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Jeff Linebaugh
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Collierville, TN
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 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: Overhead Approaches |
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Attached is a letter from the CAF concerning Overhead Approaches. It may be old, and a little hard to read, but still applicable. It contains a letter of memorandum from the FAA concerning the legality of overhead approaches, and their interpretation of low approaches.
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
Bottom line: Overhead approaches are not “illegal”. It is up to the pilot to determine if they are safe in a particular situation or location. The pattern information contained in the AIM is “recommended”, not regulatory. It is best to use clear language to describe your actions to others that may be in the pattern so that the “uninitiated” can safely anticipate what you are going to do…
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AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail Signature" <![endif]-->Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net
F1 Rocket #33 N240KT
Memphis, TN.
<![endif]--><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
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Jeff Linebaugh
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: Overhead Approaches |
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Linedogg,
That was the exact document that I was referring to. I just have not gotten it scanned yet. To busy trying to fly the 50 I guess. Atleast that is my excuse and sticking to it!
Anyway, at the top it is addressed from the national airshow director to the FSDO’s, regional airshow coordinators, ect. The argument used by some of the EAA chapter members saw the addressee’s and claimed this was only for airshows. No matter that it was pointed out that there is a specific FAR that covers the overhead pattern to these guys. They only want to use the pattern recommended in the AIM. I did not help that our good friends at AOPA came out with their guidelines for airport entry to an uncontrolled airport. That pamplet has been freely distributed among the pilots on our airfield and frequently quoted.
Now I just wait until the pattern is clear or has lightened up before pressing in. If pressed for time, then I just enter the downwind only to generally be frustrated by the bug smasher on 3 mile base-final turn!
Bottomline, use of the overhead pattern is not an illegal pattern entry. But we can be “dead right” and still be dead. I am for using the overhead entry because it personally gives me more time to scan the sky ahead hopefully finding that guy on the 5 mile 45 degree pattern entry calling downwind to umptyump uncontrolled air field. Who knows, he maybe a “heavy driver” reverting to old habits! :>))
As the ol’ Lindogg says, “fly safe out there.” We all have to share the airspace so prudence is the better part of valor. As much as we want to do that cool overhead entry always be prepared to breakout and re-enter. Set your Joker and Bingo fuels so you have some playtime in the pattern to allow the uneducated or arrogant to get out of your way.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Linebaugh
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:47 PM
To: Yak-List(at)Matronics. Com
Subject: Overhead Approaches
Attached is a letter from the CAF concerning Overhead Approaches. It may be old, and a little hard to read, but still applicable. It contains a letter of memorandum from the FAA concerning the legality of overhead approaches, and their interpretation of low approaches.
Bottom line: Overhead approaches are not “illegal”. It is up to the pilot to determine if they are safe in a particular situation or location. The pattern information contained in the AIM is “recommended”, not regulatory. It is best to use clear language to describe your actions to others that may be in the pattern so that the “uninitiated” can safely anticipate what you are going to do…
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net
F1 Rocket #33 N240KT
Memphis, TN.
[quote][b]
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dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: Overhead Approaches |
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I completely agree with Doc and Jeff. When you DO get challenged about your overhead approach, ask the person challenging you if they have ever crossed mid-field into the downwind at an uncontrolled field. Then ask, why is that any more acceptable (or more safe) than the overhead break into the downwind? Maybe because from the mid-field crossing into the downwind you only make a 90 degree turn? I don't think so! The subject will switch very quickly to, "Well, maybe so, but what does "on a 2 mile initial" mean? Then it will turn to "This is not a military field and you shouldn't be making military type approaches." Ask "why not?" The answers you will get are everything from soup to nuts. The bottom line is those who fly standard, rectangular patterns regardless of whether their downwind is 2 miles from the airport, don't want you flying any so-called "non-standard" approach.
Doc and I along with the other Yak's flying in and out of our airfield have been dealing with this for well over 2 years. We have taken the initiative to try and educate (hasn't done a whole lot of good) and to do everything possible to deconflict in every possible way, both in the air AND on the ground, with those that refuse to accept the fact that what we do is not against FAA regulations. Some of these so-called "fellow aviators" have even put anonomous phone calls (read-no balls) into our FSDO and complained about the Yaks doing this and the Yaks doing that. It's the visability that we don't want within the FSDO.
Maybe the next time we enter the airport area in a 3 or 4 ship, we'll be at 500' above pattern altitude with our standard 5 second break and THEN take the flight away from the airport to enter a normal 45 degree entry into the downwind, in trail. I can hear it now.... "The Yaks are taking up the entire traffic pattern and we had to do 360's just to get in on the 45 to downwind."
IMHO, one thing we must always be cognizant of is the fact that we are the exception and not the rule and we have to be ready and willing to "knock it off" if the situation has even the slightest potential for danger. God forbid if one of use is involved in scraping paint (or worse) with a Cessna, Piper, Beech etc. at an uncontrolled field. The visibility because of our type of aircraft will reek havoc on our community. Every one of us is an ambassador for our type of aircraft AND our friends who fly them. None of our egos, and we all have them, should be too big to say, "knock it off". Better to do that and to fly again another day.
Dennis
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Jeff Linebaugh
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Collierville, TN
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: Overhead Approaches |
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Dennis…good point in my book.
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A proactive suggestion to promote good will and safety: Take all the local CFIs for rides and demonstrate/have them fly an overhead. Explain why it is advantageous and safer to fly an overhead in these aircraft. Show them some acro too. Don’t be surprised when they are ham-fisted and don’t know how to use the rudder…and are appreciative of the chance to get to learn…
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I take no credit for this suggestion. I have a good friend (Dr. Morris Ray for those of you who know him too…!) that has been flying T-6s and other warbirds for years (Aeroshell team-member, etc.) He recently retired as a neurosurgeon and took on the job as chief instructor at the local flight school. His first order of business? Take every instructor up in his T-6. Teach them about the rudder, flying a taildragger, show them acro, AND give them an intro to formation and overhead approaches. (Oh and it was all for free…$$!) Since then, we have seen a marked increase in the cooperative attitudes in the pattern, and we all feel safer.
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The cooperation goes both ways… We now think a bit more about how the Cessna driver holding short #1 is paying $3 a MINUTE to watch us land (and gets paid minimum wage pumping gas to pay for his lessons…) I always look for an excuse to stay airborne a little longer anyways: if someone is waiting for takeoff, we go straight through for another lap around the pattern, or delay the break to allow departures.
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Just food for thought…
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AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail Signature" <![endif]-->Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh(at)earthlink.net
<![endif]--><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
[quote][b]
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Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
Collierville, TN |
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dstroud(at)storm.ca
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: Overhead Approaches |
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I think you lads that are trying to educate "others" rather than belittle or
beat your intentions into them is a very good approach. I would certainly
appreciate it. For my own education, as it is likely that I will fly in the
same airspace as some of you in the future, would someone be kind
enough to answer these few questions when they have a chance?
1. When arriving solo at an uncontrolled strip, what
is your typical landing procedure including radio calls? I hear talk of overhead
approach, a break, and have seen what I can only describe as a zoom / dive
in line with the runway then zoom up to a downwind, then pretty much a
rounded base into final. What is the logic for the procedure?
2. What the heck is a cloth ear?  Thank you.
David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
C-FDWS Christavia
Fairchild 51 under construction
and on the gear...
[quote] ---
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:33 am Post subject: Overhead Approaches |
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David,
I have not seen anyone try to reply to this post yet so here goes.
Cloth ear? Sorry, I have not got a clue..Can only assume it refers to the earlier generation of civilian pilots that flew with cloth helmets and head sets. Or maybe it refers to civilian pilots in general with out a clue. Then again it could reference the WW I aviators with no radios or the early 30’s aviators.
The dive from intial to fly a 500 ft low approach with it terminating with a climbing turn to pattern downwind is a WW II approach. The FAA (US) discourages the use of that type approach for pattern entry. It is a setup for an accelerated stall as the high G base turn from the overhead break could be too.
Cotton ear I understand. Those are the children that had an ear ache. Their mothers had put Aralgan anesthestic drops (or someother otic medication) in the ear to stop the pain. Obviously the cotton ear plug was to keep the medication from running out. They had trouble hearing with all that crap in the way though.
The overheads that most of us discussed so far refer to what essentially is a circle that is with the crosswind turn begining over the approach end numbers. The shape of the circle maybe symetrical or oval depending on the number in the flight and the comfort level of the single ship pilot for doing a tight turning break over the numbers. The circle maybe just be that, a symetrical spiraling down approach and landing that begins about 1 to 1.5 mi from the numbers on stabilization of the flight or individual aircraft if solo. It is begun 500 feet above the pattern altitude. This circle like the square patterns has 4 quarters to it. The intial entry, cross wind turn, downwind, base turn, and final. If it is a single aircraft flying the overhead, the intial approach point is typically 3 to 5 miles from the airfield but can be 2 or 1 mile. The radio call is typically, YAK (CJ) N number 3 miles Initial, over head, 27 or whatever runway that is active. At intial entry, the a/c is at 500 feet above pattern altitude (if flown as discribe in the FAR) and is beginning a decent to pattern altitude to arrive on downwind at pattern altitude. In other words, the cross wind turn is a descending turn. The “break” begins as the a/c arrives over the approach end runway numbers. It is flown at 2 g’s, 60 degrees of bank, and for 180 degrees of turn so as to rollout on downwind parrallel to the runway. The inboard wingtip typically is on or near the edge of the runway. The radio call is “YAK 60 Sierra Hotel downwind 27” if that is the runway you are landing on. The gear is dropped at the “perch” (abeam the approach end numbers) and the decending base turn is begun or continued if the singleton is doing an approach end break. The radio call is “YAK 60 Sierra Hotel, Base, Gear, Pressure, Full Stop 27 (or Low Approach and/or touch and go for closed 27)”. Closed simplely meaning I’m staying in the pattern with entry to cross wind coming as a climbing turn at the departure end numbers. The base curvalinear turn continues throughout the base turn (about 30 degress for some and for the bigger risk takers.60 degrees of bank) to roll out on final about 50 to 100 ft AGL over the TDZ stablizing for landing and making the radio call, “YAK 60 Sierra Hotel , Final, full stop 27 ( if making a full stop)”. Granted the roll out altitude may vary some and particularly for me with the 50, that turn keeps coming until I’m about 8 to 10 feet above the runway ( angle of bank is intuitively lessened to keep from scrubbing a wingtip). This being because the continued turn allows me to see my approach to the runway longer along the side of that long nose before that 13 degrees of Alpha blocks out the runway in a 3 point landing attitude.
The overhead maybe the symetrical circle as just discribed or it maybe elongated to an oval shape if the single aircraft or a flight of aircraft are entering the pattern. The break may come at the intial end of the runway, mid field, or at the departure end (or some point after the approach end numbers but before the departure end numbers). Nothing is written in concret on where the break will be begun.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of david stroud
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:37 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Overhead Approaches
I think you lads that are trying to educate "others" rather than belittle or
beat your intentions into them is a very good approach. I would certainly
appreciate it. For my own education, as it is likely that I will fly in the
same airspace as some of you in the future, would someone be kind
enough to answer these few questions when they have a chance?
1. When arriving solo at an uncontrolled strip, what
is your typical landing procedure including radio calls? I hear talk of overhead
approach, a break, and have seen what I can only describe as a zoom / dive
in line with the runway then zoom up to a downwind, then pretty much a
rounded base into final. What is the logic for the procedure?
2. What the heck is a cloth ear? Thank you.
David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
C-FDWS Christavia
Fairchild 51 under construction
and on the gear...
[quote]
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Scooter
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Overhead Approaches |
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I've been reading with great interest this thread. I agree with everything. But its been over complicated.....Make your intentions known well ahead of time, if a spammer says...huh????? and then you hear other people making pattern calls after you have made your intentions perfectly clear....." Red Flight of 4, 3 mile initial RW 27, we will be flying upwind with a left hand break to land..... and you are 2 miles out and you still hear "Uhhh Cesna N4321DA uhm turning base ............RW 27 uh touch....uhhh full stop....no wait....go around...."NEW VOICE ON RADIO"...172DeltaAlpha going around........
Once needs to say should we prodceed?
Ernie
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pilko2(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: Overhead Approaches |
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Sorry....I can't hear you........ I'm a bit deaf !
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