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napeone
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 36
Location: Birmingham, Al.
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 Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 5:35 am Post subject: Air System |
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Mark- My thoughts exactly. Be very careful what you put in the air system.
David H.
See what's free at AOL.com.
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JBernier(at)dart.org
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 5:54 am Post subject: Air System |
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There are those oils that can degrade the seals used in the air system. With that in mind, I have been using sewing machine oil. I place about two ounces in the tank once a year. I have been using it for almost two years with no seal leak. I assumed that since this oil lubricates a sewing machine without the problem of soiling cloth it must be good with any synthetic. So far so good. I had the tank out of the plane for inspection recently and found no rust. Just a little oil remaining. On my conditional inspentions I remove the tank, inspect, and add another two ounces.
Just another avenue to the same place.
Jim B.
| Quote: | >> <NapeOne(at)aol.com> 5/24/2007 8:33:57 AM >>>
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Mark- My thoughts exactly. Be very careful what you put in the air system.
David H.
See what's free at AOL.com.
[quote]
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
ics.com
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Air System |
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Now this might be another place for MMO for sure! In the quest to find 101 uses for MMO, this might be #89.
Seriously, we have been adding 6 oz of machine oil along with removing, draining, and drying the tanks at annual. Have not seen any rust in the tanks to date. We generally get about 3 oz of the oil back and a few droplets of water that is less that a couple of ccs’.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of NapeOne(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 8:34 AM
To: Yak-List(at)matronics.com
Subject: Air System
Mark- My thoughts exactly. Be very careful what you put in the air system.
David H.
See what's free at AOL.com.
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HawkerPilot2015
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Air System |
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Good to hear people are taking steps to prevent failure. I suffered two tank failures due to lack of proper care in my airplanes earlier life. We have replaced both tanks but not without a great deal of trouble. If you are a -50 owner, you better start thinking of an alternative to the current setup. I have and it will turn out quite nice and will add some needed cargo space.
The 52 owners have a better outlook.
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: Air System |
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Doc,
Rust is "issue A".
Seals crumbling apart is: "Issue B".
There are at least two types of landing gear actuator seals "out there"
for the YAK-50 that I know of alone. The original Russian seal, and a
replacement that is made here in the United States. The actual material
used in each of them is quite different. The American made seal is more
tolerant of oil. The Russian one will harden, yet still work perfectly
for many years without a problem. However, if it has hardened, and you
add oil, it will crumble and break apart like a piece of burnt wood in
your hands. This is not conjecture speaking here, this is experience.
When making broad, across the board suggestions like "adding oil to the
air system is a good thing", one has to be careful. There is nothing in
any Russian manual about adding oil into the air system. This is a case
of owners of these aircraft seeing rust ... Which is a bad thing.... And
then thinking: "Well, I will just add some oil to this problem which
will help solve that old corrosion issue".
Some of the worst corrosion is seen in the actuators, and there is a
reason for this. The actuators are in fact expansion chambers. Think
what happens when you allow compressed air to expand rapidly.
So we come back to the original problem. Corrosion. In the actuators,
you have several choices. On the 50, you can take them apart, blast off
any and all corrosion, and then paint them with the best epoxy polyamide
paint money can buy. Or you can have them made out of stainless steel
(one gent actually did that). The same thing goes for the air bottles.
Another "good idea" is to mount the air bottles upside down. When you
do that, any water that is in there will come right back out when you
release air for brakes or landing gear actuation.
If you can manage to eliminate the water, you can really slow down the
corrosion process "no matter what". The snot valve is one attempt
towards this. Adding a desiccant filter is yet another.
However, if you want to start adding oil into the air system, I would
strongly suggest you find out the exact type of seal in use on your
aircraft, get one in hand, and cover it with some of the oil you intend
on using. Wait a few months and then take another look at that seal.
Bottom line, if you have brand new landing gear and flap actuator seals,
you are a lot safer adding "oil" or whatever...to your air lines. If
you have an OLD Yak aircraft that has not had the seals replaced since
Christ was a Corporal, I would not rush right in and start squirting oil
all over creation.
I "rushed in".... I also then learned how to blow the gear and remove
and replace the seals in those actuators.
Your milage may vary,
Mark
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: Air System |
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I elaborated on the issue of the oil in a subsequent posting, which I should have done when I first wrote, sorry. Your interest in the exact composition of the seals in use is of course the central issue. The answer to that is: "I don't know". Jill and Carl do sell REPLACEMENT seals, and I would encourage someone to ask them what they are made of. EXACTLY.
When I purchased my 50, the landing gear worked perfectly. 1984 model. I then read about adding air tool oil. I did that. One week later, I heard air gushing out of the landing gear actuator valve in the cockpit when ever the gear was lowered and left down. For those not in the know... Air continuously coming out of your landing gear selector valve is a sure sign of seal failure in the landing gear actuators of the 50 (remember, the 50 has no flaps).
Of course, I did not know this, and took every darn thing in the airplane apart trying to figure out why this was happening. This was my first HARD LEARNING EXPERIENCE with Yaks. It was also the first article I ever wrote on Yak-50's. Long story short, I managed to take the actuator out of the aircraft.... NOT FUN..... Then learned how to take it apart, and almost ruined it in the process.....and then actually managed to get seals and rebuild it. Being lazy, and also very tired and VERY frustrated, I did not bother to replace the actuator on the OTHER side of the aircraft at the same time. Another bad move on my part.
One year later, next Conditional Inspection, I added more air oil to both sides again.
One week later, I was replacing the OTHER landing gear actuator. After having to blow the gear down. Lesson to be learned there too about how fast to open the emergency gear valve. Another lesson to be learned there is what to do AFTER you have lowered the gear. Hint: This differs from a 50 to a 52 in a BIG way.
Point of fact: Both actuators needed new seals.
Point of fact: Adding air tool oil made it no longer an "option".
Nitrogen:
We use dry water pumped nitrogen to purge radar waveguides of moisture in the military. High powered waveguides and even coaxial hardlines are always pressurized with nitrogen. A common variation is to use a compressor and regular air, but running it through a few desiccant containers. So, it was not really my idea.
As to how well it works in my application... No argument. It might not work at all. You mileage may vary.
Thanks for the compliments. There are other who have contributed far more.
Mark Bitterlich
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: Air System |
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Mark,
I believe on the 52 systems that the Russians put a mixture of alcohol,
gycerine and something else to the air tanks at inspection. This was a
thread a couple of years ago also. I agree with all you have said too. Like
I said in an earlier post, I do add sewing machine oil to the tank and have
not experienced a problem to date.
Now I have all new seals too though when the 52 came over from Lithuania.
The 50 had all its' actuator seals replaced in 2002 by Shakety. So I am
leary of adding machine oil to the tanks on the 50 when I pull them in a
couple of weeks. The Lithuanian seals actually come for the US.
Doc
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 3:57 am Post subject: Air System |
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In a message dated 5/25/2007 11:49:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, viperdoc(at)mindspring.com writes:
In the 14 years now (and 1,500 hours) that I've own my CJ, I think I've come to know my air system. Early on, the salt moist air of Florida was playing real havoc with my system. Gear and flap handles were a constant source of leaks, often twice a year. My check valves were balls of corrosion. I developed a leak in my main air valve and on inspection found that the aluminum vale seat was badly corroded and the common steel valve, a ball of rust. (Who thought up that design?). The desiccant dryer/filter would corrode so badly, that it was real bugger too disassemble each time for service. It finally developed hole from corroding though the body.
Here is what I did.
I replaced the main air valve with a stainless steel one made up by Bill Blackwell. I had to grind the valve seat smooth.
I replaced the desiccant dryer/filter with a stainless steel one made by Doug Sapp.
For a while I used the Russian white desiccant that comes in the engine storage crates. This worked fine while I still had the aluminum filter. I've recently gone back to the purple stuff.
I replaced all springs in the check valves and emergency shuttle valves, with stainless steel springs (ACE has them). Each time I inspect them, I clean and apply a light coat of marine axle grease.
The actuators seals were replaced years ago by a US seal. I think I've changed them 3 times since than and than only because I wanted too. About twice a year or every 50 hours or so, I open the air lines on both ends of each actuator. I squirt in a little air tool oil into the lines. Reconnect and safety. I do the same at the first fitting down stream of the dryer/filter. The next time I pressurize the system the oil is sprayed into each actuator. When the gear and flaps are cycled, oil is spread though the entire system. This is very evident when I see a spray of oil mist from the gear and flap handles.
At one point I use WD-40. Than I heard it may not be good for aluminum so I went to air tool oil.
A while back there was some discussion about using diluted Corrosion X in the system. Now I can tell you that this stuff is a total unknown in air systems. I don't think anyone can tell us what it will do to seals. Put when it comes to airframes, this STUFF WILL GO EVERY WHERE ! It coats every thing and seeps along and though the tightest of seams. Maybe some one would want to investigate that.
Though I'd put in my .02 worth. Got to go eat breakfast.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>
Mark,
I believe on the 52 systems that the Russians put a mixture of alcohol,
gycerine and something else to the air tanks at inspection. This was a
thread a couple of years ago also. I agree with all you have said too. Like
I said in an earlier post, I do add sewing machine oil to the tank and have
not experienced a problem to date.
Now I have all new seals too though when the 52 came over from Lithuania.
The 50 had all its' actuator seals replaced in 2002 by Shakety. So I am
leary of adding machine oil to the tanks on the 50 when I pull them in a
couple of weeks. The Lithuanian seals actually come for the US.
Doc
--
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