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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:14 pm Post subject: English/American

Hi All,

  

 some people at MV and several on this list have  commiserated with me about the restrictions which are placed on us in the UK and  the hoops i am having to jump through to get my plane back in the   air.

 As it happens there is an interview witgh Francis  Donaldson, the Chied Engineer of the PFA in this months Flyer whic explains the  difference in approach. Also a couple of general points.Also bear in mind that  we are talking general homebuilts here, not just ultralights.

  

 And I quote

  

 16 years ago the PFA had 800 a/c on the books for  which they issued annual permits. Now there are 2,200 Permit a/c which are  certificated annually and more than  100 new projects building every  year.

  

 Question.

 You have refused several types a Permit although  they are common in the USA. Why is that?

  

 Answer.

 There is a huge difference between the USA and the  UK. Over there the builder takes much more responsibility for the a/c even after  it is sold. The reason why some homebuilts are broken up rather than sold  complete by the builder.

 In the UK the PFA takes that liabilty off the  builders shoulders. Because of this I have to consider not just the builder, who  may be quite capable of dealing with some aspects of the handling- but also all  of those who may own the a/c. after him.

  

 How about accepting an a/c by the PFA.

  

 When I took over I found that several types had  been approved apparently on the basis of people taking glowing reports of  foreighn a/c as being accurate. People took a lot of trouble getting these  planes approved by the PFA only to find that ther handling was  diabolical.

 There is now an independent check  at the very  start of the process to stop every one wasting their time and money on a  lemon.

  

 End.

  

 Incidentally `deregulation` is now a fact over  here. This means thjat an ultralight weighing less than 115kg empty, with a  single seat and a wing loading of less than 10kg per sq metre. This it is hoped  will rejuvenate manufacturers or importers to bring in types from abroad.   There are less hurdles as there is no lengthy airworthiness process to go  through.  Safety will be the resposibility of the importer..  This  certainly means that the Firefly will now become a front runner.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:20 am Post subject: English/American

Pat,



Thanks for the very helpful info on the x-Atlantic differences. It 

would be very interesting to see which of the popular-in-the-USA kit 

planes  the PFA has pronounced "diabolical" in handling.  Your PFA 

could function as a "canary in the mine" for the rest of the world if 

this information is made public. I guess the barristers there have to 

find deep pockets in other areas rather than go after us pilots and 

aircraft owners who everyone knows are all richer than the Bin Laden 

family.



Also interesting to learn that the UK now has an Ultralight rule that 

is similar (at least in weight) to the USA's FAA Part 103 regulation. 

Does the UK allow for UL un-certificated pilots and the UL vehicles to 

go without annual condition inspection?



Thom in Buffalo

do not archive

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_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: English/American

Does the UK allow for UL un-certificated pilots and the UL vehicles to

go without annual condition inspection?>>



Hi Thom,

There is no such thing as an un-certificated pilot here. A Pilots licence 

normally  allows flying a plane up to a certain weight. Below the Ultralight 

weight limit of 450 k there are certain allowances and a microlight licence 

will not entitle piloting a GA machine. Most of the requirements are the 

same as a normal PPL and you will have to do Air Law, Met. Navigation etc in 

the same way but the exam is to a slightly lower level than a PPL



The full rules  for the deregulated ultralight don`t seem to have been made 

public yet, or at least I haven`t read them.  The authorities announced 3 

weeks ago that SSDR (Single Seat Deregulation) would come into force at `the 

end of the year.`

Due to the efforts of the BMAA (British Microlight Assoc) this has been 

pushed forward to NOW. This probably means thjat the Kolb Firefly is the 

only one which is already on the market here through Mike Moulai , Silver 

Fern Microlights, the distributor for kolb in UK and Europe.. This was 

already on display by Mike at our biggest indoor flying Expo last December. 

Cosmik Aviation are apparently talking about the 3 axis  Quicksilver  MX 

Sport.



HOT NEWS.  I have read to the end of the article and apparently full rules 

are on the BMAA website.Google will find it. I have not checked but I would 

be surprised if we were to start having unlicensed pilots and/or planes in 

our skies.



There is however talk of an Experimental Category similar to yours being set 

up. Don`t hold your breath, although I must confess to being amazed that we 

have come so far so quickly. This to a large extent has come about in an 

effort to have common rules throughout Europe. Each countries manufacturers 

have until now had to get a plane through its own countries hoops and then 

all the other countries as well. Although our Section `S` is well regarded 

as a bench mark.  We are not there yet but the rules are sort of converging 

so that a manufacturer can build a machine which will be accepted throughout 

Europe. That really opens up the market.



I didn`t mention in my post the angst which our PFA Chief Engineer had to go 

through as he explained to a nice old chap, over tea and cucumber sandwiches 

naturally, that the plane on which he had lavished hundreds of hours of work 

and a pile of money was a flying coffin fit only for the scrap heap. Thats 

when he earns his money.



The regs we have are a pain in the  butt but a first time builder can be 

confident that with an approved kit, the building of which has been checked 

by (Volunteer, unpaid) inspectors and on which the test flying has been 

properly conducted  will not bite him. It will not vicously drop a wing when 

stalled. The engine will not die from fuel starvation during a full throttle 

climb out. In fact if he has trouble it is probably the pilot , not the 

plane. More importantly perhaps the guy with little experience who buys it 

second or third hand can be equally confident that basically the design and 

build is sound and he can sell it without the possibility of being sued if 

things go wrong. Woe betide him however if he has introduced an un approved 

mod, changed engines for instance. He will be in deep doo doo. with no 

insurance as the least of his worries.



Cheers



Pat

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Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:20 am Post subject: English/American

Pat,



        Pulleeze, enough is enough!  The US and UK may have different 

airworthiness standards for ultralights but, judging from the British and 

American UL publications, there is not that big a difference in the 

aircraft.  You make it sound as if most US ultralights wouldn't make it past 

the oh-so-stringent UK inspections.  While your regs may be different, they 

sound like more of a big pain than having to do with safety.  I'd take our 

system over yours any day.  Much more simple, and a lot more freedom (as you 

recently experienced at MV).

---

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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:18 am Post subject: English/American

I'm not the only one here who finds your continued 'US-bashing' offensive>>



Hi Ed,



I think you must suffer from an exceptionaly thin skin. And so does at least 

one other listee who has written to me this morning apologising to me for 

the rudeness of his fellow American.



At no time did I intentionally `US Bash`.  and I think that I have always 

made it clear that I appreciate that we just approach things in a different 

way.

Sure I would love to be able to load my Xtra up in the way John Hauk loads 

his or put a lovely streamlined cowl over the engine, but a few weeks ago 

the list was discussing cutting up planes instead of taking the risk of a 

law suit if the plane was sold and the buyer came to grief. Thats the other 

side of the `freedom ` coin. I have never argued about which is best. I just 

accept the fact.

2 people at MV said they liked my posts as they gave a different perpective. 

And the sympathetic posts which came in when I stupidly crunched my plane 

were magnificent..



Still you can`t please everyone and it would seem that the judicious use of 

your `delete` key would save a lot of bad temper.

 ..

If no one is interested in the way things are done or what people are doing 

outside the USA, thats fine. Just let me know and I will stop commenting.



I am always interested in the way things are done in other countries. In 

other countries than the USA too,( they do exist you know) and I assumed 

that othere were interested too. If I am wrong, well OK



Cheers



PAT

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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:56 am Post subject: Re: English/American

Pat,



I appreciate your response to my question and learning about the differences in rules among the various countries, not just US and UK. Continuing this discussion of differences is beneficial and educational. I don't see anyone bashing anyone else, merely informing the group of differences. 



Speaking of which, did you know that one can get a private or even commercial pilot's certificate in the US even if he/she is stone deaf? There is a restriction on the medical certificate that states something to the effect that it is valid only where two-way radio use is not required. Since well over 90% of the airports in the US are un-towered, this is not that big a restriction. I used to be totally deaf but have bi-lateral cochlear implants now and can use the radio well these days. Wonderful technology invented and develped by the Aussies.



FYI   http://www.deafpilots.com/



Thom in Buffalo

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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:29 am Post subject: English/American

<<one can get a private or even commercial pilot's certificate in the US 

even if he/she is stone deaf>>



Hi Thom,



a point I had never considered. I don`t know if its the same here. Your way 

sounds too much of a common sense approach for us.



Its a problem I may have to face. Changes of pressure though scuba diving, 

the same with gliding and ul flying plus playing drums in a jazz band for a 

good many years have certainly taken its toll on my hearing according to 

Wendy.. WHAT DID YOU SAY DEAR?



I am surprised about the non controlled airfields proportion in the States. 

We have this image that everything in the States is  superbly oganised and 

efficient not like the bumbling, amateur English. I think most places even 

pretending to be an airfield here have someone on the ground answering radio 

calls. Probably not actually Controlling anything but giving landing info. 

Plenty of farm strips with just PPR only  Of course we have only just 

started the Unicom system which you have had for years.



Cheers



Pat

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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: English/American

<< Sorry to the List in general, but I'm not the only one here who finds

your continued 'US-bashing' offensive.  Our two countries have different

ways to meet aircraft safety requirements ... Ed in JXN >>



I did not interpret Pat's comparison of UK versus US aircraft cert rules

as "US-Bashing."  No where once did Pat suggest that their system in

England is better than the way aircraft are certified in the United

States.



It was interesting to me to learn the differences, and makes me continue

to appreciate the system (even with all its imperfections) and freedoms

we have here in America when it comes to building & flying our

homebuilts.



Dennis Kirby

Mark-III, 912ul, in 

Cedar Crest, NM

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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: English/American

Not trying to disagree with anyone, or make things any worse, but from 

what I saw (read), Pat

simply pointed out the "differences between the US and Great Brittain.  I 

didn't get the feeling he was trying to show us up at all.   In fact, if 

anything, I get the impression he felt we here in the US have it a little 

easier than they do in GB.

  Thanks for the patriotism, Ed, but I wasn't left with the impression that 

Pat was "disrespecting"

us.                                           Mike in SW Utah



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