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Firefly Landing speed

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DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: Firefly Landing speed

Group, 

 

  I have installed a winter ASI as suggested by John H. and it appears to be accurate.  It seems my Firefly settles on the runway at 40 indicated with no flaps. Does that sound right?  Also my 447 is running with Egt's at 950* and cht's at 375*-400 *  at  5700-5800 rpms. Does that sound good or do I need to have higher egts in order to reduce carbon?  

 

      Ed Diebel   FF# 62

**************************************

 See what's free at http://www.aol.com.  [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: Firefly Landing speed

I would like my cht to be about 50 degrees lower, and my egt about 100 -  150 degrees higher. If you have an adjustable pitch prop, taking out a bit  of pitch ought to accomplish both. 

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: Firefly Landing speed

ED 

 I would repitch your prop on that engine to 6250 RPM's  WOT in flight I think your EGT might be able to stand  to be in the range of 1100 to 1200  CHT should be around 300  

 this is how I like my 447 to be set up  others might have different ideas  but I posted this so you know how I run my engine 

 hope it helps you 

 stalls at 30 Mph in Fat Firestar but Clean with a 447  

 

 Ellery  in Maine 

 do not archive

**************************************

 See what's free at http://www.aol.com.  [quote][b]

beauford

Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 127
Location: Brandon, FL

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: Firefly Landing speed

Ed:

 Since you are asking, mine is propped at 6500  level WOT... egt's show 1080 to 1100  at cruise... 1180 to 1200 at  closed throttle glide.   Since mine was converted to the green-dot  pistons over at the Lockwood Castle, the head temps hang around 370 to 375 at  cruise....  that's a 5900 cruise...   Mine indicates about the  same VSO airspeed as yours...38, 39 or so... but with no static side  hookup ...???  who really knows?  I weigh 208 and I think around  40 is where it actually pays off (vortex generators and all) with my flabby  fanny in the front end... I climb it at 60, glide it at 60, cruise it at 65  indicated.   Based on your numbers, I agree with the others that you  could likely stand to take a little pitch out of your prop...

  

 Worth what ye paid fer it...

  

 Beauford

 FF076

 Brandon, FL

 [quote]   ---

jimhefner

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Firefly Landing speed

Beauford, I can't help but ask if you have a VSI in your FF?  If so, what is your climb rate (fpm) and sink rate when you are climbing at 60 and gliding at 60?  That seems faster than I remember.... I recall Vy was more like 45 and Vg was roughly the same...  I played around with the Vg using the VSI to make sure I knew what the optimal glide speed was in case of an engine out and 45 was it.  



I wanted to clarify this with you so other FF owners don't get confused about what Vy and Vg for the FF is.... I think you are just saying that is what you regularly do, you're not saying that is Vy or Vg.... right?  I assume your climb rate at 60 is well below what it would be at Vy and your sink rate at 60 is well above what it would be at Vg.  



It's been a while since I flew the FF so I might be remembering something wrong... if others see different numbers, please pitch-in.  I did have VG's installed but they didn't seem to affect these numbers much... only stall speed.



Thanks

_________________
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
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beauford

Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 127
Location: Brandon, FL

Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: Firefly Landing speed

Jim:

You are correct, sir.... and I do have a VSI in the Kleenex Kolb....   So 

named because of the marked similarity of its unpowered ballistic 

characteristics to that of a wadded-up Kleenex....   Vg and Vy work out to 

around 48 indicated for mine.... but I tend to wantonly squander ergs and 

altitude around the 3K ft strip from which I fly, fully confident that the 

machine will instantly decelerate from 60 to any value from 48 to near zero 

with a flick of the elevator wrist if the Nazi noise behind my head were to 

stop unannounced.... and who knows...?  that extra 3 seconds to stuff the 

Kolbisch schnozz toward dirt may be the money-in-the-bank a bankrupt geezer 

needs to keep that last check from bouncing...  I know from experience that, 

in this airplane, with my flabby 208 lb butt in the seat, one can turn 

high-key base at 700 feet looking down at the numbers from a 45 degree 

angle, and still land comfortably within the first one-third of the 

strip....in a stabilized manner without exceeding 60 indicated, and without 

gymnastics beyond a moderate forward slip....  Why voluntarily fly 10 or12 

mph slower on the approach when your machine is capable of such delevitation 

and deceleration?... I mean... you're already UP there, right....?   You 

already bought the gas, annoyed the neighbors and made the 700 foot 

investment...



You must realize that  I  operate airplanes in somewhat of a time warp.... I 

engage in what I laughingly refer to as "flying" encumbered with a somewhat 

paranoid philosophy based upon an ancient instructional edict which held 

that an erstwhile aviator should always strive to preserve the luxury of 

being able to (1) have a moment of quiet "quality" time to recognize and 

relish the stillness of unexpected unpowered flight and an opportunity to 

gracefully (no negative g's...)establish a glide, preferably prior to the 

spin entry; and (2) be able to deposit at least most of the spent carcass of 

the machine, upright, somewhere within the premises of the airfield if the 

worst should happen anywhere in the pattern from crosswind leg on around.... 

Somehow, the concept of taking a few luxurious seconds to SLOW to Vg, makes 

more sense to me than spending a much larger number of infinitely more 

earnest seconds with my Addidas lifted off the floor trying to wish my way 

back UP toVg and still make the field if the bugger packs up....they are 

tons more playful just above Vg than they are 5  knots below it....and I 

just hate that whistling noise they make....



 I have experimented and measured the FireFly numbers, and they are 

approximately as you state them to be... Rest assured that should I find 

myself pressed to stretch a deadstick glide to get over that last lane of 

interstate highway to make the Home Depot parking lot, you will find 48 will 

indeed be the number reflecting in my glassy, but wide, eyeballs....   And 

if the Rotax brothers should abruptly have a falling out and quit holding 

Austrian hands as I am coaxing the reluctant machine over that dreaded fifty 

foot takeoff obstacle, 48 shall be the number, and the value of the number 

shall be 48....not 47, nor 49,  but 48 shall be the mark upon which the 

needle in my forehead will be discovered to have been imbedded....



Long story short...   I can make 48 or 50 happen on the 'ol ASI if 

required.... and I do when I come and go from short, marginal places...  But 

I feel that this draggy, short-winged little airplane warrants a habitual 

cushion when engaged in normal operations out of average size strips...call 

it professional courtesy...that extra 10 or 12 mph can be dumped in a flash 

if one needs it to be... and it is by the time I cross the fence on 

landing... but it's scratched on the side of the big Aviation Rock someplace 

that you cannot spend what you don't have....that 'ol energy ratchet only 

turns in one direction when it is really quiet outside.....  kinda like "gas 

for mama when headed over the Hump during monsoon season..."   (naw, I ain't 

that old...just leave it alone, Possum...).



This is too long-winded...  just call me a speed-freak and be done with 

it....



Worth what ye paid fer it...



Beauford

FF076

Brandon, FL

Do Not Archive



---

jimhefner

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Firefly Landing speed

Thanks for clarifying Beauford...    I sure wish you were joining us at MV.  You would be the life of the party I'm sure!  Whatever works best for you is what you are comfortable with, so speed-freak it is!    

Thanks again.  Cheers!!

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Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
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beauford

Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 127
Location: Brandon, FL

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: Firefly Landing speed

I'm actually quite shy and pretty much partied out...



Hope this crazy weather squares away and permits everyone to make MV 

safely.... Y'all enjoy yourselves...

Beauford

Do Not Archive

---

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: Firefly Landing speed

Jim,



Don't mistake minimum reading on VSI for best glide angle speed. 

Minimum reading on the VSI gives you the minimum sink speed which is 

typically a lot slower than best glide angle speed. On light aircraft, 

absent any better empirical data from actual testing, you can get 

pretty close to the best glide angle speed by finding the speed that is 

approximately 38% between the stall speed (Vs1) and max continuous 

cruise speed (Vh). For example, if your Kolb stalls at 35 mph and its 

Vh is 85 mph a good guess at best glide speed will be about 54 mph, 

derived as follows.



	Vh	85

      -  Vs1	35

	----------

		50

      x          .38

	----------

     =           19

     + Vs1   35

	----------

     =          54    Vbg approximately



Thom in Buffalo

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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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jimhefner

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Firefly Landing speed

Thanks Thom, I haven't heard of that method before.  Vh is not a number you see published often.  I don't know what those numbers work out to in a Firefly (at std conditions) but I think it is not far from minimum sustained sink rate.... in the 45-50 range.  The best glide number is typically very close to Vy (best rate of climb), which is an easier number to figure out for starters.  When I did engine off glide practice I always carried a little over 45 on the ASI and was amazed how well the FF glided... much better than with the engine at 2000 rpm.  Point is it ain't 60... it's 45-50 in a Firefly.  Everyone should be familiar and experiment with these numbers in flight ... they might be important to you some day when it gets unexpectedly quiet ....    



I'm looking forward to seeing the gang at MV soon!!  I hope these crazy winds we've been having lately are all blown out by then!  Today is gorgeous with very light wind.... time to go fly!

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Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
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Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Firefly Landing speed

60 MPH --- That is great advice.  (speaking from my novice experience anyway)



I have been “test flying” my FSII and have put on about 5 hours on it this week.  I was concerned about a lot of things but one was speeds.  The one I was most concerned was about the final approach speed especially after reading the story of Thom  - a.k.a. - “Stalls too High” 



60 right down to the flare and there is no problem slowing down with a flick of the wrist.  Very good advice.  I have followed this procedure to smooth wheel landings.  A crop duster at the field commented that “had the handle on the bird” today.



I can say from what my experience has been so far is a wheel landing is the best.  (I know I am a rookie)  I would be hesitant to do the 60 mph approach and transition into a 3 point landing.  I have flown approaches now at 2500, 3000 and 4000 RPM and this speed is fine.  Keeping the 60 all the way down to the flare is a rush in more ways than one.



I have been flying for many years and have forgotten all about light plane flying.  My regular ride is 6,500# and would not like to be flown the same way as the FS.  I did some TW training this summer to tune up for flying the FS and that was EXTREMELY helpful (plus required for insurance). 

    

Yep, I think I will stick with the 60 on final to the flare.  I was flying tonight and sneezed, jerked the stick at the same time from 65 to 45.  It really is a flick of the wrist.  The thought of imprinting my forehead with the ASI needle at 40 came to mind.

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Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: Firefly Landing speed

At 10:20 PM 8/24/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



60 MPH --- That is great advice.  (speaking from my novice experience anyway)



I have been “test flying” my FSII and have 

put on about 5 hours on it this week. I have 

flown approaches now at 2500, 3000 and 4000 RPM 

and this speed is fine.  Keeping the 60 all the 

way down to the flare is a rush in more ways than one.



--------

Jim O'Day


	


You can get it down lower after you get used to short fields.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8022448200127542755

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Firefly Landing speed

Hey Guys,

                In my Firestar II , I approach at 50 which seems fairly fast...



 40 is a little tricky.....and close to loosing elevator authority  on mine.....



 I'm going into a short field at tommorows Fly-in , I'm thinkin 45



My plane wants to glide and glide when I come in at 50 ( ground effect )



....I have to force in down so I can use the brakes to slow down....



                        Gotta Fly...

                                        Mike & "Jaz" in MN



PS  Fly-in Aug 26 - Wannamingo - Cherry Grove

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Firefly Landing speed

I am learning:  when I get some calm air, I think I will try to slow the short final down.  



I am OK at 60 for now, but it the ground does come at you in a hurry, I can get to 40 mph in about 2 seconds.  Feel it down to the RW, touch down and stick it on.  Seems to be working OK for me, this method with wheel landings.  



Just got down from a nice 1 hour flight.  I seemed to be getting tossed all over the place in thermals.  If I stayed low, ~ 500 agl it was smoother, but 1000 agl was like a roller coaster.  



First mid day flight - prior flying has been done early AM or late PM light.  So I have not flown in any turbulence until today.  I did think about rivets, pins, bolts, fabric ..... put my hand through the motion, ...  kill switch .... BRS handle ... nothing seems to be falling apart ... calmed down and enjoyed the flying.



The pelicans were cruising at 500 agl and the hawks were at 1000' today.  I guess pelicans favor smoother air.  



I guess the technique to use is maintain the airspeed constant and let the moving air take me up and down.  The ups and downs cancel each out ....    Is that the Kolb way?  Maybe some of you buzzards can comment.



And, the video link above.  I saw this before and it blew the myth that when the motor quits, you are going strait down.  Till I saw that, I thought there was some truth to what some had said that the Kolb cannot glide.  Thanks for posting that again.  (any idea of the glide speed?)



Got to mow grass now --- no more flying for me today.

_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: Firefly Landing speed

best glide is usually 1.3 times stall speed on most airplanes as is best

rate of climb, and 1.2 is very close to minimum sink speed.

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: Firefly Landing speed

Before you get too set on an approach speed remember this:  A headwind

will initiate a wind gradient.  For example:  a 20 mph headwind will

cause a wind gradient at about 12 feet, more or less.  Therefore the

wind velocity will change from 20 mph to about 15 mph or less at 12

feet.  Of course, with a 30 mph headwind the gradient will rise a little

and the difference in wind velocity will be more.  What does a pilot do?

Most carry more airspeed so that they will not be stalled or near stall

speed when the descend through the gradient.  Or, you can land like a

bird or a Navy pilot with a circle approach which takes you down through

through the gradient on base leg where you will not notice the hazard.

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Firefly Landing speed

Best Glide is equal to making the most DISTANCE from your height



Minimum Sink is equal to making the most TIME aloft from your height

Best Glide:

It is 1.3 x stall speed plus 1/2 the head wind speed.



If you are flying down wind it is just 1.3 x stall.



You MUST factor in the head wind speed.



So 35 stall equals about 47 for maximum distance in calm air.

Headwind Best Glide:

If there is a headwind add half the windspeed as well.

(ie 15mph headwind adds ~7 so 47+7=54)

Tailwind Best glide:

Just fly between 47(1.3xstall) or even down to minimum sink speed and enjoy your nice Loooong glide.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

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