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Baby Blue is back!

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topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

As some of you know, Mary and I attended Sun'N Fun without Baby Blue, 

this year.  The problem was a power loss and shuddering upon takeoff, at 

about 500 - 700 feet.  I made all the checks I could think of:  fuel 

flow/pressure, restrictions in the lines/filters, vents, ignition, prop, 

etc.  I presented the problem to several at Sun'N Fun and got several 

good suggestions.  Basically, we narrowed it down to a carb problem, 

most suggesting that one of the slides may be stuck.  Well, I went out 

to the plane, today and checked the slides.  No problems there, but, 

being a bit anal, I popped the tops anyway and checked them both out.  

They both looked like new, with no dirt of any kind.  A bit disappointed 

that I hadn't found anything obvious, I reassembled the carbs and 

reattached everything.  One of my last checks was to test the spring 

pressure on the cables and there it was.  The port carb was fine, but 

the the starboard spring was completely loose when the arm was pushed 

fully forward.  Confident that I'd actually found the problem, I 

shortened the spring and cowled her up.  Subsequent test flight verified 

the fix.  Baby Blue has never run so smoothly!  A new set of springs 

will be on order tomorrow.



For those who run into a rough running engine, I highly recommend that 

you add checking the springs to your diagnostic toolbox.



Jeff - Baby Blue

Happily flying again...

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Rman a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   The port carb was fine, but the the starboard spring was completely 

 loose when the arm was pushed fully forward.  Confident that I'd 

 actually found the problem, I shortened the spring and cowled her up.  

 Subsequent test flight verified the fix.  Baby Blue has never run so 

 smoothly!  A new set of springs will be on order tomorrow.



 For those who run into a rough running engine, I highly recommend that 

 you add checking the springs to your diagnostic toolbox.


	


Glad to hear you fixed your problem.

How about dispensing with the springs, and replacing the cables with 

piano wire ?

That's the way our project is set up, and it works flawlessly.



Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

acrojim(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Hey Jeff



I'm glad you found the problem. It seem's the smallest thngs, create the 

largest problems. Sorry I missed "Baby Blue".



Jim Brown

---

jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Glad to hear it. Looks like you can put the carb parts you took home on 

the shelf for another day. :•)

It was great seeing you and Mary at Sun-N-Fun. Based on the interest at 

the show it looks like Europa in America is back. Go for it Bud!!!!

Jeff R.

N128LJ / Gold Rush... Had a blast flying there, being there and flying 

back! Even through the smoke!

On Apr 22, 2007, at 5:45 PM, Rman wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 As some of you know, Mary and I attended Sun'N Fun without Baby Blue, 

 this year.  The problem was a power loss and shuddering upon takeoff, 

 at about 500 - 700 feet.  I made all the checks I could think of:  

 fuel flow/pressure, restrictions in the lines/filters, vents, 

 ignition, prop, etc.  I presented the problem to several at Sun'N Fun 

 and got several good suggestions.  Basically, we narrowed it down to a 

 carb problem, most suggesting that one of the slides may be stuck.  

 Well, I went out to the plane, today and checked the slides.  No 

 problems there, but, being a bit anal, I popped the tops anyway and 

 checked them both out.  They both looked like new, with no dirt of any 

 kind.  A bit disappointed that I hadn't found anything obvious, I 

 reassembled the carbs and reattached everything.  One of my last 

 checks was to test the spring pressure on the cables and there it was. 

  The port carb was fine, but the the starboard spring was completely 

 loose when the arm was pushed fully forward.  Confident that I'd 

 actually found the problem, I shortened the spring and cowled her up.  

 Subsequent test flight verified the fix.  Baby Blue has never run so 

 smoothly!  A new set of springs will be on order tomorrow.



 For those who run into a rough running engine, I highly recommend that 

 you add checking the springs to your diagnostic toolbox.



 Jeff - Baby Blue

 Happily flying again...



Jeff Roberts
	


Eagleville Marketing Group / EMG

488 Beasley RD.

Eagleville TN 37060



615-355-7575 Office

615-406-8651 Cell

615-534-1082 Fax



Please note our name & address change.

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Hi Giles,



"How about dispensing with the springs, and replacing the cables with

piano wire ? "



Do you really advise here to get rid of a safety feature? 



In case of a broken throttle cable or piano wire, you might end up with a very silent engine. The problem here is too tight routing of a throttle cable. Change the inner cable with a solid wire, and things will improve, probably until, because of the same tight routing the wire breaks sooner then might  be expected. 



Aircraft carburettors have springs to pull full throttle in case something goes wrong with the linkage. Please be careful when changing the basics!



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

josok a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   Do you really advise here to get rid of a safety feature? 



 In case of a broken throttle cable or piano wire, you might end up with a very silent engine. The problem here is too tight routing of a throttle cable. Change the inner cable with a solid wire, and things will improve, probably until, because of the same tight routing the wire breaks sooner then might  be expected. 



 Aircraft carburettors have springs to pull full throttle in case something goes wrong with the linkage. Please be careful when changing the basics!

   


	


Jos,



Thank you for responding.

Not all aircraft rely on spring tension to open the throttle against the 

friction in the outer case. Some have a push-pull cable and the throttle 

valve will stay where it is, should the control fail.

Hundreds of MCRs have been flying for years with a piano wire to replace 

the stranded cable and spring, without any problem whatsoever. The 

linkage is far far safer with a push-pull control than with a flimsy 

stranded cable and puny spring. You can even keep the spring for your 

peace of mind !



You mentioned the real cause : inadequate routing of the cable with 

tight turns. This leaves you with no option to open the throttle. There 

are frequent reports of buckling cable in such setups.

Do not hesitate to reroute the offending cable until it has only large 

natural sweeps instead of turns. The usual place for breaking a cable is 

at a wrongly rigged portion between throttle lever and cable case. So a 

careful design of this portion, and some provision for pivoting is key.



Regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Hi Gilles,



 	  Quote: 	
		  > Do you really advise here to get rid of a safety feature?


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Not all aircraft rely on spring tension to open the throttle against the  

 friction in the outer case. Some have a push-pull cable and the throttle  

 valve will stay where it is, should the control fail.


	


We are talking about the Rotax engine, and the Europa. In the Rotax  

documentation it is quite clear, why the spring is there and that the  

spring should be able to pull the cable. Rotax even offers two methods for  

improvent if the supplied spring is not strong enough. Removing the spring  

is not one of them. If the valve remains shut on final, when you would  

like to compensate for a stronger then estimated head wind you will  

discover the reason.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hundreds of MCRs have been flying for years with a piano wire to replace  

 the stranded cable and spring, without any problem whatsoever. The  

 linkage is far far safer with a push-pull control than with a flimsy  

 stranded cable and puny spring. You can even keep the spring for your  

 peace of mind !


	


A solid wire is per definition more prone to breaking. In a Europa, that  

wire has to go around corners, it can not be straight. Therefore, in a  

Europa, where this list/forum is about, it will break sooner then a  

stranded cable, especially if routed wrong in the first place. If you  

think the factory supplied throttle cable is flimsy, i suggest to try to  

break it. By hand. I guess you need about 600 kg of pulling force.  I  

can't take remarks like that very serious. Advising to remove safety  

components on the other hand is very serious business.



 	  Quote: 	
		   natural sweeps instead of turns. The usual place for breaking a cable is  

 at a wrongly rigged portion between throttle lever and cable case. So a  

 careful design of this portion, and some provision for pivoting is key.


	


Again, it's all in the manual, this case the Europa Builders Manual. Have  

you ever looked at it?



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

-- 

workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane

http://www.europaowners.org/kit600

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:33 am Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

I used original Europa throttle cables

but shortened them and routed

them directly to the carburrettors

(w/o any loops as per manual)

and they seem to work very well.

No binding at all.



In fact I have some difficulties to get enough

friction to the throttle lever to prevent it´s

"auto-moves" and to keep it idle w/o hand.



Raimo

====

Raimo M W Toivio



OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, FCAA permitted for test flights 

OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, reinterioring completed

OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines, singing this summer?



37500  Lempaala

Finland

tel + 358 3 3753 777

fax + 358 3 3753 100

gsm + 358 40 590 1450



raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi

www.rwm.fi



---

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:26 am Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Hi Raimo



As per Nev's advice: Weld the nuts to the metal washers, then the friction washers work. Without that the metal washers turn on the nuts instead. 



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Raimo

the "auto move" common on the factory throttle box is because the 

friction pads (nylon washers) are not restrained. It's a backlash issue 

not friction. I used large pieces of nylon sheet and stopped them 

turning. Cured it completely.

Graham



Raimo Toivio wrote:

[quote] 

 

 I used original Europa throttle cables

 but shortened them and routed

 them directly to the carburrettors

 (w/o any loops as per manual)

 and they seem to work very well.

 No binding at all.

 

 In fact I have some difficulties to get enough

 friction to the throttle lever to prevent it´s

 "auto-moves" and to keep it idle w/o hand.

 

 Raimo

 ====

 Raimo M W Toivio

 

 OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, FCAA permitted for test flights 

 OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, reinterioring completed

 OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines, singing this summer?

 

 37500  Lempaala

 Finland

 tel + 358 3 3753 777

 fax + 358 3 3753 100

 gsm + 358 40 590 1450

 

 raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi

 www.rwm.fi

 

 ---

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:36 am Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Hi! Jos/Raimo/Graham/Duncan/all

Duncan flagged this problem up recently for my interest and suggested

welding however I had some spare Redux mixed from another job and used

it to smudge round the metal washers to nut interface (rather like

fixing the nut in place) and although not yet "used in anger" it does

ensure the friction washers are now working as intended as a friction

clamp.

Regards

Bob H G-PTAG



--

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Jos,

 	  Quote: 	
		   A solid wire is per definition more prone to breaking. In a Europa, 

 that wire has to go around corners, it can not be straight. Therefore, 

 in a Europa, where this list/forum is about, it will break sooner then 

 a stranded cable, especially if routed wrong in the first place. If 

 you think the factory supplied throttle cable is flimsy, i suggest to 

 try to break it. By hand. I guess you need about 600 kg of pulling force.


	


The problem is, one needs to push, not pull, to open the throttle.

Reports on cable buckling and failure to increase power are not 

infrequent. I thought someone was reporting a carb cable/spring trouble.

Hence my suggestion, that has been working for tens of thousand flight 

hours.

I took this liberty because  I've some experience installing and 

operating a 914, and an engine doesn't mind what aircraft it is in, does 

it 



 	  Quote: 	
		   I can't take remarks like that very serious. Advising to remove safety 

 components on the other hand is very serious business.


	


The safety component here reads "large and direct sweeps", and "positive 

throttle linkage".



 	  Quote: 	
		   Again, it's all in the manual, this case the Europa Builders Manual. 

 Have you ever looked at it?


	


Yes sir, especially the engine installation part. Don't recall at the 

moment, but if it really suggests installing the throttle cables with 

tight turns, I would take it with a grain of salt.

But it is your airplane and and building and engineering decisions are 

up to you.



Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Gilles

in an ideal situation I agree push rods are best. Same with flight 

controls. Trouble is the Europa's situation isn't ideal for push rods, 

hence the second best choice of cables + springs, either of which could 

fail. In the EZs it was required that the throttle would still open 

without a spring, ie using the stranded cable as a push rod.

Hmmm

regards

Graham

Gilles Thesee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>

 Jos,

> A solid wire is per definition more prone to breaking. In a Europa, 

> that wire has to go around corners, it can not be straight. Therefore, 

> in a Europa, where this list/forum is about, it will break sooner then 

> a stranded cable, especially if routed wrong in the first place. If 

> you think the factory supplied throttle cable is flimsy, i suggest to 

> try to break it. By hand. I guess you need about 600 kg of pulling force.

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr> kirjoitti Tue, 24 Apr 2007  

22:02:17 +0300:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The problem is, one needs to push, not pull, to open the throttle.


	


Giles, i give up. Without spring yes, but THERE HAS TO BE A SPRING!



My real worry is not about you. But your ill advice might one day kill  

somebody. That worries me.

Looking at the high level of your contributions, usually well documented  

and investigated, it is surprising how you manage to produce and defend  

your last statements. The rest in PM or email please. End of thread for me.



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen



-- 

workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane

http://www.europaowners.org/kit600

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Jos Okhuijsen a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   But your ill advice might one day kill somebody.


	


Jos,



The push-pull control cable is not an exotic device from one lister's 

troubled mind, bud a widespread and  generally trouble free  solution  

to the  throttle actuation  problem in  an  airplane.

Just disagreeing on a point is no problem, whereas affirming a 

suggestion is ill and might kill really needs to be supported with hard 

facts or proven engineering considerations.



Please don't lose sleep on throttle actuation. The most frequent source 

of engine trouble on an experimental is related to fuel supply, not 

throttles.



Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

mau11(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Hi Jos,

During the mod 72 I have some problems with throttle cables. I take a

decision to replace the cable by Stainless steel spring wire diameter 1.5 mm

The curves have big radius and no wire difficluty to slide into her sleeves.

I have now 10 hours without no troubles.

One friend of me use the piano wire since 5 years on the Monowheel with 914

also no problems.



In addition I use graphite grease into the sleeve I introduce the grease

with oil squirt.

Also I note that the carburettors setting is more easy with metallic wires.



Regards

Michel AUVRAY

Builder N°145 monowheel 300 hours flight



-----Message d'origine-----

De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de Jos

Okhuijsen

Envoyé : mardi 24 avril 2007 10:23

À : europa-list(at)matronics.com

Objet : Re: Baby Blue is back!




Hi Gilles,



 	  Quote: 	
		  > Do you really advise here to get rid of a safety feature?


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Not all aircraft rely on spring tension to open the throttle against the

 friction in the outer case. Some have a push-pull cable and the throttle

 valve will stay where it is, should the control fail.


	


We are talking about the Rotax engine, and the Europa. In the Rotax

documentation it is quite clear, why the spring is there and that the

spring should be able to pull the cable. Rotax even offers two methods for

improvent if the supplied spring is not strong enough. Removing the spring

is not one of them. If the valve remains shut on final, when you would

like to compensate for a stronger then estimated head wind you will

discover the reason.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hundreds of MCRs have been flying for years with a piano wire to replace

 the stranded cable and spring, without any problem whatsoever. The

 linkage is far far safer with a push-pull control than with a flimsy

 stranded cable and puny spring. You can even keep the spring for your

 peace of mind !


	


A solid wire is per definition more prone to breaking. In a Europa, that

wire has to go around corners, it can not be straight. Therefore, in a

Europa, where this list/forum is about, it will break sooner then a

stranded cable, especially if routed wrong in the first place. If you

think the factory supplied throttle cable is flimsy, i suggest to try to

break it. By hand. I guess you need about 600 kg of pulling force.  I

can't take remarks like that very serious. Advising to remove safety

components on the other hand is very serious business.



 	  Quote: 	
		   natural sweeps instead of turns. The usual place for breaking a cable is

 at a wrongly rigged portion between throttle lever and cable case. So a

 careful design of this portion, and some provision for pivoting is key.


	


Again, it's all in the manual, this case the Europa Builders Manual. Have

you ever looked at it?



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

--

workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane

http://www.europaowners.org/kit600

mau11(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

In addition, before you take a decision to use metallic wire in replacement

of cables, check the radius of yours sleeve cables and install the wire and

re-check the good slip capacity.



-----Message d'origine-----

De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de Michel

AUVRAY

Envoyé : mercredi 25 avril 2007 19:55

À : europa-list(at)matronics.com

Objet : RE: Baby Blue is back!




Hi Jos,

During the mod 72 I have some problems with throttle cables. I take a

decision to replace the cable by Stainless steel spring wire diameter 1.5 mm

The curves have big radius and no wire difficluty to slide into her sleeves.

I have now 10 hours without no troubles.

One friend of me use the piano wire since 5 years on the Monowheel with 914

also no problems.



In addition I use graphite grease into the sleeve I introduce the grease

with oil squirt.

Also I note that the carburettors setting is more easy with metallic wires.



Regards

Michel AUVRAY

Builder N°145 monowheel 300 hours flight



-----Message d'origine-----

De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de Jos

Okhuijsen

Envoyé : mardi 24 avril 2007 10:23

À : europa-list(at)matronics.com

Objet : Re: Baby Blue is back!




Hi Gilles,



 	  Quote: 	
		  > Do you really advise here to get rid of a safety feature?


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Not all aircraft rely on spring tension to open the throttle against the

 friction in the outer case. Some have a push-pull cable and the throttle

 valve will stay where it is, should the control fail.


	


We are talking about the Rotax engine, and the Europa. In the Rotax

documentation it is quite clear, why the spring is there and that the

spring should be able to pull the cable. Rotax even offers two methods for

improvent if the supplied spring is not strong enough. Removing the spring

is not one of them. If the valve remains shut on final, when you would

like to compensate for a stronger then estimated head wind you will

discover the reason.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hundreds of MCRs have been flying for years with a piano wire to replace

 the stranded cable and spring, without any problem whatsoever. The

 linkage is far far safer with a push-pull control than with a flimsy

 stranded cable and puny spring. You can even keep the spring for your

 peace of mind !


	


A solid wire is per definition more prone to breaking. In a Europa, that

wire has to go around corners, it can not be straight. Therefore, in a

Europa, where this list/forum is about, it will break sooner then a

stranded cable, especially if routed wrong in the first place. If you

think the factory supplied throttle cable is flimsy, i suggest to try to

break it. By hand. I guess you need about 600 kg of pulling force.  I

can't take remarks like that very serious. Advising to remove safety

components on the other hand is very serious business.



 	  Quote: 	
		   natural sweeps instead of turns. The usual place for breaking a cable is

 at a wrongly rigged portion between throttle lever and cable case. So a

 careful design of this portion, and some provision for pivoting is key.


	


Again, it's all in the manual, this case the Europa Builders Manual. Have

you ever looked at it?



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

--

workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane

http://www.europaowners.org/kit600

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: Baby Blue is back!

Jos,



I don't wish for this discussion to degenerate into who is right and who is

wrong, but here is a valid data point.



A few years ago a Europa in the US crashed on while attempting a go around.

What happened is that the pilot set himself up for a landing, didn't like

the picture and decided to go around.  In his haste he jammed the throttle

forward, the springs didn't take up the cable slack quickly enough, kinked

and jammed.  The aircraft stalled at about 2 meters off the ground, landed

heavily and was destroyed.



It was enough for me to sit up and take notice.  From that day on I have

always been gentle on pushing the throttle forward. When it comes time to

replace my throttle cables I intend to use solid cables.  This is not an

uncommon practice in the aviation industry.



In terms of forum courtesy,  in my reading of Gilles contributions and his

WEB site I find that they are extremely well researched and thought out.  I

seem to recall that he is a professional aviator an as such would have

exposure to training and flying time that you and I could only dream about.

I for one consider his contributions always worthy of consideration.



Paul



--

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