we are talking about. Instead they too are

falling victim to the marketing hype.

Now, if you are running your own "green" power generation at home and

work I will retract my comments, but if you are just "plugging" it in,

you are just as guilty as the rest of us.

Get real, lets talk airplanes, and the "large" amounts of petroleum they

burn!

Dan Lloyd

N289DT RV10E 



--

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Previously peer review was valid on research because it was  non capital based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research  can not be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person providing  the money to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews the findings.  Research is much like accounting, numbers can be generated to prove any  hypothesis, given enough money and time.

 It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but  several of our neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our  knowledge they do not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It  has been stated that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that is  causing the rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these gases is  cars and industrial process by-products. But if you do the research, as you  state for us to do, that one volcano eruption while disperse more of these green  house gases, than we will generate over several decades. We have been here for  little more than 10k years, and for us to have the egotistical thoughts that we  control the environment is a fallacy. 

 The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of  an irritant it will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you  say, well maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a  virus. What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that destroys  our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus than make it  transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in and wipe us out with  a common cold, or better yet avian flu...

  

 Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated  it, and it makes as much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are  trying to force feed America to sell products.

 Dan Lloyd

 N289DT



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe  Larson

Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: User Fees and  Patriotism

 

Have you read anything about it, Jerry?  Do you know what it  means?  Or do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand? 

 As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd love  to hear it.  So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real science  to explain what's wrong with the theory.  And when there's consensus  amongst scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot more to me than  the opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even understand it before saying  it's wrong.

 

 I believe in the scientific method.  I believe in peer review.   Are these perfect?  No, but they're the best we've got by far.

 

 -J

 

  On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:

 [quote]"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence    said it all. It is just like global warming advocates use the term consensus,    consensus is not science.

I won't change your mind and you won't change    mine so I am not going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming    or running out of oil

theories.



do not archive



Joe    Larson wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Joe Larson <jpl(at)showpage.org> (jpl(at)showpage.org) 



Jerry,      do some research.  Look up "Hubbert's Peak".  Read about      it.   Then get back to me. 



Here's a quick link: 



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak      



And here's a book at Amazon: 



http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/      0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?      ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1 



This book was      recommended to me by a geology professor at the  University of      Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my  undergrad degree      back in the '80s.  He was one of the best college  professors I      had. 



You don't have to believe anything I say.  You don't have      to believe  anything the author of this book says.  If you think      he's wrong, look  at his evidence and point out what's wrong with      it.  Tell me where  the thinking is flawed.  I can't poke      holes in it.  Neither can  people a heck of a lot smarter than I      am about this stuff.  Maybe you  can.  Would love to hear      your arguments, based on facts and hard  science, not blind opinion.      



-J 



On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:      



      	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer        <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net> (jsflyrv(at)verizon.net)        



Joseph Larson wrote: 



        	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Joseph Larson          <jpl(at)showpage.org> (jpl(at)showpage.org)          



Right.  We don't know everything.  So let's just do          nothing?  Or   let's follow the lead of some people and          deny the problems exist? 



Sorry, that's not my style.        



	
We were running out of oil in the early 70's        remember, probably not  if you are 44 years old now. climates are        changing BUT NOT BY MAN. 

All of you gore supporters that buy the        carbon footprint exchange  program or believe that you can use        more  by buying the right to  use more 

such as gore and        edwards!!!!!! what a joke. 



Sorry I am contributing to this thread        that would be better  discussed in other forums but it pisses me off        when people are  welling to 

let the government regulate our lives        to the point of telling us  which light bulbs we must use etc.        



do not archive      





	






href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	




href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



[b]

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:58 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

For what it's worth, the Prius is not plugged in.  The batteries are  

recharged through regenerative braking and via the engine.  My  

average milage (once the car trains me to drive properly  ) will  

be 45-50 MPG.  Clearly, some of that time is spent with the engine  

actually turned off.  I've driven all of about 12 miles so far, so I  

don't have a good feel for everything.



I won't bother the list with any more info on my new Prius, but if  

anyone wants to chat about them, feel free to email me.



-Joe



On Apr 20, 2007, at 8:10 AM, Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:



[quote] 

 <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com>



 I do agree that there are many other ways to generate electricity, but

 none of them are as cheap as coal or liquid petroleum products.

 I do agree in theory that electric cars that have their power  

 generated

 by clean technology is a good idea, unfortunately less than 1% of

 overall electricity used in the US is generated cleanly, so with that

 being said someone buying an electric car is doing nothing to  

 offset the

 cause and effect of what we are talking about. Instead they too are

 falling victim to the marketing hype.

 Now, if you are running your own "green" power generation at home and

 work I will retract my comments, but if you are just "plugging" it in,

 you are just as guilty as the rest of us.

 Get real, lets talk airplanes, and the "large" amounts of petroleum  

 they

 burn!

 Dan Lloyd

 N289DT RV10E



 --

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Regarding the myth  about how one volcano sprew more greenhouse gases than mankind has for a  gadzillion years.....well, its a great story idea and a lot of people parrot it,  but unfortunately it is totally, utterly and completely false.  The  calculations done indicate that during the eruption phase, it discharged the  equivalent of 2-3 days of green house gases.  The particle/soot content was  a little higher, but anyone interested in retaining even a shred of credibility  should refrain from perpetuating the volcano story because it is based on  wishful mythology, not fact.

  

 Now, I think I'll go  out and plant a few trees to pollute the  atmosphere--good grief!

  

 Chuck  Jensen 

Do Not  Archive. 

  

  --

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:23 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Yes, the earth is self-regulating, but man has tossed out the old equilibrium and is interfering with the process of finding another.

The earth regulates carbon dioxide through plants.  Toss more CO2 in the air and the plants say "yum!" and grow big and strong.



Tell me, how are the rain forests in south america doing lately?  How about the forests of Europe (gone for 1000 years, largely due to shipbuilding to support conquest but also for heating)?  And those boundless forests of North America?



No one is saying that man is causing the entire rise.  Folks are saying man is contributing to the rise.  And folks are concerned about it.  I feel those concerns are valid.



Ultimately, I don't care if the sea level rises 20 meters.  I live in Minnesota, 800+ feet above sea level.  And I'm sure the folks in Manhatten love the idea of looking more like Venice.



I don't think anyone is saying we're going to spiral out of control and turn into Venus.  But they are saying that given the current trends, the overall temperature is going to rise by "several degrees".  They admit they don't know how much or if/when it will stop.  But they can do a pretty good job of stating what will happen as the earth warms, starting with melting ice caps, rising sea levels and nastier storm seasons.



-J

On Apr 20, 2007, at 8:37 AM, Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non capital based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research can not be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person providing the money to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews the findings. Research is much like accounting, numbers can be generated to prove any hypothesis, given enough money and time.

 It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge they do not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has been stated that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that is causing the rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these gases is cars and industrial process by-products. But if you do the research, as you state for us to do, that one volcano eruption while disperse more of these green house gases, than we will generate over several decades. We have been here for little more than 10k years, and for us to have the egotistical thoughts that we control the environment is a fallacy. 

 The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant it will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say, well maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a virus. What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that destroys our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus than make it transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in and wipe us out with a common cold, or better yet avian flu...

  

 Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it makes as much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying to force feed America to sell products.

 Dan Lloyd

 N289DT



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Joe Larson

Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: User Fees and Patriotism

 

Have you read anything about it, Jerry?  Do you know what it means?  Or do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand? 

 As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd love to hear it.  So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real science to explain what's wrong with the theory.  And when there's consensus amongst scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot more to me than the opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even understand it before saying it's wrong.

 

 I believe in the scientific method.  I believe in peer review.  Are these perfect?  No, but they're the best we've got by far.

 

 -J

 

  On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  "The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence   said it all. It is just like global warming advocates use the term consensus,   consensus is not science.

I won't change your mind and you won't change   mine so I am not going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming   or running out of oil

theories.



do not archive



Joe   Larson wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Joe Larson <jpl(at)showpage.org> (jpl(at)showpage.org) 



Jerry,     do some research.  Look up "Hubbert's Peak".  Read about     it.   Then get back to me. 



Here's a quick link: 



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak     



And here's a book at Amazon: 



http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/     0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?     ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1 



This book was     recommended to me by a geology professor at the  University of     Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my  undergrad degree     back in the '80s.  He was one of the best college  professors I     had. 



You don't have to believe anything I say.  You don't have     to believe  anything the author of this book says.  If you think     he's wrong, look  at his evidence and point out what's wrong with     it.  Tell me where  the thinking is flawed.  I can't poke     holes in it.  Neither can  people a heck of a lot smarter than I     am about this stuff.  Maybe you  can.  Would love to hear     your arguments, based on facts and hard  science, not blind opinion.     



-J 



On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:     



     	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer       <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net> (jsflyrv(at)verizon.net)       



Joseph Larson wrote: 



       	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Joseph Larson         <jpl(at)showpage.org> (jpl(at)showpage.org)         



Right.  We don't know everything.  So let's just do         nothing?  Or   let's follow the lead of some people and         deny the problems exist? 



Sorry, that's not my style.       



	
We were running out of oil in the early 70's       remember, probably not  if you are 44 years old now. climates are       changing BUT NOT BY MAN. 

All of you gore supporters that buy the       carbon footprint exchange  program or believe that you can use       more  by buying the right to  use more 

such as gore and       edwards!!!!!! what a joke. 



Sorry I am contributing to this thread       that would be better  discussed in other forums but it pisses me off       when people are  welling to 

let the government regulate our lives       to the point of telling us  which light bulbs we must use etc.       



do not archive     





	




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 [quote][b]

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Of course there is always the diesels such as the Jetta TDI that get as good of gas mileage, will probably out last a Prius by 3 fold which more than makes up for any perceived advantages of a Prius, uses proven technology, and is considerably less complex.  Anyone ever see one of those strip mines or the number of trips around the planet it takes to produce the batteries for a Prius?  Don't buy into the marketing hype and do your own research before you buy anything that claims to be "green".  Don't even get me started on "carbon credits", give me a break.  98% of the world will not buy into "green" technologies unless they are either 1) the only choice, or 2) cost effective compared to current choices.



  BTW, how the hell did this thread degenerate into a discussion on energy?  Back to the delete key.



Michael

Do not archive



--

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Well, I don't discount either of your arguments, at the  present, since neither one of you have provided a link to scientific discussion  one way or the other.  It's a he said, she said argument at the  present.  

  

 We can all agree that DDT is not a nice chemical for the  environment, yes?  Well, some want to bring it back into use because its  downsides do not outweigh its upsides.  Wonder who and under what logic the  upside argument is made?  Before I could take a stand on either side, I'd  have to do some reading.  Thinking.  Before I could do that, I'd need  some reference materials.  Right now I'm hoping DDT stays on the shelf, but  I have not enough evidence to make a final decision.  

  

 So....   How about links to scientific discussion  about these assertions, so I can understand the arguments and the evidence  supporting the arguments, and take one or the other off my "wishful thinking"  list.  

  

 John Jessen

   #40328



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck  Jensen

Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:07 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: User Fees and  Patriotism

 

 Regarding the myth  about how one volcano sprew more greenhouse gases than mankind has for a  gadzillion years.....well, its a great story idea and a lot of people parrot it,  but unfortunately it is totally, utterly and completely false.  The  calculations done indicate that during the eruption phase, it discharged the  equivalent of 2-3 days of green house gases.  The particle/soot content was  a little higher, but anyone interested in retaining even a shred of credibility  should refrain from perpetuating the volcano story because it is based on  wishful mythology, not fact.

  

 Now, I think I'll go  out and plant a few trees to pollute the  atmosphere--good grief!

  

 Chuck  Jensen 

Do Not  Archive. 

  

  --

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Going with the George Carlin thing, he also had a great comment that humans are only here because the Earth wanted plastic.  

   

  Anyone who thinks we are killing the planet in the great timeframe of the universe always makes me giggle.  We haven’t even been here for half a blink.  The Earth formed from galactic dust .  When we are long gone after the other half of that blink because we did something stupid, the planet will not even notice that we were here.  Science has an agenda the same as corporations nowadays and it is the new sexy political platform.  There is no way around it.  Climatologists are nothing more than statisticians that roll the dice because there is absolutely no way anyone can say with absolute certainty what the planet was doing even 500 years ago.  They have a infinitesimal data point to work with and a whole lot of technology that can produce thousands of “whatifs” to satisfy every angle a politician or corporation could want.  

   

  We think we are smarter than we actually are for the most part and there are more hypotheses than truths.  Mankind also likes to believe we are the center of everything, but it will be our arrogance and stubbornness that will ultimately make the planet say “what was that”.  

   

  Now back to pounding rivets!  

   

Do not archive  

       

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.

 Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:37 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: User Fees and Patriotism  

  

  

   

Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non capital based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research can not be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person providing the money to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews the findings. Research is much like accounting, numbers can be generated to prove any hypothesis, given enough money and time.  

It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge they do not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has been stated that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that is causing the rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these gases is cars and industrial process by-products. But if you do the research, as you state for us to do, that one volcano eruption while disperse more of these green house gases, than we will generate over several decades. We have been here for little more than 10k years, and for us to have the egotistical thoughts that we control the environment is a fallacy.   

The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant it will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say, well maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a virus. What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that destroys our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus than make it transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in and wipe us out with a common cold, or better yet avian flu...  

   

Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it makes as much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying to force feed America to sell products.  

Dan Lloyd  

N289DT  

       

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson

 Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: User Fees and Patriotism  

Have you read anything about it, Jerry?  Do you know what it means?  Or do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?     

   

    

As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd love to hear it.  So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real science to explain what's wrong with the theory.  And when there's consensus amongst scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot more to me than the opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even understand it before saying it's wrong.  

    

   

    

I believe in the scientific method.  I believe in peer review.  Are these perfect?  No, but they're the best we've got by far.  

    

   

    

-J  

    

       

On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:  

  



 

   

"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is just like global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is not science.

 I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running out of oil

 theories.

 

 do not archive

 

 

 

 Joe Larson wrote:

 

   

--> RV-List message posted by: Joe Larson <jpl(at)showpage.org> (jpl(at)showpage.org) 

 

 Jerry, do some research.  Look up "Hubbert's Peak".  Read about it.   Then get back to me. 

 

 Here's a quick link: 

 

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak 

 

 And here's a book at Amazon: 

 

 http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/ 0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1 

 

 This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the  University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my  undergrad degree back in the '80s.  He was one of the best college  professors I had. 

 

 You don't have to believe anything I say.  You don't have to believe  anything the author of this book says.  If you think he's wrong, look  at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it.  Tell me where  the thinking is flawed.  I can't poke holes in it.  Neither can  people a heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff.  Maybe you  can.  Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and hard  science, not blind opinion. 

 

 -J 

 

 On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote: 

 

 

   

--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net> (jsflyrv(at)verizon.net) 

 

 Joseph Larson wrote: 

 

 

   

--> RV-List message posted by: Joseph Larson <jpl(at)showpage.org> (jpl(at)showpage.org) 

 

 Right.  We don't know everything.  So let's just do nothing?  Or   let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist? 

 

 Sorry, that's not my style.   

We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not  if you are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN. 

 All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange  program or believe that you can use more  by buying the right to  use more 

 such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke. 

 

 Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better  discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when people are  welling to 

 let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us  which light bulbs we must use etc. 

 

 do not archive 

 

 

 

   



 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

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      [quote][b]

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

So in reality you have fallen for the marketing hype, you are not using

re-generative anything, you are using a gasoline engine to drive a

generator to store energy. But you more efficient because you are using

the inertia of the car on the braking cycle. In reality the engine is

just as in-efficient as others, based on the "true" BSFC, but it gains

because you are not wasting the momentum during stopping.

It is all marketing crap, gasoline engines are gasoline engines no

matter how much lipstick you put on the pig.



Just my less than .02

Dan Lloyd

N289DT 



--

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

John,

  

 In response to the  request for links, here's some reading material for you: http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/1998/98_10_22.html.  Kilauea, in Hawaii, is one of the more active volcanos  in the world and a big emitter of greenhouse gasses, however, it still puts  out only 0.01% of the world's greenhouse gases per year.  It emits the same  CO2 as 135,000 SUVs per year, and there are 128,000 vehicles registered in HI  aone.  

  

 Another fact:  CO2 concentrations in the atmospher have increased 20% since  the industrial revolution (a very short time period) and is projected to  increase another 20% by 2040.  The impact of CO2 is well understood.   Only the degree of impact is speculative.

  

 One can believe  whatever one wishes, but that doesn't change the facts and assessments and  projections that grow out of those facts.  Because projections of impacts  on the environment in the future are couched in terms of probability,  likelihoods and projections does not undermine the quality or veracity of the  underlying science.  Any good scientist will tell you he can predict  the future, as long as you allow him to qualify his predictions.  In the  financial markets, the past is not a reliable predictor of the future, however,  in science, the past, when properly interpreted and understood, is an  excellent predictor of the future.

  

 Chuck Jensen 

Do Not Archive

  

 --

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Maybe a little more research on both sides of the table,  short term versus long term ....

 Volcanic activity has the  ability to affect global climate on still

longer time scales. Over periods of  millions or even tens of millions of

years, increased volcanic activity can  emit enormous volumes of greenhouse

gases, with the potential of substantial  global warming (Pickering & Owen,

1994; Rampino & Volk, 1988).  However, the global cooling effects of sulphur

dioxide emissions (Officer  & Drake, 1983) will act to counter the greenhouse

warming, and the  resultant climate changes remain uncertain. Much will

depend upon the nature  of volcanic activity. Basaltic outpourings release

far less sulphur dioxide  and ash, proportionally, than do the more explosive eruptions.

  

 My  point is in all of this is that mankind has been here 10k years, and we are  just beginning to understand what is going on. 

 My  intent was that people should research and look into things, just like you  stated. Go plant the tree's, because it will help offset the thousands of acre's  being destroyed every day in third world countries for farming and cattle  production.

 Dan

  

 

   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck  Jensen

Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:07 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: User Fees and  Patriotism

 

 Regarding the myth  about how one volcano sprew more greenhouse gases than mankind has for a  gadzillion years.....well, its a great story idea and a lot of people parrot it,  but unfortunately it is totally, utterly and completely false.  The  calculations done indicate that during the eruption phase, it discharged the  equivalent of 2-3 days of green house gases.  The particle/soot content was  a little higher, but anyone interested in retaining even a shred of credibility  should refrain from perpetuating the volcano story because it is based on  wishful mythology, not fact.

  

 Now, I think I'll go  out and plant a few trees to pollute the  atmosphere--good grief!

  

 Chuck  Jensen 

Do Not  Archive. 

  

  --

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Too true...stir the pot!

How about alternative engines in RV10's?

LOL

Dan 



--

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

I agree John and in my convoluted way that was what I was  trying to say, the thing that is difficult in the information age is that there  is so much of it that the average person has a most difficult time wading  through it all. A person can build a logical argument for or against any subject  and have the scientific evidence to back it up.

 That is all I was trying to say, that anyone can build an  argument any way. In reality it is the dollars that talk and slew the scale for  an educated decision.

 Dan

 Lets get back to talking RV's

 I mounted the gear for the last time yesterday and am  waiting to move to the painter.....

  



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John  Jessen

Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:50 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: User Fees and  Patriotism

 

 Well, I don't discount either of your arguments, at the  present, since neither one of you have provided a link to scientific discussion  one way or the other.  It's a he said, she said argument at the  present.  

  

 We can all agree that DDT is not a nice chemical for the  environment, yes?  Well, some want to bring it back into use because its  downsides do not outweigh its upsides.  Wonder who and under what logic the  upside argument is made?  Before I could take a stand on either side, I'd  have to do some reading.  Thinking.  Before I could do that, I'd need  some reference materials.  Right now I'm hoping DDT stays on the shelf, but  I have not enough evidence to make a final decision.  

  

 So....   How about links to scientific discussion  about these assertions, so I can understand the arguments and the evidence  supporting the arguments, and take one or the other off my "wishful thinking"  list.  

  

 John Jessen

   #40328



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck  Jensen

Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:07 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: User Fees and  Patriotism

 

 Regarding the myth  about how one volcano sprew more greenhouse gases than mankind has for a  gadzillion years.....well, its a great story idea and a lot of people parrot it,  but unfortunately it is totally, utterly and completely false.  The  calculations done indicate that during the eruption phase, it discharged the  equivalent of 2-3 days of green house gases.  The particle/soot content was  a little higher, but anyone interested in retaining even a shred of credibility  should refrain from perpetuating the volcano story because it is based on  wishful mythology, not fact.

  

 Now, I think I'll go  out and plant a few trees to pollute the  atmosphere--good grief!

  

 Chuck  Jensen 

Do Not  Archive. 

  

  --

jrdial(at)hal-pc.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:42 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

     I thought this was the RV List and not a political blog.  

   

            DO NOT ARCHIVE  

   

   

   

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