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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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 Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: New letter from Chris Heintz!! 5/11 |
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Two separate claims for two separate standards of airworthiness. What's
so odd about that? One's an Experimental Amateur Built and one has to
meet the consensus standards under Special LSA. Even a Cessna 150 has
two different load factors depending on which category you are operating
it under, Normal or Utility.
[quote]
So now we have two seperate claims from CH about load factor? One stating +6/-3 and another at +6/-6? Hhhhmmm. I doubt even the +6.
[quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]came through white last time...
do not archive
David Downey wrote: [quote]Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 08:16:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Downey
Subject: Re: Re: New letter from Chris Heintz!! 5/11
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
601XL SN 6406 3-15-06 Ed 3 Rev 3 sheet 6-X-1 says:
"Design Load Factor (Ultimate): +/- 6 G (at)1320 lbs"
do not archive
Gig Giacona wrote:
| Quote: |
I'm looking at the cover page of my set of 601XL plans S# 4959.
"Design Load
> [b]
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Bryan Martin
Zenith 601XL N61BM
Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive
Do Not Archive
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Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
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skyguynca
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: Fwd: Re: New letter from Chris Heintz!! 5/11 |
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Hmmm lets see no where did it say Standard or Utility and I have to agree if
you look at the website, promo material two different ratings. NO not like a
150 both the same plane, same weights, same performance but two different
negative g ratings. I hope just a typing error by the webmaster.
David Mikesell
23597 N. Hwy 99
Acampo, CA 95220
209-224-4485
skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com
www.skyguynca.com
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Kurt.Schumacher(at)schumi
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: New letter from Chris Heintz!! 5/11 |
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Ha, here is one more - the European distributor http://www.zenair.be/?PG=2 claims for the “normal” 601 XL (not the re-Europeanized 601 XL ULM variant as shown under http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-ulm.html without technical data):
PERFORMANCE
CH601 XL w / ROTAX 912S
TOP SPEED
148
MPH
238
km/h
CRUISE (75%)
138
MPH
222
km/h
STALL SPEED V FE (with flaps)
38
MPH
60
km/h
STALL SPEED (no flaps)
48
MPH
78
km/h
RATE OF CLIMB
1200
FPM
4,8
m/sec
TAKE-OFF ROLL
500
Feet
152
m
LANDING DISTANCE
500
Feet
152
m
RANGE (std., no reserve)
600
s. m
960
km
ENDURANCE (no reserve)
4,5 h
NEVER EXCEED SPEED (VNE)
180
MPH
290
km/h
LOAD FACTOR (G)
+ 4 / - 2 g
This leads back to the realistic assumption (unless confirmed by the factory) +6/-4 ultimate and +4/-2 limit is realistic.
At least – these are the numbers CZAW had published in better times.
-Kurt.
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: New letter from Chris Heintz!! 5/11 |
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They are not the same airplane, technically speaking. The +6 -3 G rated
plane is factory built by AMD in Georgia to meet the consensus standards
for S-LSA. The +6 -6 G rated plane is a homebuilt kit from Zenith
Aircraft in Missouri for Experimental Amateur Built. Two separate
airplanes built by two separate companies to two separate airwortiness
standards. Even if they are nearly identical in all other respects.
The consensus standards may have different guidelines for load ratings
than the homebuilt industry which may account for the difference. The G
ratings for the homebuilt version are probably based entirely on the
structural strength of the airframe and other components. The reduced
negative G rating for the S-LSA may be based on other considerations as
well. There are no set rules for homebuilt like there are for S-LSA.
Perhaps it takes into consideration the fuel system limitations for
instance. I don't know, I haven't studied the standards. But I would not
be surprised if the difference in load ratings is purely a technicality
of the S-LSA standards.
The Zodiac kits sold in Europe have to be certificated under European
rules which are also more restrictive than the American E-AB rules,
which probably accounts for the difference in load ratings there.
I never implied that the difference was because one was utility and one
was standard since those terms in no way apply to either the S-LSA or
the E-AB airworthiness certificates, I merely used the C-150 as an
example of how aircraft specifications can differ for the same type
aircraft based on the certification standards it was being operated under.
David Mikesell wrote:
| Quote: |
<skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com>
Hmmm lets see no where did it say Standard or Utility and I have to
agree if you look at the website, promo material two different ratings.
NO not like a 150 both the same plane, same weights, same performance
but two different negative g ratings. I hope just a typing error by the
webmaster.
David Mikesell
>
> <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>
>
> Two separate claims for two separate standards of airworthiness.
> What's so odd about that?....
>
>>
>>
>> So now we have two seperate claims from CH about load factor? One
>> stating +6/-3 and another at +6/-6? Hhhhmmm. I doubt even the +6.
>>
>>
>
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Bryan Martin
Zenith 601XL N61BM
Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive
Do Not Archive
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_________________
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Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
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skyguynca
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: New letter from Chris Heintz!! 5/11 |
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I have read as many people have the ATSM standards for LSA and no where
would it say to lower or recalculate it lower. I really don't see what point
you are trying to make. The XL is a XL no matter who builds it. They are
built from the same materials and plans to the standard set by the designer
CH.
David Mikesell
23597 N. Hwy 99
Acampo, CA 95220
209-224-4485
skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com
www.skyguynca.com
---
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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: New letter from Chris Heintz!! 5/11 |
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Hi David,
I have trouble accepting your position that an XL is an XL is an
XL. The CH601XL is not a single design. The official drawings as
released by ZAC allow for considerable choices including engine, wing
lockers, lights, aileron trim, fuel tank size, landing gear
configuration, and I'm not sure what else. In addition, the CZAW
CH601XL had some differences from the ZAC one including composite
landing gear instead of aluminum gear. I suspect AMD has its own
version of the XL including dual sticks instead of the single stick
design that is standard with ZAC. There are also major differences
in the aileron hinge design.
After that extensive list, you need to include the pathetic fact that
ZAC continues to make random design changes without any
announcement. I have seen several different elevator trim tab
designs, and I know there have been a number of other design changes
since I got my prints two years ago. It is these random design
changes made by the local ZAC engineers (note that CH has retired to
France) that concern me personally the most. Everyone I have talked
to at ZAC seems very nice, but none of them has anything even close
to Chris's experience designing airplanes.
That said, let me repeat that I am delighted Chris has committed to
reviewing and testing the current design again.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 07:06 PM 5/15/2007, you wrote:
| Quote: | I have read as many people have the ATSM standards for LSA and no
where would it say to lower or recalculate it lower. I really don't
see what point you are trying to make. The XL is a XL no matter who
builds it. They are built from the same materials and plans to the
standard set by the designer CH.
David Mikesell
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JohnDRead(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: New letter from Chris Heintz!! 5/11 |
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Instead of uninformed hypothesizing you could try sending a request for clarification to the factory.
John Read
See what's free at AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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