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Thank you, John Lawton.

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topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Last year, I had the pleasure of flying into John's airstrip, in 

Tennessee and visiting with him and his near finished bird, for a 

while.  In our conversation, John mentioned how sealing up the aircraft 

would clean up the lines, resulting in better speeds.  As John said, the 

glider guys do it and it works.  Well, while I had Baby Blue 

disassembled and was cleaning her up for Sun-N-Fun (which she did not 

make, as she was still ailing from the weak carb spring incident) I 

decided to add some gap seals to the wing, to seal the flaps, upon 

retraction.  What I used was a 2.25" wide piece of .020" styrene, a 

product that I use, almost daily in my sign/graphics business.  I 

attached it to the wing using 1" hem tape (a very strong, two sided 

tape, used to hem banners).  Once the engine was restored to normal 

operating condition, the results were immediate and astounding.  I 

haven't done a complete test, yet, but the results seems to have yielded 

about 4-5 kph at cruise.  It has also resulted in more float, during 

landing, which I attribute to reduced stall speeds.  I say reduced stall 

speeds, because, by reducing my final approach from 65 kph to 60 kph, 

across the numbers, Baby Blue lands like she used to.  I'll be doing 

more extensive tests, as the weather settles.  However, I am extremely 

pleased with the initial results of the simple and inexpensive mod.  

Thanks again, John for your suggestion...



Jeff - Baby Blue

284 hours

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Jeff

are you sure the seal strip was styrene? The glider boys over here use 

Melinex which is polyethylkene teraphthalate. Dacron to you and Terylene 

to us but in film form. They make pop bottles from it too.

Keep us informed about your performance gains please/

Graham



Rman wrote:

   What I used was a 2.25" wide piece of .020" styrene, a

 	  Quote: 	
		   product that I use, almost daily in my sign/graphics business.  I 

 attached it to the wing using 1" hem tape (a very strong, two sided 

 tape, used to hem banners).  Once the engine was restored to normal 

 operating condition, the results were immediate and astounding.  

 Thanks again, John for your suggestion...

 

 Jeff - Baby Blue

 284 hours

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Graham,

Yes, I'm sure it is styrene.  I buy it in 4 x 8 sheets at .020" 

thickness for under $7. a sheet.  In the sign industry, we use it for 

commercial displays.  Cut to size, add your graphics and a few strips of 

velcro on the back.  It's not the same as the stuff used by the glider 

guys, but is apparently just as effective, for a much lower price...

Jeff - Baby Blue

Graham Singleton wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>

 Jeff

 are you sure the seal strip was styrene? The glider boys over here use 

 Melinex which is polyethylkene teraphthalate. Dacron to you and 

 Terylene to us but in film form. They make pop bottles from it too.

 Keep us informed about your performance gains please/

 Graham

 Rman wrote:

   What I used was a 2.25" wide piece of .020" styrene, a

> product that I use, almost daily in my sign/graphics business.  I 

> attached it to the wing using 1" hem tape (a very strong, two sided 

> tape, used to hem banners).  Once the engine was restored to normal 

> operating condition, the results were immediate and astounding.  

> Thanks again, John for your suggestion...

>

> Jeff - Baby Blue

> 284 hours

>

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Jeff,

Why does the tape need to be so wide, or does it just come in 2 1/4" widths? 

If you get a chance, perhaps you could publish a photo.

Best wishes,

William



---

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 11:31 pm Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Jeff



Are you talking about landing flap up or flap down?



Regards



Pete



--

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Flaps down...

 

 Jeff

 

 Pete Lawless wrote: [quote]   [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" <pete(at)lawless.info> (pete(at)lawless.info)  Jeff  Are you talking about landing flap up or flap down?  Regards  Pete  --

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:23 am Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

William,



1" of the 2.25"s is used up on the wing, by the attachment tape.  The 

other 1.25"s spans the gap and spills out onto the flap.  I'm going to 

trim the strip, until it affects the flight characteristics and see what 

happens.  I'll report my findings.



Jeff



William Mills wrote:

[quote] 

 <william(at)wrmills.plus.com>



 Jeff,

 Why does the tape need to be so wide, or does it just come in 2 1/4" 

 widths? If you get a chance, perhaps you could publish a photo.

 Best wishes,

 William



 ---

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:32 am Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Jeff  

   

That rather suggests that this ‘gap seal’ does not just block the gap with the flaps up but improves the airflow over the flap though the gap when the flaps are down.  

   

Is there a picture of it anywhere?

 

 Regards  

   

Pete  

   

--

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Pete and all,

 

 I finally found the time and the photos.  You can see the process and end result here:  http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=Flap-Seals-Baby-Blue&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

 

 Jeff - Baby Blue

 285 hours

 

 Pete Lawless wrote: [quote]         14 Hantone Hill             

Jeff   

    

That rather suggests that this ‘gap seal’ does not just block the gap with the flaps up but improves the airflow over the flap though the gap when the flaps are down.   

    

Is there a picture of it anywhere?

   

 Regards   

    

Pete   

    

-----Original Message-----

   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jeff B

   Sent: 07 May 2007 16:06

   To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

   Subject: Re: Thank you, John Lawton.   

    

 Flaps down...

   

 Jeff

   

 Pete Lawless wrote:    [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" <pete(at)lawless.info> Jeff Are you talking about landing flap up or flap down? Regards Pete --

wmjack1(at)t3cs.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Jeff,  

   

The technique looks just like what we have been using for years to curtail turbulence around racing sailboat rudders and trim tabs.  I know it works well enough, in the denser medium of water, to provide measurable speed improvements. There is certainly every reason to believe it will work in a similar fashion around moveable aviation appendages.  

   

Jack Hilditch  

         

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff B

 Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 1:52 PM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Thank you, John Lawton.  

  

   

Pete and all,

 

 I finally found the time and the photos.  You can see the process and end result here:  http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=Flap-Seals-Baby-Blue&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

 

 Jeff - Baby Blue

 285 hours

 

 Pete Lawless wrote:   

Jeff  

   

That rather suggests that this ‘gap seal’ does not just block the gap with the flaps up but improves the airflow over the flap though the gap when the flaps are down.  

   

Is there a picture of it anywhere?

 

 Regards  

   

Pete  

   

--

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:58 am Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Thanks for the pixs Jeff....looks very slick and tidy.



Is the width of the styrene wide enough to maintain the seal when the  

flaps are deployed?...or have you designed it so that a gap appears and  

allows for airflow thru the slot?



Fred



On Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 10:51  AM, Jeff B wrote:



[quote] Pete and all,



 I finally found the time and the photos.  You can see the process and  

 end result here:   

 http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=Flap-Seals-Baby- 

 Blue&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php



 Jeff - Baby Blue

 285 hours



 Pete Lawless wrote:



 14 Hantone Hill



 Jeff



  



 That rather suggests that this ‘gap seal’ does not just block the gap  

 with the flaps up but improves the airflow over the flap though the  

 gap when the flaps are down.



  



 Is there a picture of it anywhere?



 Regards



  



 Pete



  



 --

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

The effect of your seal is not much different  to the standard set-up on the Classic wing, which has a similar but narrower  (about 1" rather than 1.25") rearward-projecting 'seal' built in, because of hte  method of construction.

  

 I asked Don Dykin about this a few years ago  (mainly in relation to a question about the smoothness of the inner duct formed  in the TE of the wing, which is provided in the XS but not in the Classic). His  view was that the geometry of the duct was not critical to its operation. I  guess because it is a converging duct designed to merely 'blow' across the top  of the flap to delay or prevent its stall.

  

 Duncan McF.

 [quote]   ---

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Good question, Fred.  I'll have to look, next time I go out... 

 

 Jeff

 

 Fred Klein wrote: [quote]Thanks for the pixs Jeff....looks very slick and tidy. 

   

 Is the width of the styrene wide enough to maintain the seal when the flaps are deployed?...or have you designed it so that a gap appears and allows for airflow thru the slot?   

   

 Fred   

   

 On Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Jeff B wrote:   

   

   [quote]Pete and all,     

     

 I finally found the time and the photos.  You can see the process and end result here:      http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=Flap-Seals-Baby-Blue&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php     

     

     Jeff - Baby Blue     

 285 hours     

     

 Pete Lawless wrote:     

     

     

     

 14 Hantone Hill     

     

 Jeff     

     

       

     

 That rather suggests that this ‘gap seal’ does not just block the gap with the flaps up but improves the airflow over the flap though the gap when the flaps are down.     

     

       

     

 Is there a picture of it anywhere?     

     

 Regards     

     

       

     

 Pete     

     

       

     

     --

steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Jeff, You are confusing me (it does not take much I  hear some say!) 

 I thought I understood from other e-mails that it  was necessary to maintain a gap in the flap to allow air to flow upwards when  the flap is extended. However your photos suggest that your seal will stop any  air going up through the flap at all stages of flight (or is this not the  case?).

 I can understand sealing the ailerons and have seen  this quite clearly on gliders over this weekend, but they don't have flaps so it  does not apply to them. 

 Can someone please point me to an explanation of  the aerodynamic theories surrounding this subject. Thank you

 Steve Pitt

 G-SMDH

   [quote][b]

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Steve, 

 

 My understanding is that preventing the air going over the flap, in cruise, reduces drag, resulting in higher cruise speed, which I have experienced.  I don't have the engineering background to completely understand what is happening to the wing, in flight.  That's why I depend on the guys on the list to keep me straight.  I'm more of a "try it and see" kinda guy...   John's advice is based on the success that the glider guys have had, sealing the gaps.  It seems to have worked on Baby Blue, as well.  Continued testing will tell to what degree of advantage the seals make.  It may very well prove that the extra few knots is not worth the float upon landing.  I won't know until I satisfy myself that I've explored all the angles (and strip widths)... 

 

 Jeff

 

 Steve Pitt wrote: [quote]            Jeff, You are confusing me (it does not take much I hear some say!) 

   I thought I understood from other e-mails that it was necessary to maintain a gap in the flap to allow air to flow upwards when the flap is extended. However your photos suggest that your seal will stop any air going up through the flap at all stages of flight (or is this not the case?).

   I can understand sealing the ailerons and have seen this quite clearly on gliders over this weekend, but they don't have flaps so it does not apply to them. 

   Can someone please point me to an explanation of the aerodynamic theories surrounding this subject. Thank you

   Steve Pitt

   G-SMDH

 [b]

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Jeff,  would you happen to have a photograph of what your seal looks like with the flap  down ? - Paul

    [quote][b]

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Paul, 

 

 I will take a few pics at the earliest convenience and post them to the album...

 

 Jeff

 

 Paul McAllister wrote: [quote]            Jeff, would you happen to have a photograph of what your seal looks like with the flap down ? - Paul

    	  Quote: 	
		  





  	
 [b]

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: Thank you, John Lawton.

Jeff...



Measuring my wings w/ full flaps, I find a gap between the vertical 

wing close out and the leading edge of the flap to be 4.25 inches.



Fred

On Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 03:07  PM, Jeff B wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Paul,



 I will take a few pics at the earliest convenience and post them to 

 the album...



 Jeff



 Paul McAllister wrote:



 Jeff, would you happen to have a photograph of what your seal looks 

 like with the flap down ? - Paul



<image.tiff>
	


 	  Quote:

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