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The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W
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GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

In a message dated 5/25/2007 11:21:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  What is also needed are tools to fly in the near-IFR conditions we all 

fly in every summer.  I'm not talking clouds or fog, or flying into 

deteriorating conditions but just plain summer haze. 	


 I'm sure you're serious about this statement but if you want to over fly your visibility you might want to consider getting IFR and filing...flying a Cherokee at 120kts is one thing, flying an RV 10 into the same haze at 160kts is another...a hand held is wonder as opposted to nothing but having better situational awareness equipment is better and I'd think a requirement if you want to bust through haze and smoke often.  

  

 In the past year, I've had ultralight flying through controlled airspace untagged, been cut off on final by a skyjocky flying a King Air at over 200 kts shooting a GPS approach to a non-towered airport and he was not on the local freq until he was over the fence--he claimed he was protected because PHL approach had cleared him for the approach--big problem PHL does not own the airspace at non-towered airports...yet he flew by me with in a couple of hundred yards in the haze and muck...the G1000 tagged him so I was able to see him at the last minute and avoid some noise pollution.  While the pilot was an ATP he did not know or remember the rules of flying a non-towered GPS approach.

  

 There are lots of crazy's out their flying, our job is to avoid them at all costs and having a good setup is part of the equation IMHO if you can afford it do it but don't fool yourselves with stuff that's designed for situation awareness into thinking it's certified for operations. Using portable devices and thinking of them as IFR stuff is a formula for disaster...knowing and understanding the difference between active radar and return info or TIS for TCAS etc., may lead one down the path to a chain of events.  It's interesting that many people who invest in TIS equipment don't understand that most of the information they are looking for is only available in limited area coverage and that will probably go away in the next decade.

  

 I was flying a while back and a guy in a Cherokee 140 calls back to the tower when given an advisory for traffic that he had the target on the "T-CAS"...a TCAS system would cost more than his plane was worth...and he did not have a radar pod on his wing either.  Probably had a portable TIS reader and while better than nothing it certainly is not TCAS.

  

 Who was it a while back who could not believe that he could not file "G" because he had a 396 or 496...ever wonder why Garmin does not have all the IFR stuff in these little boxes..they have a lot of good quality awareness information but they are not IFR equipment.



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

Yes!  



I think that the point is well presented and well taken.  I've said to more

than one person that "I don't get it" in terms of all the higher end panels.

Tim, Deems and others have explained their rationale to me and I'm slowly

getting it, but Bill finally put into words what I haven't been able to.  I

love flying for the sake of flying, and to me this means VFR most of the

time.  This is what has been in the back of my mind and I couldn't explain

it.  Thanks, Bill !!



I will get my IFR rating, because I honestly do believe it will make me a

better pilot (and insurance companies might like me better) just as a tail

wheel endorsement will also.  I have a float plane rating and that certainly

has made me better (landing floats on glassy waters requires some precision

that I wasn't used to before).  However, I love the ability to just fly.

Get in and go.  Sure you want to have a flight plan and file it, and sure

you'd like flight following, but there's something about keeping it simple

that appeals to me.  



So, my big challenge has been what to put in that works well in the assumed

IFR future that I know I'll be involved in, but also doesn't bust the bank,

and doesn't just sit there while I have fun looking out the window and down

at my maps occasionally.  And will I keep current enough in real IMC that I

could, honestly, safely, take advantage of the IFR system?  This is a big,

big question.  I think for those who are already IFR trained and that's what

they normally fly, it isn't such an issue to think in terms of the more

advanced systems.  If they can afford it, it probably is a no brainer.  



But there's the rub.  A high end system can make IFR simpler during the high

workload, high risk scenarios that one will, if they fly IFR/IMC, eventually

find.  That's when a current, but not super current, IFR pilot needs that

electronic horsepower.  So, getting a glass panel 6-pack substitute, such as

the AFS EFIS, coupled with a (for example) G430W and some type of MFD, may

not be the safest thing for someone who spends most of his/her time flying

VFR, with only the occasional IFR/IMC usage.  This is why I'm so interested

in the combination of equipment that can bridge that gap between basic IFR

and the high end systems.  You want minimal button pushing and mental

gyrations in those situations that are the highest stress/workload

situations.  It's easy to do enroute with almost any system.  It gets

progressively more difficult for take offs, holdings, approaches, but all of

these have been done for decades on steam gauges, so it's not impossible.

It's just that with all the goodies out there, one wants to put together

something that works well, doesn't bust the bank (for me and I bet many who

are not commenting on the list), but can be effective.  This is why I've

been begging for situational descriptions about how systems work well or

not.  Tim is correct, this is so hard to discuss because everyone is working

for such minimal examples, both in terms of situations and in terms of

equipment.  However, the situations do exist, whether you've experienced

them or read about them, and you know your system, so you can give at least

some type of evaluation how it should work given the situation.  To some it

might also be embarrassing to discuss what has happened and how their system

responded, but we need to discuss these things in order for all of us to

gain.  I want all of us to benefit, and really the only way is to get the

stories out and discuss them.  



Money will be the limiting factor for many of us.  Someone is going to have

to give me oxygen when I plunk down my bucks for the panel.  And that's

after I've been let out of the intensive care unit for the engine payment.

However, when all is said and done, I'll be happy with whatever I have and

practice with it as much as possible.  True enough.  But until then lots of

decisions have to be made.  Bill has helped me understand what it was that I

couldn't get put into words, that I couldn't get past a generalized feeling

about.  That's the beauty of this list and of sharing thoughts.  Please!

Those silent ones out there.  Jump in!  The water is fine.  



John Jessen

  #328



 



--

Vern(at)teclabsinc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 8:54 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

Thanks for reminding me why I started flying in the first place. I've

spent way too much time in the shop and lost sight of what is important

to me.



Vern (#324)



Do not archive



--

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 8:56 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

I understand your concern but I am serious.  Unfortunately, 3 miles in 

haze at 6,000 is legal VFR and near-IFR at the same time (so is 1 mile 

isn't it?) I recall it  being very common to have *all* the enroute 

airports reporting 3 miles or better while struggling to find a good 

horizon, let alone see traffic.



I guess the technical definition of VFR at cruising altitude is 

something like "observed flight visibility" or something.  Not sure how 

to determine that however.  It's a bit less straightforward than 

observing 1/2 mile when measured RVR is 1/4.



I don't think flying in these conditions is akin to "continuing VFR into 

IMC" and it's attendant accident rate.  People generally don't spiral in 

doing day VFR in these quite legal VFR conditions.  They don't spiral in 

at night either because of pervasive ground lighting.  Kennedy over the 

ocean being the obvious trap.  But people do struggle, it is 

uncomfortable, and the horizon is occassionally and momentarily lost. 



So, is a glass EFIS a useful tool for augmenting real world VFR cruising?



BTW, when current, I always fly IFR to at least make flying at IFR 

altitudes a rational tactic for avoiding some traffic.  And if that 

darn  '10 in my hangar would leave me alone, I'd go out and do some 

traveling and get current again!



GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In a message dated 5/25/2007 11:21:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 

 MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com writes:



     What is also needed are tools to fly in the near-IFR conditions we

     all

     fly in every summer.  I'm not talking clouds or fog, or flying into

     deteriorating conditions but just plain summer haze. 



 I'm sure you're serious about this statement but if you want to over 

 fly your visibility you might want to consider getting IFR and 

 filing...flying a Cherokee at 120kts is one thing, flying an RV 10 

 into the same haze at 160kts is another...a hand held is wonder as 

 opposted to nothing but having better situational awareness equipment 

 is better and I'd think a requirement if you want to bust through haze 

 and smoke often.

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

Let me make a plug at this point for the efforts of your continued

membership with AOPA and the knowledge of Randy Kenagy and his group.

He was instrumental in trying to educate the bone-headed Oregon

bureaucrats on ADS-B a while back.



Your membership pays dividends which might not be felt if the Airlines

rewrite FAA user fees (regardless of politic) prevails.



If you are not a member, you might reconsider during this contentious

lobby effort.



John Cox - 



--

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 9:33 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

It's starting to make sense to me too!  Taking it a step further, does 

it make sense to even try to do a basic IFR setup in one's '10  before 

one has the rating and has had a chance to use it for awhile?



You raised the point of button pushing versus proficiency and currency.  

That's a big question for me. One one hand, I've seen our local package 

express/check cashing pilots train.  These folks can fly a failed engine 

twin with the standard 6 pack  thru an approach, miss, and hold and 

still talk about "I like keeping it a half needle to the right so my 

landing light will be on the centerline when I break out".  I just try 

to fly straight enough to avoid embarassing myself on the controllers radar.



On the other hand, I found use of my 2nd generation IFR cert'd Garmin 

300XL a total challenge.  Flying a standard GPS T approach with it is a 

piece of cake.  Flying an ADF or VOR overlay is more challenging.  

Trying to use it to aid in a typical vector-to-ILS situation can also be 

challenging.  With proficiency, I can use it to great advantage in these 

situations.  When a bit rusty, rust being a very real challenge to us 

non-pros, it was best to just fly vectors and use it exactly as an ADF 

or DME might be used.  But forget the moving map, programming interim 

points, or even trying to use it as a second VOR in those situations.  I 

learned that often less was more.  It's pretty crude technology compared 

to the modern systems.



Tim and others are convincing me that the *some* of the current stuff is 

actually easy  to use even when mixed with a bit of rust.  I need some 

hands-on to confirm that for me.  I'm sure some of the current stuff is 

more challenging.  We are certainly on the verge of having these systems 

actually make *all* aspects of IFR flight easier and safer for the non-pro.



But the point I'm getting to is this - properly equipping a used GA 

plane for IFR required IFR experience in the old 6 pack days.  Figuring 

out how you would combine existing equipment with a major upgrade, and 

coming out the back end with what you wanted took some experience.  

Perhaps properly equipping a homebuilt for IFR requires IFR experience 

too.  There are many choices, many alternatives, and many approaches in 

a constantly changing environment.  Would that make the prudent course 

to equip for VFR, get experience with plane, mission, and self., then 

upgrade as desired?  Inefficient?  maybe.  Some dollars may be wasted.  

But the bottom line may in fact benefit.  Just a thought.



I feel like I have some experience but frankly, I stand here lost in the 

face of all the choices.  My dream is an IFR cruiser that will put my 

'ol Maule to shame.  So I will try to take advantage of those that have 

gone before and end up with a Cheltonesque panel and as few unused 

redundancies as possible.  We'll see.



Bill "heading to the hangar for a long weekend of progress" Watson



John Jessen wrote:

[quote] 



 Yes!  



 I think that the point is well presented and well taken.  I've said to more

 than one person that "I don't get it" in terms of all the higher end panels.

 Tim, Deems and others have explained their rationale to me and I'm slowly

 getting it, but Bill finally put into words what I haven't been able to.  I

 love flying for the sake of flying, and to me this means VFR most of the

 time.  This is what has been in the back of my mind and I couldn't explain

 it.  Thanks, Bill !!



 I will get my IFR rating, because I honestly do believe it will make me a

 better pilot (and insurance companies might like me better) just as a tail

 wheel endorsement will also.  I have a float plane rating and that certainly

 has made me better (landing floats on glassy waters requires some precision

 that I wasn't used to before).  However, I love the ability to just fly.

 Get in and go.  Sure you want to have a flight plan and file it, and sure

 you'd like flight following, but there's something about keeping it simple

 that appeals to me.  



 So, my big challenge has been what to put in that works well in the assumed

 IFR future that I know I'll be involved in, but also doesn't bust the bank,

 and doesn't just sit there while I have fun looking out the window and down

 at my maps occasionally.  And will I keep current enough in real IMC that I

 could, honestly, safely, take advantage of the IFR system?  This is a big,

 big question.  I think for those who are already IFR trained and that's what

 they normally fly, it isn't such an issue to think in terms of the more

 advanced systems.  If they can afford it, it probably is a no brainer.  



 But there's the rub.  A high end system can make IFR simpler during the high

 workload, high risk scenarios that one will, if they fly IFR/IMC, eventually

 find.  That's when a current, but not super current, IFR pilot needs that

 electronic horsepower.  So, getting a glass panel 6-pack substitute, such as

 the AFS EFIS, coupled with a (for example) G430W and some type of MFD, may

 not be the safest thing for someone who spends most of his/her time flying

 VFR, with only the occasional IFR/IMC usage.  This is why I'm so interested

 in the combination of equipment that can bridge that gap between basic IFR

 and the high end systems.  You want minimal button pushing and mental

 gyrations in those situations that are the highest stress/workload

 situations.  It's easy to do enroute with almost any system.  It gets

 progressively more difficult for take offs, holdings, approaches, but all of

 these have been done for decades on steam gauges, so it's not impossible.

 It's just that with all the goodies out there, one wants to put together

 something that works well, doesn't bust the bank (for me and I bet many who

 are not commenting on the list), but can be effective.  This is why I've

 been begging for situational descriptions about how systems work well or

 not.  Tim is correct, this is so hard to discuss because everyone is working

 for such minimal examples, both in terms of situations and in terms of

 equipment.  However, the situations do exist, whether you've experienced

 them or read about them, and you know your system, so you can give at least

 some type of evaluation how it should work given the situation.  To some it

 might also be embarrassing to discuss what has happened and how their system

 responded, but we need to discuss these things in order for all of us to

 gain.  I want all of us to benefit, and really the only way is to get the

 stories out and discuss them.  



 Money will be the limiting factor for many of us.  Someone is going to have

 to give me oxygen when I plunk down my bucks for the panel.  And that's

 after I've been let out of the intensive care unit for the engine payment.

 However, when all is said and done, I'll be happy with whatever I have and

 practice with it as much as possible.  True enough.  But until then lots of

 decisions have to be made.  Bill has helped me understand what it was that I

 couldn't get put into words, that I couldn't get past a generalized feeling

 about.  That's the beauty of this list and of sharing thoughts.  Please!

 Those silent ones out there.  Jump in!  The water is fine.  



 John Jessen

   #328



  



 --

Vern(at)teclabsinc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

John,



Are you inferring the ADS-B project is dead here in Oregon? I thought it

was alive and well, behind schedule but still had a heart beat.



Vern Smith (#324)



Do not archive



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2878

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:49 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

Bill, while it's definitely an option to outfit minimally, as

Gary S. mentioned before, and flying for a while until you

know your mission or goals, I'm not sure if it would help.

Doing that would prevent you from getting hands-on experience

that would help you form your goals.



You're right that it can be very hard to know what all works well

together when upgrading or building, and to know what the end

result would be.  I don't think it's impossible though.

I basically couldn't be happier but it was bought with lots

of time and effort.  But I keep recommending over and over

that people actually just go FLY with some systems.  The technical

details as to what talks to what aren't that hard to find out,

once you narrow the field on equipment.  So the goal would

be to fly a few various layouts of brands you may be interested

in, see what you can learn, and then keep asking questions

until you pick a winner.  Then ask all the questions to ensure

it will work with everything else, and then, after all is said

and done, buy it.  I can guarantee that you'd have a clear

picture of all of my misc. ramblings if I took you for

a 1-2 hour flight.



There are hundreds of GRT's out there and loads of Cheltons

both certified and non-certified.  The G1000 makes a great

test-flight for a G900 buyer.  So getting time won't be

impossible, and it could be the most worthy $500 round-trip

airline ticket you could buy to go determine your choice.

I spent the money to fly the RV-10 at the factory for the

same reasons....to know I was buying the right kit...even

though I waited until on the wings.



For those who aren't instrument rated though, my recommendation

backs up a step....I really think you'd benefit from the rating

before you build the panel.  No insult intended, but you really

don't have a clue about IFR flight until you've been through

it with training and even some experience...where it's YOU

at the controls with the sweat on your brow.  Then, at that

point, you'll have enough of a concept to begin flying some

systems and seeing how well you can do, and if they do everything

you would hope for.



Tim






 	  Quote: 	
		   But the point I'm getting to is this - properly equipping a used GA 

 plane for IFR required IFR experience in the old 6 pack days.  Figuring 

 out how you would combine existing equipment with a major upgrade, and 

 coming out the back end with what you wanted took some experience.  

 Perhaps properly equipping a homebuilt for IFR requires IFR experience 

 too.  There are many choices, many alternatives, and many approaches in 

 a constantly changing environment.  Would that make the prudent course 

 to equip for VFR, get experience with plane, mission, and self., then 

 upgrade as desired?  Inefficient?  maybe.  Some dollars may be wasted.  

 But the bottom line may in fact benefit.  Just a thought.

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

The lengthy responses raise this question.  Could there be a minimalist

panel to get RV-10 builders to completion and a logical retrofit to the

final and ultimate goal of IFR capability?  Scott suggests even his

morphed Dual Chelton/Dual GRT could have benefits from additional

upgrades.



Disregarding the vast sea of wire changes between sensors and

Chelton/GRT are there any clear migration paths that you veterans see?

Should potential buyers have options at OSH '07 Shopping for a two step

build process or is it just "Jump in the Water is Deep"?



I conclude that the use of VANS steam gauges are now a journey down a

terminating road to minimalism - VFR Only.



You went Horizontal Scan, Scott went Vertical.... Tomato/Tomoto.



John C.



--

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

 	  Quote: 	
		   For those who aren't instrument rated though, my recommendation

 backs up a step....I really think you'd benefit from the rating

 before you build the panel.  No insult intended, but you really

 don't have a clue about IFR flight until you've been through

 it with training and even some experience...where it's YOU

 at the controls with the sweat on your brow.  Then, at that

 point, you'll have enough of a concept to begin flying some

 systems and seeing how well you can do, and if they do everything

 you would hope for.


	


Totally agree with this!



Just as "Friends don't let friends drive drunk",  I'd also suggest that "Friends should not let VFR friends build IFR panels."  Even after you have the rating, you really need time "in the system" to determine what is really important.  You see some panels supposedly built for IFR and you know the person who designed it dose not actually fly IFR.



I also agree with Scott's earlier comment that a glass panel ironically allows you more time looking out the window.  For the CIA, you spend much less time on the C and the I, leaving more time for the A and looking out the window.

William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

Oregon had the shot at being the #2 state for full -widespread

implementation.  It is now way back in the pack for implementation due

to a bone-headed Board of Directors at the Aviation level.



Urgency and validity were two words they did not possess when Randy made

a person presentation on the system at the state capital.  Thank

goodness Phil Boyer is also an Oregon pilot.  The system is whimpering

through the development process at being behind schedule and over

budget.  Much of the state which needed it worst is not under

consideration at this time.



You should all be pressing your state's for their spot on the pecking

order.



John Cox - Legislative Affairs / Oregon Pilots Assoc.



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

Inexperienced or non-IFR pilots should not be giving advise to the

masses in how to build panels or selection of avionics components.  I

whole-heartedly concur with your advise.



The masses need to know the quality of the source before giving it

consideration on something so vitally important.  Learn to clear out the

clutter quickly.



I will let the experienced IFR pilots chime in on Vertical Stacking

versus Horizontal Stacking and its importance being placed as high on

the panel as practical.  Not withholding the importance of a Back Seat

WSO with the armament screen between his/her legs.



Some panel layouts aid in resale, others lend themselves to being

scrapped and rebuilt for resale.  The eye is in the beholder

(purchaser). Till then rejoice in your choice and fly often/ fly safe.



John



--

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

So, do we have to take a test before we comment, or do we just submit a bio

with every comment?



Rene' Felker

N423CF

40322

801-721-6080

--

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

Well said William.  I think I'd totally agree even though I haven't seen 

any of those panels.



What's CIA?



William Curtis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Just as "Friends don't let friends drive drunk",  I'd also suggest that "Friends should not let VFR friends build IFR panels."  Even after you have the rating, you really need time "in the system" to determine what is really important.  You see some panels supposedly built for IFR and you know the person who designed it dose not actually fly IFR.



 I also agree with Scott's earlier comment that a glass panel ironically allows you more time looking out the window.  For the CIA, you spend much less time on the C and the I, leaving more time for the A and looking out the window.

 William

 http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 

   

 Totally agree with this!

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

Yes Tim, I think we are on the same page and basically agree....

-- Hands on experience is extremely valuable and is the key to making 

informed decisions

-- You can put together the right panel if you take advantage of some 

hands-on and all the other info sources

-- Putting an IFR panel together screams for first having a rating, some 

experience using it, plus some hands-on with current equipment



I feel like I have the IFR experience and so with some study and some 

hands-on with the current equipment, I'll be able to design the panel of 

my dreams and pocketbook.



At the same time, I'm suggesting that if I didn't have the previous IFR 

time, it might make sense to either get it, or put together a good VFR 

machine.  Fly it, confirm that I want IFR capability to expand my 

mission, then somehow get the rating, some experience, and then retrofit 

my panel.  And if  VFR in the '10 completely floats my boat which is 

highly likely in this super ship - I have what I want along with quite a 

few saved $$$ for fuel.



WANTED, any RV10 pilot (including Tim) who is passing thru the 

Carolinas.  Please stop by 8NC8 and say Hi!  I've got hangar space and a 

fuel tank... I top you off for a ride!



That's 8NC8, exactly 10nm mag north of RDU.  AKA, Lake Ridge Aero Park 

in Durham NC.



Bill "in the hangar building but still able to post" Watson



Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Bill, while it's definitely an option to outfit minimally, as

 Gary S. mentioned before, and flying for a while until you

 know your mission or goals, I'm not sure if it would help.

 Doing that would prevent you from getting hands-on experience

 that would help you form your goals.



 <snippety snip>



 For those who aren't instrument rated though, my recommendation

 backs up a step....I really think you'd benefit from the rating

 before you build the panel.  No insult intended, but you really

 don't have a clue about IFR flight until you've been through

 it with training and even some experience...where it's YOU

 at the controls with the sweat on your brow.  Then, at that

 point, you'll have enough of a concept to begin flying some

 systems and seeing how well you can do, and if they do everything

 you would hope for.



 Tim





 

> But the point I'm getting to is this - properly equipping a used GA 

> plane for IFR required IFR experience in the old 6 pack days.  

> Figuring out how you would combine existing equipment with a major 

> upgrade, and coming out the back end with what you wanted took some 

> experience.  Perhaps properly equipping a homebuilt for IFR requires 

> IFR experience too.  There are many choices, many alternatives, and 

> many approaches in a constantly changing environment.  Would that 

> make the prudent course to equip for VFR, get experience with plane, 

> mission, and self., then upgrade as desired?  Inefficient?  maybe.  

> Some dollars may be wasted.  But the bottom line may in fact 

> benefit.  Just a thought.

>

sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

On May 25, 2007, at 2:26 PM, William Curtis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Just as "Friends don't let friends drive drunk",  I'd also suggest  

 that "Friends should not let VFR friends build IFR panels."  Even  

 after you have the rating, you really need time "in the system" to  

 determine what is really important.  You see some panels supposedly  

 built for IFR and you know the person who designed it dose not  

 actually fly IFR.


	


What?  You're telling me that just because I don't have my ticket  

*yet* that I shouldn't build a panel for when I *do* get it?



My currently VFR skills will have an IFR panel including Chelton/Op +  

associated *stuff*.  The EFIS can be used for VFR too and I don't  

have to spend a lot of $$time$$ adding *stuff* when my IFR ticket is  

mailed.



Confused and maybe missing the point.



-Sean #40303

bhughes(at)qnsi.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

The great thing is we get to rebuild our panels as often as we like. 



Going home to work on my instrument rating using ASA IP PC based

software  



Bobby 

40116





--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2878

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

Sean,

Don't Panic...you'll be fine.  Considering you're already looking

at the higher end stuff, your biggest concern will be to try to

get some stick time behind them so you can analyze the layout you'd

want.  Also, tap into as much knowledge from guys like Stein as you

can....he's really got some good ideas if you let HIM sway you

into panel layouts as opposed to coming up with some screwy

layout and trying to make him build it.  He's a great resource.

That's not to say you wouldn't benefit from the rating...but

you've already got your sights set high.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Sean Stephens wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On May 25, 2007, at 2:26 PM, William Curtis wrote:

> Just as "Friends don't let friends drive drunk",  I'd also suggest 

> that "Friends should not let VFR friends build IFR panels."  Even 

> after you have the rating, you really need time "in the system" to 

> determine what is really important.  You see some panels supposedly 

> built for IFR and you know the person who designed it dose not 

> actually fly IFR.

 What?  You're telling me that just because I don't have my ticket *yet* 

 that I shouldn't build a panel for when I *do* get it?

 My currently VFR skills will have an IFR panel including Chelton/Op + 

 associated *stuff*.  The EFIS can be used for VFR too and I don't have 

 to spend a lot of $$time$$ adding *stuff* when my IFR ticket is mailed.

 Confused and maybe missing the point.

 -Sean #40303

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

This should be part of the test:-)

The basic tenant of IFR flying: Cross-check, Instrument interpretation and Aircraft control.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 



------

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel...how to decide - was GNS-430W

LOL



I don't really want to do a 2-phased panel.  I want to put in what I'm going

to be flying, VFR and IFR, for the foreseeable future.  I've been looking at

well equipped panels of Bonanzas and Mooney's of not too long ago, and

almost anything we come up with today can blow most of those away for better

situational awareness and ease of use.  It would be simple for me to do

something like this:  AFS 3500 with engine monitoring, G430W, SL30, GMA340

or comparable, GTX330, GMX200 with weather and traffic, TT Sourcer, some

back up gauges...not too shabby given what was available even a few years

ago.  However, is it the best bang for the buck; does it give me the most

utility for the money?  And, how does one define utility?  



I'm VFR rated with some IFR training under my belt, but not the ticket.  I

have no advice to give, other than if you have experience about what works

out there because you've used it, please help us learn.  



John J

  328 



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