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601XL Fuselage build before wings
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planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 11:36 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Paul, I think you are ignoring the aerodynamic destabilizing effect of the folded wing. Very rarely will a wing fold occur normal to the zero lift line and cause rotation during descent purely as a result of the lift assemtry. The wild gyrations that are the norm for wing fold incidents whether in an ultralight or an ZR71 are usually due to the gross roll, pitch, and yaw forces input from the (still attached) failed wing. The pulsating and very rapid onset of those abnormal forces usually causes the remaining wing (and many times the tail) to fail rapidly thereafter. Sometimes the aft fuselage wiull twist more than 360° or even off the balance of the wreckage during the descent.



paulrod36(at)msn.com wrote:  [quote]      <?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o"  /><![endif]-->    Not to pick nits here, but the testimony doesn't seem to make sense. If the left wing collapsed and folded rearward, it no longer provided lift. Therefore, the aircraft should have spun to the left. No amount of right rudder could compensate for that loss of lift. There should have been strong turning moment until the right wing gave up. The witness states that the wings remained attached, but folded back. Therefore, the report should discuss either a fracture somewhere in the structure, or a humongous (that's a technical term) folding or bending, all at a specifically identifiable point.   If one witness stated he saw what he thought were pieces of metal separate from the plane, then SOMEBODY should have walked the area to either find the pieces or negate the testimony. You don't just ignore a possible debris field.  With the reports of hearing the engine being revved, I wonder if anyone looked at the powerplane for fuel  restrictions, ignition problem, something that night have demanded higher rpm.  It just seems to me that not everything has been examined and/or analyzed.

   

  Paul Rodriguez

  601XL/Corvair

  DO NOT ARCHIVE

  [quote]  ---

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Well I guess I better put the center of that center wing spar in the center of the fuselage because that is where I measured everything from when I set the dihedral on the bench.  Did one wing spar at a time like the picture below.  Center spar was pilot drilled 1/4, marked the wing spars then drilled them then reset the wing spar and checked dimensions when it was bolted with 1/4, opened the holes one hole at a time while the center and wing were in final position.  Let me know what troubles this might give me.

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Setting wing dihedral

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_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

Darrellhaas(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Question? I have good eyesight. Can a person looking into the sky at an 

airplane 1/2 mile really see the wings flutter? Where was the sun? I live 

1/2 mile from an airport and they fly over my house about 35 a day. I've 

tried to analyze the wings while they fly over and I wouldn't bet I could 

have seen the wings flutter.

Darrell Haas

Wanting to build a plane

---

Flydog1966(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

In a message dated 5/19/2007 4:59:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  Darrellhaas(at)verizon.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Can a    person looking into the sky at an 

airplane 1/2 mile really see the wings    flutter? 	


 

     Maybe if the flutter was REAL big,like, right before  they disintergrate ?

 do not archive



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Matt Ronics

Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 22

Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Tail flutter video:



http://www.vibrationdata.com/Animation/Twin.avi

cbaron66

Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 16

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:46 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Now that is a scary video!!!

austria

Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 7

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Wing flutter video:

http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/Videos/dg-300-flatterversuch.wmv

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  Andy,



I noticed you mentioned you only drilled one side of the center spar.  I set the dihedral of both wing spars and the center spar before I began the wing assembly.  Did I make a mistake here?  Should I have waited to drill one end till later?  Why? 	




I only have one wing spar so far.  The center spar is hanging on the wall. When I'm ready to drill the other I'll set that up flat on the table and set that dyhedral and drill that spar.



Sounds like you made both spars at the same time.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

This can be done one at a time I believe. The plans show the tip height about the center spar. Shouldn't really matter if you do one at a time or both at one, what does matter is that the line drawn to the center spar is parallel to the center sparline and the perpendicular line up to the parallel line from the tip is the measurement called for. In fact, this is hard to do with both spars at the same time because then you need a 27 foot table to do it right.



 	  zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote: 	
		  If you?re a plans builder then you would need to install both spars in

the center spar, run a string and do the math to ensure that both spars

are equally set and proper. Their may be other ways but I can't think of

one that would guarantee accuracy for the plans builder. Then you are

safe to move on and make each wing, knowing that your center spar is

correct and ready for installation into the fuselage.



Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

president(at)can-zacaviation.com

www.can-zacaviation.com 

--

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:02 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  Well I guess I better put the center of that center wing spar in the center of the fuselage because that is where I measured everything from when I set the dihedral on the bench.  Did one wing spar at a time like the picture below.  Center spar was pilot drilled 1/4, marked the wing spars then drilled them then reset the wing spar and checked dimensions when it was bolted with 1/4, opened the holes one hole at a time while the center and wing were in final position.  Let me know what troubles this might give me. 	




This is exactly how I'm doing mine, I just don't have the second spar yet. Doing them both at once requires a 27 foot table. I doubt that was Zenith's intention. Even doing them both at once, you still have to guarantee that the center spar is parallel to the line intersecting the tips, which is exactly the same as insuring a parellel line for one spar at a time. I think you're fine they way you did it.

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Yep, I did them both at the same time.  When both right and left are symmetrically opposite its faster to make both parts at the same time.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 3:27 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  Yep, I did them both at the same time.  When both right and left are symmetrically opposite its faster to make both parts at the same time. 	




You didn't have the 3 spars all setup together as a 27 foot assembly though for drilling the main attach holes, right? You just did the right spar to the center spar then took that apart and setup the left spar in the center spar.



My center spar is now hanging on the wall. Once I make the left spar I'll set the dihedral for that.

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

You are correct, I setup the right and center spar then repeated the process for the left and center spar.  Pretty much just followed the directions on the 6-W-4 drawing and built the right triangle 3588, 3605, 355.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 3:35 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  You are correct, I setup the right and center spar then repeated the process for the left and center spar.  Pretty much just followed the directions on the 6-W-4 drawing and built the right triangle 3588, 3605, 355. 	




Did your second wing go much faster than the first? I'm expecting it will. Considering I already have the forms made and my riveting skills down pat I expect to build the second wing in about half the time or less. Plus, while I messed up my first rear spar in the sense that I reversed it so I actually have the left rear spar made so it's really just a matter of making the main spar and the ribs on the existing reverse forms. Should go pretty fast. Probably not going to get a chance to work on anything for about a month or so though. I have a bunch of jobs around the house I have to get out of the way first. Ugh.



do not archive

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Andy,



Here is the process I followed so far.  Make all the forms first.  Made the rudder, Stabilizer, Elevator w/trim tab, Made all the ribs for the Flaps and Ailerons, Form & Skin the flaps, Trim & Form all wing nose ribs, Form & Skin the Aileron, Form & trim all rear wing ribs, Layed out one wing spar web but made two (had them stacked),  (Used the spar webs as the drilling template for the spar caps and cap angles, made both wing spars.), Made the Center Spars, Set Dihedral, Form both fuel tanks, Build up the left wing skeleton, Make both left and right top & bottom wing skins, The left wing is on the table and nearing completion. The right one will go a lot faster because much less going on inside it and many of the parts are already made.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 2:52 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

I;m roughly at the same stage.



do not archive



 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  Andy,



Here is the process I followed so far.  Make all the forms first.  Made the rudder, Stabilizer, Elevator w/trim tab, Made all the ribs for the Flaps and Ailerons, Form & Skin the flaps, Trim & Form all wing nose ribs, Form & Skin the Aileron, Form & trim all rear wing ribs, Layed out one wing spar web but made two (had them stacked),  (Used the spar webs as the drilling template for the spar caps and cap angles, made both wing spars.), Made the Center Spars, Set Dihedral, Form both fuel tanks, Build up the left wing skeleton, Make both left and right top & bottom wing skins, The left wing is on the table and nearing completion. The right one will go a lot faster because much less going on inside it and many of the parts are already made.

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