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VG Installation
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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: VG Installation

I would like to install my VG's only once, and permanently and, Diego has also stated that is what he wants to do.  So the burning question on everyones mind is where can we see the results of Richard Pikes test, and the magical placements of the VG's ???  Does he have a webpage or is it buried in the archives somewhere ?  Any help finding this would be appreciated.



I feel for you kiwimick, that just sucks beyond beleif that government and the control freaks have gotten so out of control that you cannot install VG's on your Kolb...    It is my beleif that Kolb designed a great airplane, but technology advances, and the design should continue to advance along with everything else.   If the Kolbs had not advanced beyond the origional model, most of us be flying something else, the design of the Kolbs must evolve and improve or it will eventually die.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject: VG Installation

Back on January 14th of this year, in response to some questions you 

asked about vortex generators,  I gave you an answer and posted therein 

a link to my web page showing the VG's on the MKIII and also on the FSII.

I have since posted on January 24th another link to the web page 

following a query about VG's for the FSII.

These posts are in the archives.

Also, if you go to Google, and simply type in "Kolb MKIII" - 

it is my web page that pops up at the top of the list.

I guess you must have missed it... :-\

But anyway, here it is again. Enjoy.

http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/kolb.htm

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I would like to install my VG's only once, and permanently and, Diego has also stated that is what he wants to do.  So the burning question on everyones mind is where can we see the results of Richard Pikes test, and the magical placements of the VG's ???  Does he have a webpage or is it buried in the archives somewhere ?  Any help finding this would be appreciated.



 I feel for you kiwimick, that just sucks beyond beleif that government and the control freaks have gotten so out of control that you cannot install VG's on your Kolb...    It is my beleif that Kolb designed a great airplane, but technology advances, and the design should continue to advance along with everything else.   If the Kolbs had not advanced beyond the origional model, most of us be flying something else, the design of the Kolbs must evolve or it will eventually die.



 Michael A. Bigelow



 --------

 NO FEAR -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10911#10911

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Possum

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject: VG Installation

I would assume if you are going to use the "Landshorter" VG's that

you would naturally follow their instructions on where to put

them, as they seem to have already done the wind tunnel

tests and are selling them to the ultralight community knowing

the type of planes we are putting them on.

Mine are at the suggested 10% to 12% (of the cord of the

wing - including the ailerons) back from the leading

edge + about 6.5 inches as measured thru the cord.



I guess we could do our own wind tunnel test- anybody got

a spare one their not using this weekend?

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: VG Installation

Thanks a lot Richard,  I remember that page now.  I got so involved at looking at all the other stuff you had done, I forgot about the VG's     Really nice workmanship in all the pictures I see on your site.  I really like how you painted everything blue with no scratches, etc, makes it look like  a new plane.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: VG Installation

Richard,

Thanks, you have a great site.

Chris Mallory



Do not archive

---

Possum

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:30 pm Post subject: VG Installation

At 06:06 PM 2/8/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I would assume if you are going to use the "Landshorter" VG's that

you would naturally follow their instructions on where to put

them, as they seem to have already done the wind tunnel

tests and are selling them to the ultralight community knowing

the type of planes we are putting them on.

Mine are at the suggested 10% to 12% (of the cord of the

wing - including the ailerons) back from the leading

edge + about 6.5 inches as measured thru the cord.


	


Should read:



 	  Quote: 	
		  back from the leading

edge = about 6.5 inches as measured thru the cord.

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: VG Installation

In a message dated 2/8/2006 5:59:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

richard(at)bcchapel.org writes:



Also, if  you go to Google, and simply type in "Kolb MKIII" - 

it is my web page that  pops up at the top of the list.

I guess you must have missed it...  :-\

But anyway, here it is again.  Enjoy.

http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/kolb.htm



Richard,

 

Just visited your web page.  Great job.  Good pictures and  excellent 

explanations.  I for one thank you for posting all that FREE  information.  Now I 

think I might give those VG's a try.

 

 

Bill  Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not  Archive

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: VG Installation

Hey, Lar, whaddaya think?  If you put VGs on Vamoose, will they make

it get up in the air sooner, like they claim?  



  -- Robert



On 2/8/06, WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com <WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Just visited your web page.  Great job.  Good pictures and  excellent

 explanations.  I for one thank you for posting all that FREE  information.  Now I

 think I might give those VG's a try.


	


do not archive

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:39 pm Post subject: VG Installation

Didn't someone say something about making it slower ??



I've got the vented valve covers, oil separator, hoses, stock oil pressure 

spring............now just hafta find time (and ambition) to install them 

and fire it up.  Hadta work last weekend - maybe next. 

Lar.



Larry Bourne

Palm Springs, CA

Building Kolb Mk III

N78LB  Vamoose

www.gogittum.com



---

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: VG Installation

Kiwimick writes: << The Landshorter type and the 3" pitch falls right in the

valleys between the ribs, >>



Spacing between ribs on my Mark-III are anywhere from 5 to 5-1/4 inches

apart.  Width of the valleys are not all the same.  I could not achieve a

symmetrical spacing of VGs on my wing using Kiwimick's 3-inch spacing.  Mike

M: Are your ribs at 6-inch intervals?



I plan to install my LandShorter fins 2 per valley, centered at about two

and a half inches apart.  I'll make the template from a piece of cardboard,

with the slots angled as prescribed by Harrison Designs.  I figure as long

as the 2 VGs per valley are uniformly spaced, it won't matter if the valleys

vary slightly in width.



Dennis Kirby

Mark-III, 912ul in

Cedar Crest, NM

Do not archive

kiwimick

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: ENGLAND

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: VG Installation

Hi Dennis, No Mine are standard spacing.

Joa advised me to use 3" spacing, this means the pairs are at 3" which fits 

between each rib in the valley, however the spacing between the pairs is not 

3" it is much less. Simply fit the 3" pairs centrally in each valley.

BTW I conducted the first 2 flights in Pat Ladd's Bird yesterday, a little 

tweeking needed but generally all went very well, 1 hr down 14 to go.



Regards

Mike



---

_________________
Mike the kiwi Kolber in England.......

wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: VG Installation

Most of the VG's that I've seen (including Brother Pike's) have them 

centered on the wing ribs, some however are centered in the valleys. This is 

what prompted my question on where to place them.

Myself, I'm going to center them as Mr. Pike and "The" Beauford have done 

... on the ribs and space each pair at 3" (1% of the total wing span minus 

the width of the cage) as per the Harrison instructions.

Let us know how yours work.



Chris Mallory



Do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: VG Installation

| Joa advised me to use 3" spacing, this means the pairs are at 3" 

which fits

| between each rib in the valley, however the spacing between the 

pairs is not

| 3" it is much less. Simply fit the 3" pairs centrally in each 

valley.

 | Mike



Hi Mike M:



The info above is what I was trying to get from you the last time I 

posted reference spacing and rib valleys.



Is the trailing edge of the MKIIIx wing tapered or parallel to the 

leading edge?  Was wondering if one would have to compensate for 10% 

back placement based on the MKIII wing.  It is tapered based on the 

ailerons and flaps.



Trying to learn what I can about VGs.



Take care,



john h



PS:  Good to hear Patrick L's MKIIIx flies.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Possum

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: VG Installation

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I plan to install my LandShorter fins 2 per valley, centered at about two

and a half inches apart.  I'll make the template from a piece of cardboard,

with the slots angled as prescribed by Harrison Designs.  I figure as long

as the 2 VGs per valley are uniformly spaced, it won't matter if the valleys

vary slightly in width.



Dennis Kirby


	


That's what I did & it worked for me. Not on top of the ribs/

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:22 am Post subject: Re: VG Installation

 	  Possum wrote: 	
		  

That's what I did & it worked for me. Not on top of the ribs

	




Im with you Possum,  I am putting my VG's in the valleys, I think valley placement would definatly be better than the tops of the ribs.  If you can picture the airflow in your mind, you want the little "tornados" that the VG's generate to stay attached to the wing over as great an area is possible.  If The VG's  are on top of a rib and the tornados start already on top of a rib, I picture them being sucked off the top of the rib sooner and not covering or attaching themselves to as much of the wing area.  With the VG's between the ribs, the little tornados are more likely to flow up from the vally, covering both the valley and getting to the tops of the ribs before they seperate.  THis is a "theory" of mine, but I base it on on pictures of tests I have seen in wind tunnels where VG's were tested with air mixed with smoke where you could actually the tornados and how they attached themselves to the wing and where they finally seperated...



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: VG Installation

In my post I said that I was going to CENTER A PAIR of VG's   A PAIR .... A 

PAIR on the wing ribs, meaning one VG on either side of the wing rib (That's 

what CENTER means), A PAIR not a single VG thus leaving two in the valley 

(one each from two pair). Look at R. Pike's photos, look at the pictures on 

Landshorter's web site. The PAIRS are centered on the ribs. A PAIR of VG's 

is two at a 30 degree angle with the front being the closest point of 

separation for the PAIR.



Chris Mallory

do not archive



---

kiwimick

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: ENGLAND

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject: VG Installation

Chris, just to pee on your chips, The land shorter VG photo's may make it 

difficult to actually see exactly the pairing position.

In FACT Joa from Harrison designs gave me a detailed  hand drafted diagram 

of the Recommended and Tested position of the pairs on this type of wing 

construction which has (VALLEYS) and the PAIRS were to be mounted in the 

valleys.



Well thats my last on this topic anyway.



Kind Regards

Mike

---

_________________
Mike the kiwi Kolber in England.......

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