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Dick Sipp
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 215 Location: Hope, MI
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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One of the best discussions we have had in some time.
I think the points made to honestly do the best job possible defining the
mission, have some means of accessing real time weather and, if IFR is to be
part of the mission, an autopilot, are great advice.
I've had a ball flying a 4 for 10 years. Great memories flying all over the
country, much of it in groups of other RVs in large formations. I will miss
the little fighter, aerobatics, and every thing else that makes the smaller
Van's airplanes so much fun. In 10 years there were relatively few
occassions when weather prevented a planned trip.
"Justification" for building a 10 was to provide a more practical traveling
airplane (dog, no reasonable baggage limit, more comfort for the
passenger(s) etc.) In short an airplane that the rest of the family could
enjoy and use. Van has just completed a very simple VFR only RV10 which
could be duplicated for less than the price of most LSAs and would provide a
tremendous value for the cost to build. Even restricted to VFR only it is a
terriffic airplane.
The other part of the "justification" in my mind at least is that I hope to
realize satisfaction and enjoyment flying a very capable airplane in the
real IFR environment in an airplane every bit as capable as those selling
for nearly half a million bucks for a fraction of that cost.
Once the decision to provide for the best possible IFR panel for the budget
is made and all the easy to get information is in hand, the hard choices of
which combination of components to choose have to be made. The choices are
expanding all most monthly, that's a good thing I think.
IMHO the challenges are finding the best combination of components that will
work well together with a minimum of pilot input. Short of seeing the
various combinations work in a real fligt environment (the best option) ask
the dealers how the various IFR scenarios would be accomplished with X Y & Z
combinations. John Jesssen's advice is great.
Just one example that took a awhile to understand was the significant
differences between the DigiFlight and Sorcerer autopilots. One has it's
own brain (Sorcerer) and can fly most any scenario on it's own while the
DigiFlight requires some other component to do the heavy thinking. Finally,
ask how the various sensors 480, 430, 530 Freeflight etc. would talk to the
flight display of choice. One could spend a lot of money on the top of the
line everything but if they don't talk to each other easily one might end up
with a great video game but not a vary practical user friendly IFR panel.
Tim's scenarios sound like all you have to do is issue a voice command:"fly
approach" and the airplane responds. His is a great state of the art system
but, he knows a thing or two about switchology and has read the book. Same
holds true I'm sure for any of the advanced systems, they require lot's of
study and practice to gain the full benefit of the available capability. In
corporate and airline training more days and sim time are spent on the
EFIS/flight management system than any other in the airplane.
The costs envolved in a modern safe IFR EFIS panel are probably the biggest
single expense catagory in the project, but if well planned and executed
should provide and equally valuable sense of acomplishment.
Now, let's see how do I get this new soft ware version out of the email and
into my EFIS?
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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com Guest
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:32 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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Richard,
Quote: | Just one example that took a awhile to understand was the significant
differences between the DigiFlight and Sorcerer autopilots. One has it's
own brain (Sorcerer) and can fly most any scenario on it's own while the
DigiFlight requires some other component to do the heavy thinking.
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Just a minor correction. Both the DigiFlight and the Sorcerer "have a brain." Each can fly the airplane on its own using the built in heading gyro and altitude sensor. What the Sorcerer adds is VHF/NAV capability. That is, it can fly a coupled VOR/LOC/ILS approach from any plain old VHF/NAV radio. The DigiFlight can do this only if you are flying an overlay approach on your IFR GPS and it is controlling the autopilot. Since most IFR GPS will provide a lateral overlay, and now the "W" GPS will also provide vertical guidance, the benefits of the Sorcerer over a DigiFlight II VSGV are not worth the extra $5K IMHO. Also if you truly want the DigiFlight to fly a VOR/LOC/ILS, not just the overlay, you could drive if from any HSI/EFIS with an ARINC 429 interface and GPSS-V.
The TruTrak RV-10 Autopilot is the Sorcerer with the VHF/NAV capability removed and a yaw dampener added.
Quote: | The costs envolved in a modern safe IFR EFIS panel are probably the biggest
single expense catagory in the project, but if well planned and executed
should provide and equally valuable sense of acomplishment.
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I've seen many use this term -- What exactly is an "IFR EFIS"? I know what an IFR GPS is as there are many TSOs and documents relating to it but for those that use this term, can you explain what makes one EFIS IFR and one not?
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co Guest
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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You are right for the most part. The Sorcerer, I believe, doesn't have an
internal heading source, while the Digiflight II does (which isn't worth
anything on the ones that I have flown). If you lose heading info from the
external GPS, the Sorcerer will let you decide a bank angle, whereas the DII
will let you select a Heading ("HDG" will display instead of "TRK" when it
gets the info from a GPS). The Sorcerer will let you select a target
altitude for climb or descent, and how you want to get there, indicated
airspeed for climb and distance for descent, or vertical speed for either.
This comes in very handy when being vectored by ATC and they say to maintain
at or above a certain altitude, you just punch it in and tell it a distance
and you are done (3 seconds). Vector change is just a rotation of the knob
on either. The Sorcerer will fly the NAV radio, whether VOR's or ILS. Do
all ILS approach airports have a precision GPS approach also? Does anything
except the GRT offer "artificial GPS approaches" on an ILS? This may not
matter to some, but there are a lot of pilots who still want to be able to
fly an actual ILS, although this is probably changing with the WAAS
approaches. When going missed approach, a toggle of the UP/DOWN switch will
automatically take you into a 500fpm climb while you figure out what to do
next. With separate buttons for everything, it is much easier to navigate
and get just what you want, when you want it.
The RV-10 AP is just the Sorcerer without the analog NAV functions, and both
the Sorcerer and the RV-10 AP have the Yaw Dampener as an option, although I
don't believe it is standard with the RV-10 AP, although they mentioned it
as such in the beginning. The AP-100 is the Sorcerer without the Altitude
Select or VNAV functions, but it includes the analog NAV functions.
The extra $4K for the Sorcerer is a chunk of change, but for many I think
the peace of mind of having almost all controls right on the unit instead of
having to tell it what to do through the GPS or EFIS is worth it. If you
don't want the altitude select but do want the analog NAV, go with the
AP-100 for $6,900. If you don't want the analog NAV and do want the
altitude select, go with the RV-10 AP. If you want both, go with the
Sorcerer. If you don't want either, then the DII VSG or VSGV are for you,
at $4,725 and $5,225 respectively.
Of course, they are all fantastic auto pilots. Monitor your trim, though,
unless you want to get into aerobatics.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2878
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 9:35 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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Great post William, and pretty much right on. The DFIIVSGV if you
couple it to many EFIS's is a very powerful autopilot. By itself
it's a very nice autopilot that will make your job easier. The
Sorcerer does include a bunch of great features that make it
good as a stand-alone AP, or an AP that would work with many
IFR GPS systems. Jesse's post just covered a bunch of that
stuff too.
I do have an answer for this question though:
"What exactly is an "IFR EFIS"? "
Indeed, EFIS is an acronym that leaves the definition pretty open,
but I can tell you exactly what makes an IFR EFIS. Look at
the Dynon, GRT, and many others...then compare it to the G900
and Chelton and I'm assuming the OP Tech. The Chelton system
uses an actual Jeppesen IFR database with all SIDs and STARs
and everything else in it, and I would think the G900 does too.
And, you can purchase a Jepp Subscription to it. Additionally,
Jepp is the only *certified* electronic database available for
IFR systems. So the fact that these EFIS contain all of the flight
planning features of most radios like the 430W/530W/480, and they
have all the necessary certified IFR databases, that would distinguish
them from the other. In fact, even if another system uses the FAA
data's database, it just isn't the same as it's not a certified
electronic database. A regular subscription update is a key too.
That's one question that's been gnawing at me about OP Tech too...and
perhaps Deems or someone can answer. For Chelton, right now you
buy a Jepp database from Chelton, but that's changing and soon
we'll be buying from Jepp. For OP Tech, I can't seem to find any
info on the database updates on Jepps site, or OP Tech's site,
and the same with the Chart functions for those systems. One
thing you can be assured is that there is a cost if it's Jepp.
But, not seeing a Jepp database gave me questions on what how
useful the system would be without a 430/530/480 if you can't
get Jepp data on a subscription. So yeah, there are IFR
EFIS systems, and there are non-IFR EFIS systems. That's
not at all to say you can't fly IFR with a non-IFR EFIS, but
to say you then need to ensure you have the other part
91.205 for IFR flight "navigation equipment appropriate to the
ground facilities to be used".
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
William Curtis wrote:
Quote: |
<wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>
Richard,
> Just one example that took a awhile to understand was the
> significant differences between the DigiFlight and Sorcerer
> autopilots. One has it's own brain (Sorcerer) and can fly most any
> scenario on it's own while the DigiFlight requires some other
> component to do the heavy thinking.
Just a minor correction. Both the DigiFlight and the Sorcerer "have
a brain." Each can fly the airplane on its own using the built in
heading gyro and altitude sensor. What the Sorcerer adds is VHF/NAV
capability. That is, it can fly a coupled VOR/LOC/ILS approach from
any plain old VHF/NAV radio. The DigiFlight can do this only if you
are flying an overlay approach on your IFR GPS and it is controlling
the autopilot. Since most IFR GPS will provide a lateral overlay,
and now the "W" GPS will also provide vertical guidance, the benefits
of the Sorcerer over a DigiFlight II VSGV are not worth the extra $5K
IMHO. Also if you truly want the DigiFlight to fly a VOR/LOC/ILS,
not just the overlay, you could drive if from any HSI/EFIS with an
ARINC 429 interface and GPSS-V.
The TruTrak RV-10 Autopilot is the Sorcerer with the VHF/NAV
capability removed and a yaw dampener added.
> The costs envolved in a modern safe IFR EFIS panel are probably the
> biggest single expense catagory in the project, but if well planned
> and executed should provide and equally valuable sense of
> acomplishment.
I've seen many use this term -- What exactly is an "IFR EFIS"? I
know what an IFR GPS is as there are many TSOs and documents relating
to it but for those that use this term, can you explain what makes
one EFIS IFR and one not?
William http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2878
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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2 comments on this post...
Jesse Saint wrote:
Quote: |
Do
all ILS approach airports have a precision GPS approach also? Does anything
except the GRT offer "artificial GPS approaches" on an ILS? This may not
matter to some, but there are a lot of pilots who still want to be able to
fly an actual ILS, although this is probably changing with the WAAS
approaches.
|
Well, there are GPS approaches that fly similar to an ILS (like WAAS
approaches), and there are GPS Overlays that EFIS's provide. They
are different yet similar. I can give an example of my system anyway:
The Chelton will fly an actual ILS approach, but the main guidance
without external inputs would come from a GPS overlay which they have
for every approach basically. So when you load the approach, you
have a HITS that appears and will bring you right down the boxes
for the approach. But, this is NOT driven by an ILS radio signal
coming from some ground antenna. What IS being driven by that
radio signal is your NAV receiver which will display a localizer
and glideslope on the EFIS that is displaying this data. Then,
your job is to verify that not only are you in the HITS boxes, but
also look RIGHT NEXT to your HITS on the screen and verify you're
actually on the glideslope and localizer. The funny thing is, if
they don't agree, you're supposed to follow the localizer/GS, not
the HITS, because the loc/GS is the official data on an ILS approach.
(Never seen them not match though as of yet) You would think the
GPS overlay would be the reliable one...but if you're flying an ILS
you need to follow ILS display indicators. Now, if you're flying
a GPS approach, then those 2 things should be identical and the
glideslope you're flying will be GPS based and it will always
match up with the HITS. So, indeed I can fly the overlays
and an actual ILS....and be doing it at the same time.
Quote: |
The extra $4K for the Sorcerer is a chunk of change, but for many I think
the peace of mind of having almost all controls right on the unit instead of
having to tell it what to do through the GPS or EFIS is worth it. If you
don't want the altitude select but do want the analog NAV, go with the
AP-100 for $6,900. If you don't want the analog NAV and do want the
altitude select, go with the RV-10 AP. If you want both, go with the
Sorcerer. If you don't want either, then the DII VSG or VSGV are for you,
at $4,725 and $5,225 respectively.
|
Regarding the value of the Sorcerer.... I can't knock it because it's
excellent. But, it really depends on exactly what other hardware you
have as to how much that extra almost doubling of price is worth. For
my system the added benefits are very very minimal. If your main
radio is a 430W/530W/480 but you lack the other equipment, you will
probably find that the $5,000 is well spent. It just depends.
In your example you mentioned things like putting in a target altitude
and climb rate and things like that. With the stuff I'm using I
can set a VSI bug for 800fpm climb and a target altitude of 10,000'
and it'll just do exactly that. In fact, departing IFR my practice
would be to punch in the targets and as soon as I lift off the runway
just engage GPSS/GSPV and from there on I just manage trim and power.
So I get all the function of the sorcerer with roughly 1/2 the
cash outlay. The only time it's a shortcoming is if I were completely
EFIS-less...then I could not have an autopilot flown ILS. I can
still fly a WAAS Lnav/Vnav or LPV approach on the 480, but I'd
have to hand-fly an ILS.
Also, for sorcerer users remember that you should set your altimeter
on that unit as well as any other altimeters before takeoff if you're
going to use it for altitude assignments.
Tim
do not archive
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Deems Davis
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 925
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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Re. Op Tech and Jepps
Yes they do use Jepps database, you have 2 options:
a. an annual subscription, or
b. 'pay as you go'
I'm not sure what the current pricing is, but from memory the annual
subscription was aprox $700 and the 'pay as you go' was $90 per update.
You download the updates from their website and place them on an SD card
and update the EFIS.
They just published a new website, and I can't find the current pricing,
perhaps they moved it to the download section which requires a password
and user id. (I haven't activated mine yet to preserve the '1 year'
trigger.)
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Tim Olson wrote:
Quote: | --> A regular subscription update is a key too.
That's one question that's been gnawing at me about OP Tech too...and
perhaps Deems or someone can answer. ............
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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com Guest
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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Jesse, Yup, clear -clear as mud:-)
Quote: | You are right for the most part. The Sorcerer, I believe, doesn't have an
internal heading source, while the Digiflight II does (which isn't worth
anything on the ones that I have flown). If you lose heading info from the
external GPS, the Sorcerer will let you decide a bank angle, whereas the DII
will let you select a Heading ("HDG" will display instead of "TRK" when it
gets the info from a GPS).
|
Well according to their web page, the Sorcerer has a " GPS-Slaved solid-state Directional Gyro" and the DigiFlights have "Built-in Digital Slaved Directional Gyro." I think these are worth a LOT as if all else in your panel fails, you still have the independent autopilot to keep the plane right side up. Why would you spend all that money for an autopilot that could not fly the plane without any external data source? In addition to course tracking, the GPS data for both provides precession correction to automatically keep the DG aligned with the compass heading--or more accurately the ground track. You do know the difference between Track and Heading don't you? Compass/DG reports heading, GPS reports track.
As far as the vertical speed selector, if you have a Garmin 400/500, the VNAV function works very well in providing vertical guidance (to the pilot or autopilot) so that you can "navigate" to a particular fix at a specified crossing altitude. If you have a navigator with VNAV function, then it is much better to do the function on it rather than on the autopilot. The vertical speed and VHF/NAV function of the Sorcerer are nice but if you have a Garmin 400/500 navigator, you already have those capabilities.
Quote: | The extra $4K for the Sorcerer is a chunk of change, but for many I think
the peace of mind of having almost all controls right on the unit instead of
having to tell it what to do through the GPS or EFIS is worth it.
|
Some pilots are EFIS centric while others are GPS navigator centric. For the EFIS centric, they would much prefer to do all the button pushing on the EFIS (flight plan, autopilot control, etc). For the GPS navigator centric, they prefer to do all their button pushing on the GPS navigator and only rely on the EFIS to display the various information. I haven't met any yet that are autopilot centric but if there are any out there, I guess they may benefit from what the Sorcerer offers. Since you have all these functions in most EFIS and GPS navigators, I still don't see the value.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
[quote] Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2878
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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Thanks, that's great news. So then we can add the OP officially
as an "IFR EFIS" per the email to William. I do think that
this feature (Jepp Database) really sets them apart in that
you really need that unless you're for sure installing another
device that has them already.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Deems Davis wrote:
Quote: |
Re. Op Tech and Jepps
Yes they do use Jepps database, you have 2 options:
a. an annual subscription, or
b. 'pay as you go'
I'm not sure what the current pricing is, but from memory the annual
subscription was aprox $700 and the 'pay as you go' was $90 per update.
You download the updates from their website and place them on an SD card
and update the EFIS.
They just published a new website, and I can't find the current pricing,
perhaps they moved it to the download section which requires a password
and user id. (I haven't activated mine yet to preserve the '1 year'
trigger.)
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Tim Olson wrote:
> --> A regular subscription update is a key too.
> That's one question that's been gnawing at me about OP Tech too...and
> perhaps Deems or someone can answer. ............
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 Posts: 1149 Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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Can you guys identify if you are IFR rated, VFR rated or Simulator
Wannabe Pilot's cause the danger level of the divergent advise has my
mind swimming.
For many reading of these divergent threads, it will take John Jessen
and a computer matrix to sort it all out into meaningful directions.
John C.
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brinker(at)suddenlink.net Guest
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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I was under the impression that GRT EFIS, since they have a good
relationship with Trutrak and have rewritten some of the control laws, would
drive the DII VSGV from an SL30 either VOR or ILS and could set ALT off of
the EFIS also. Of course pilot controls climb or decent rate. Also I
believe the GRT will fly a silulated ILS at a non ILS airport. I hope I've
understood correctly since that is what I bought but have'nt put to use yet.
Randy
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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com Guest
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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OK, so in this case you have defined an IFR EFIS as an EFIS with a Jepp database. I'm not sure I would agree with this definition. While it is clear what make one GPS VFR and another IFR, I submit that there is no clear definition for what makes an EFIS VFR or IFR. Certainly there is no FAA definition of an IFR EFIS which is why I started this discussion. VFR GPS and most handhelds also have internal Jepp databases and yet still they are not "IFR". Maybe "EFIS with IFR navigation" would be more appropriate, but still not totally correct if there was not at least a TSO 129a GPS included.
By your definition, the G900X/1000 would be considered an IFR EFIS since it includes an integral TSO 146a GPS with Jepp data. So would the certified Chelton FlightLogic EFIS.
But what about the G600 which does not? Should this NOT be considered an IFR EFIS since it does NOT have a built in Jepp database? And while it's does NOT meet your definition of an "IFR EFIS", why would Garmin get a blanket STC to install it in certified aircraft replacing the standard 6 pack and CDIs?
So either the G900X/1000 and the certified Chelton FlightLogic EFIS are the ONLY IFR EFIS or there is no such thing as an IFR EFIS.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
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Tim_Lewis(at)msm.umr.edu Guest
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:34 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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As best I can tell, the RV-10 AP doesn't include the yaw damper in the base price. According to <http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/autopilot2_2.htm> the RV-10 AP ($7250) has the yaw damper as an option (another $2500).
A weather/traffic/terrain/airspace display option for the lower-cost-than-perfect panel: Garmin 496 (handheld - around $2800) will display WxWorx from XM and also TIS info from the appropriate mode S Garmin transponder (GTX 330). To integrate the 496 with the Nav/Com/IFR GPS one can run a serial line from the IFR-certified GNS-430(W) or GNS-530(W) to the 496. This will automatically transfer the active flight plan and waypoint from the 430/530 to the 496.
The 496 is also a pretty good street navigator for use at your destination (includes audible turn guidance in automobile mode).
Tim
Quote: | --
Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
RV-6A N47TD -- 900 hrs
RV-10 #40059 under construction |
William Curtis wrote: [quote] Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> (wcurtis(at)nerv10.com)
Richard,
Quote: | Just one example that took a awhile to understand was the significant
differences between the DigiFlight and Sorcerer autopilots. One has it's
own brain (Sorcerer) and can fly most any scenario on it's own while the
DigiFlight requires some other component to do the heavy thinking.
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Just a minor correction. Both the DigiFlight and the Sorcerer "have a brain." Each can fly the airplane on its own using the built in heading gyro and altitude sensor. What the Sorcerer adds is VHF/NAV capability. That is, it can fly a coupled VOR/LOC/ILS approach from any plain old VHF/NAV radio. The DigiFlight can do this only if you are flying an overlay approach on your IFR GPS and it is controlling the autopilot. Since most IFR GPS will provide a lateral overlay, and now the "W" GPS will also provide vertical guidance, the benefits of the Sorcerer over a DigiFlight II VSGV are not worth the extra $5K IMHO. Also if you truly want the DigiFlight to fly a VOR/LOC/ILS, not just the overlay, you could drive if from any HSI/EFIS with an ARINC 429 interface and GPSS-V.
The TruTrak RV-10 Autopilot is the Sorcerer with the VHF/NAV capability removed and a yaw dampener added.
Quote: | The costs envolved in a modern safe IFR EFIS panel are probably the biggest
single expense catagory in the project, but if well planned and executed
should provide and equally valuable sense of acomplishment.
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I've seen many use this term -- What exactly is an "IFR EFIS"? I know what an IFR GPS is as there are many TSOs and documents relating to it but for those that use this term, can you explain what makes one EFIS IFR and one not?
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2878
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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William Curtis wrote:
Quote: |
<wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>
OK, so in this case you have defined an IFR EFIS as an EFIS with a
Jepp database. I'm not sure I would agree with this definition.
While it is clear what make one GPS VFR and another IFR, I submit
that there is no clear definition for what makes an EFIS VFR or IFR.
Certainly there is no FAA definition of an IFR EFIS which is why I
started this discussion. VFR GPS and most handhelds also have
internal Jepp databases and yet still they are not "IFR". Maybe
"EFIS with IFR navigation" would be more appropriate, but still not
totally correct if there was not at least a TSO 129a GPS included.
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I don't think the FAA defines even a 430/480/530 as "IFR". They
define standards that the units must perform to. The EFIS's
have the same functionality in some cases (providing the
attached hardware is there and correct). So then they can
be made to meet the standard. Also, re: the databases, those
handhelds have Jepp databases, but not Jepp approach databases,
and they don't conform to the specs by not being built in. So
that further separates them and makes the distinction. "EFIS
with IFR navigation" is close, but some of those boxes are
fully capable with the exception of the fact that their actual
receivers are external boxes....like a FreeFlight GPS.
The only difference is when you buy a 430/480/530 you're getting
the receiver in the same box as the database....but then again,
it "EFisn't" since it lacks the display of the rest of the stuff.
In the end, I really think trying to go further with the
definition would be futile.....given the above, it's probably
a good enough definition of "IFR EFIS" for practical value....and
it really isn't a slam on any other box...because it indeed
has an IFR Jepp Approach and Enroute database that sets it apart.
The other PANELS using other EFIS's can be plenty "IFR", but
they get there by having the right attached equipment.
Quote: | By your definition, the G900X/1000 would be considered an IFR EFIS
since it includes an integral TSO 146a GPS with Jepp data. So would
the certified Chelton FlightLogic EFIS. But what about the G600 which
does not? Should this NOT be considered an IFR EFIS since it does
NOT have a built in Jepp database?
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Yeah, it gets grey....acknowledged....but you're right, I would
not call that an IFR EFIS. It's an EFIS display capable of IFR
flight when connected to an IFR database source. It would require
additional hardware that includes the database for IFR flight.
And while it's does NOT meet your
Quote: | definition of an "IFR EFIS", why would Garmin get a blanket STC to
install it in certified aircraft replacing the standard 6 pack and
CDIs?
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Because it's an a certifiable "6-pack replacement" (on steroids)...
just like most of the other EFIS systems would be considered...because
you still need that IFR database equipped other box to do the heavy
work of flying the approach. Again, it's NOT saying that it's a
system you can't fly IFR with...it just can't do it with it's own
"brain".
Quote: |
So either the G900X/1000 and the certified Chelton FlightLogic EFIS
are the ONLY IFR EFIS or there is no such thing as an IFR EFIS.
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No, according to Deems, with the database internal, it's also an
"IFR EFIS" by that definition. That does not mean anything other
than it has the capability within itself. And you're right, as
far as that goes, that makes the Avidyne system the same thing
if it requires a 430/530 to give it the database.
Being an "IFR EFIS" isn't some sort of status symbol that allows you
to slam others....it's just indicative of where you place the
navigation and flight planning brains of the system....as far as
I'm concerned.
Tim
[quote] William http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
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jjessen
Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 285 Location: OR
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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Is Avidyne selling it's system to experimental types, now? I thought I saw
something about this.
John J
328
do not archive
= = =
No, according to Deems, with the database internal, it's also an "IFR EFIS"
by that definition. That does not mean anything other than it has the
capability within itself. And you're right, as far as that goes, that makes
the Avidyne system the same thing if it requires a 430/530 to give it the
database.
Being an "IFR EFIS" isn't some sort of status symbol that allows you to slam
others....it's just indicative of where you place the navigation and flight
planning brains of the system....as far as I'm concerned.
Tim
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 Posts: 1149 Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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There is strong value in all builders knowing the closest flying RV-10
and getting hands on time by buying their owner's fuel and tagging along
when possible.
Each builder has invested a big part of their effort into panel design
and function. Know the reasons why, weigh them carefully, apply how it
you will fly your aircraft, then ask for the opinion of respected
individuals. Tim's post of Stein is not a bad way to start (a few of
his panels have been quite Hot a few not - he builds to owner's
specifications). Tim's website should be read repeatedly until you can
discount or adopt every hard thought-out feature. If you can't
understand it you are not ready to make the final decision. Bring your
decision to OSH '07 and put it to the Vendor Acid Test.
I would hope that scores of builders are patiently waiting for Deems OP
Technologies to fly and wish that Dexter would pipe in on this important
issue.
Short of graphic schemes and paint color(s) the panel is far more
builder specific (and Important) than an IO-540D4A5 rebuilder or
Hartzell/MT blade choice.
John C
600
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jump2(at)sbcglobal.net Guest
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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Her is my Idea of a panel. You'll see Srikefinder for legal weather but there will be a garmin 496 also on board until ADSB or some other form comes in.
Fully intergrated 8.4 and an extra 1201 wass approved GPS.
We're fitting it in now.
Patrick Thyssen 257
Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis
Re. Op Tech and Jepps
Yes they do use Jepps database, you have 2 options:
a. an annual subscription, or
b. 'pay as you go'
I'm not sure what the current pricing is, but from memory the annual
subscription was aprox $700 and the 'pay as you go' was $90 per update.
You download the updates from their website and place them on an SD card
and update the
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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com Guest
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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Patrick,
What is "legal weather?"
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
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jump2(at)sbcglobal.net Guest
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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I will correct myself as per 135 or 121 far, you have to have in the case of known or forecast thunderstorn weather you have to have on board a airborn radar or a lighting detector (wx500,strikefinder etc.). That means real time not 15 minutes old weather. And no this is not 135 but I have enough experience to know not to just rely on ground base systems if I want to go.
patrick thyssen
William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis"
Patrick,
What is "legal weather?"
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com Guest
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: The Perfect Panel - The Perfect airplane |
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Patrick,
Thanks for the clarification. That's a nice looking panel you have there. I've been meaning to reply to the other thread where folks are confusing XM weather as airborne radar. They should understand the lag time (2 to 15 minutes) involved with XM weather so as NOT to use it to try to closely navigate around weather cells.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
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