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VE3LVO(at)rac.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

From: Fergus Kyle 

 Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2007 10 35

 To: EUROPALIST

 Subject: Woodcomp propeller controls  

  

   

Cheers,  

            I am in the process of installing the subject item, an SR3000/3 Constant Speed unit. There are several control modules involved in the installation and I am trying to rationalise the siting of these on a standard mono instrument panel – somewhat cramped and needing careful planning.  

            While I have read the manual several times, I find it hard to calculate how often (and therefore where) each item should be used.  

            If you are familiar with the use of a 3000 or similar device, would you consider advising me where you would put each module to permit ease and frequency of use? This comprises CS RPM control selector, CS/manual switch, pitch indicator and a  guarded Reverse pitch switch – yes, reverse. I know, I know.  

Happy landings  

Ferg  

Classic mono 914  

   

              

              

        [quote][b]

Dave Miller

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

Ferg, 

 

For what it is worth, mine stays in the constant speed mode, so I would position the manual/auto switch where ever there is room, you probably will not normally need to use it. 

I don't have a pitch indicator, but would not think this needs to be in a prominent position. 

The RPM control selector needs to be in sight and easily accessible. 

The reverse switch is probably best located in the baggage compartment ! 

 

 

Dave 

 

 

    "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> 

Sent by: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com 

05/17/2007 08:26 AM 

Please respond to europa-list 

          

        To:        "EUROPALIST" <europa-list(at)matronics.com> 

        cc:         

        Subject:        FW: Woodcomp propeller controls 

 

 

  

   

 

 

From: Fergus Kyle 

 Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2007 10 35

 To: EUROPALIST

 Subject: Woodcomp propeller controls 

  

Cheers, 

            I am in the process of installing the subject item, an SR3000/3 Constant Speed unit. There are several control modules involved in the installation and I am trying to rationalise the siting of these on a standard mono instrument panel – somewhat cramped and needing careful planning. 

            While I have read the manual several times, I find it hard to calculate how often (and therefore where) each item should be used. 

            If you are familiar with the use of a 3000 or similar device, would you consider advising me where you would put each module to permit ease and frequency of use? This comprises CS RPM control selector, CS/manual switch, pitch indicator and a  guarded Reverse pitch switch – yes, reverse. I know, I know. 

Happy landings 

Ferg 

Classic mono 914 

  

             

             

[b]

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 5:26 am Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

Ferg,



I had all that installed last year (except reverse sw). I had space left on 

the right side of my panel for the two round instruments, which require 

non-standard size cutouts, and mounted circuit breaker and on/off toggle 

switch into the same adapter plate (my cutouts are all 3 1/8") of one of the 

instruments. The control box I mounted against the inside of the firewall. 

Feathering was supposed to be automatic. Since everything came completely 

prewired the installation was fairly easy except for having to reduce my 

cutouts to their sizes. You also need a place for the mp gauge.



The manual mode checked out okay on the ground, but nothing worked correctly 

in the air. I had a very frustrating summer trying to get it to work. 

Acomplete replacement (incl. brush box) simply presented a different set of 

problems. The automatic feathering never worked, but this could have been 

wired to a manual switch. Factory support was pretty hopeless and I finally 

gave up and sent it all back for a full refund. They then offered me their 

new SINGLE instrument, The CS1, which takes the rpm directly from the 

engine, instead of the propeller, but I had had enough of their lack of 

support. I am just now installing the single instrument CSC1-G from Smart 

Avionics, as others have done. The Smart box also has the manifold pressure 

integrated and displayed on their instrument, so now there is only one small 

instrument instead of 3.



I hope that my experience was unique and that your boxes will function 

perfectly. I just also felt that the whole design was a cloodge, and had 

evolved from the manual mode. Their new instrument would be worth looking 

at, but let someone else be the guinea pig.



Their propeller and hub are absolutely first class. They even supplied me 

with a standard XS 10 inch size spinner , and the whole propeller was 

supplied fully assembled and ready to bolt on.



Karl



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: "EUROPALIST" <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: FW: Woodcomp propeller controls

Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 08:26:39 -0400



   _____



From: Fergus Kyle

Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2007 10 35

To: EUROPALIST

Subject: Woodcomp propeller controls



Cheers,



             I am in the process of installing the subject item, an 

SR3000/3

Constant Speed unit. There are several control modules involved in the

installation and I am trying to rationalise the siting of these on a

standard mono instrument panel - somewhat cramped and needing careful

planning.



             While I have read the manual several times, I find it hard to

calculate how often (and therefore where) each item should be used.



             If you are familiar with the use of a 3000 or similar device,

would you consider advising me where you would put each module to permit

ease and frequency of use? This comprises CS RPM control selector, 

CS/manual

switch, pitch indicator and a  guarded Reverse pitch switch - yes, reverse.

I know, I know.



Happy landings



Ferg



Classic mono 914




	


_________________________________________________________________

Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. 

https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

Hi Karl



Your experience was unfortunately not unique.  My friend has just had a very

similar 12 month experience and has also given up and is installing the

Smart Avionics controller.



Pete



--

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

Hi Ferg,



Also a SR3000 with reverse.

But i went for the CSC1-G, and while still on the ground, test running the  

engine, everything seems to

work great. Have not reversed with a running engine though. I used the  

Woodcomp label and security lock for the switch, replaced the switch with  

a 3 pole on-off on, which cuts a relay, taking the cs controller off line  

and power to reverse and unreverse. If you are interested a (bad) hand  

drawn circuit diagram, i can send it to you. On the defensive side i would  

like to add: I will be landing on ice, reverse might come in handy.



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen



-- 

workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane

http://www.europaowners.org/kit600

ghiggins(at)nsw.chariot.n
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

Does anyone have any info or experience in using the reverse thrust in 

anger?  My experience of being unable to stop on rollout,( aborted takeoff) 

and hitting that cane drain, has been relived many times. It is not a 

pleasant experience( broken back, broken aircraft). I have often wondered if 

reverse thrust prop would have been more effective than the single mono 

wheel brake on dew laden grass, lightly loaded aircraft.

I would imagine the aerodynamics involved would be rather complex.

  Graham Higgins in Oz, still rebuilding.

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 10:23 pm Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

Hi Graham,

Very sorry to hear of your mishap, particularly your back injury and I hope 

you have now recovered and will soon be back in the air.

I have a mono with a Woodcomp SR 3000/3 with reverse and I use it every time 

I land at my strip instead of using the brake (obstacles on both 

approaches).  It is extremely effective for stopping, but whether I could 

activate it quickly enough for an abortive take-off (in a panic), is an 

unknown.  For safety reasons there are a sequence of actions before reverse 

can be activated; U/C down, mode switch changed, throttle closed, guard 

lifted and reverse switch activated.  All but the last two can be done in 

preparation for landing.

Of course the U/C will already be down and no doubt you will close the 

throttle instinctively when you decide to abort, so if you can do the 

others, the prop will go into reverse in under two seconds.  If you are 

thinking clearly and have quick reactions, I imagine it is do-able.

The mono is extra wobbly on tarmac (because of reduced rudder authority), 

but most hard runways are long enough anyway.  On grass it is fine, once the 

roll-out has been established.  It is also very effective for losing height 

in the air (VSI off the clock), but Woodcomp forbid this (no doubt because 

of litigation) and the PFA exclude it on the "Limitations" placard.  I have 

never had the courage to try a landing, in case there is insufficient energy 

for the round-out, but it might be OK if 80 knots is maintained all the way 

down the glide path.  Apparently, C 130s can land in reverse for extremely 

short landings; perhaps Nigel can comment on this.

Regards,

William



---

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 11:26 pm Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

Hi William,



While building after your example drawing:

For reason of simplicity, exactly in a high stress situation (most of my landings will be )managed to do away with the change-mode switch. The 3-pole reverse-unreverse switch now operates a relay, that changes the mode. This latched and warning labeled switch is IMHO security enough against accidental operation. 

Do you have to wait for full reverse before opening the throttle? Should i think about an indicator light that indicates the reverse end stop reached?



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 2:09 am Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

Hi Jos,

Yes, you do have to wait and no, I don't think you need an indicator light, 

because the change to reverse is continuous and so quick, but it is 

important not to be able to select reverse, or "unreverse" with the throttle 

open, because when it goes through zero pitch, it will over-speed the 

engine.  A micro switch on the throttle box to break the circuit will do the 

job.

Best wishes,

William

---

VE3LVO(at)rac.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

William/Jos:

	I have discovered (not for the first time - but again...) that being

familiar with operating these types of device is far from installing them!

I appreciate the chat regarding their relative positions - something which

will get more thought after your messages.

Where would you put the 'reverse/unreverse'? - near the throttle or up the

instrument board? - I was hoping to provide the light indicating full

reverse at the top of the panel near the line of sight ahead so as to react

more quickly to reverse being ready. I thought to join 'reverse ready', 'oil

pressure drop', 'angle-of-attack' led and 'over/under-volt' and 'fuel

pressure drop'lamps up high for more conspicuous notice and reaction.

Thoughts?

Cheers, Ferg

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

Hi Ferg,

The rev/unrev with blocking flap sits next to the cs controller. Thats in the lower part of the avionics panel. There are some pictures at http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 : instrument panel. I do not have have rev indicator light.



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 2:29 am Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

Ferg,

I have the reverse switch near the throttle on the tunnel top and I have a 

bright LED at the top of the panel to warn when the reverse "master switch" 

is selected, which arms the guarded reverse switch.

Regards,

William



---

Bill & Sue

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Malvern, Worcs. UK (Defford, Croft Farm)

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls

The recent discussion on propellers has been really illuminating â€“but  inevitably  I now realise how little I know about propellers in general. 

I had in mind the Woodcomp for our trigear  -but inevitably there now seem to be lots of other props each offering various advantages but no clear winner.

In general terms, could anyone explain the benefits of a three-blade prop over a two blade, and whether these outweigh the weight penalty?

And, while Iâ€™m seeking enlightenment, how do the benefits of electric CS props compare with the hydraulic variety?



Bill 

Trigear 465



P.S.



I ordered something from Europa by phone one lunchtime last week and was opening the package over breakfast the following morning.  Credit due for excellent service methinks!

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

Bill

A three blade prop will balance both mass and yaw forces. A two blade 

won't. There will always be a yawing vibration with a 2 blade whenever 

there is significant angle of attack. (Downgoing blade sees a different 

AoA to Upgoing one)

End result is that in general 3 bladers are smoother than 2 blades.

imho electric is cheaoer than hydraulic but not as fast so electric is 

no good for aerobatics.

Graham

Bill &amp; Sue wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   In general terms, could anyone explain the benefits of a three-blade prop over a two blade, and whether these outweigh the weight penalty?

 And, while Iâ€™m seeking enlightenment, how do the benefits of electric CS props compare with the hydraulic variety?

 

 Bill

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

Bill,

I have the SR3000/2W 2-blade with narrow ends and wide root with a lot of 

twist. It is now running very smoothly, although I had a lot of problems 

initially with vibration, which was due to carbs not well balanced. A 

3-blade seems to cancel out a lot of uneven combustion. The instrumentation 

was hopeless and I am now installing the Mark Burton controller.

Advantages are: less weight, cheaper, better visibility when feathered for 

gliding, less drag, and it comes to you fully assembled ready to bolt on.

There are supposed to be other advantages like high altitude performance, 

but have not done any serious testing yet.

Apparently Kim Prout has the best performing prop ? With a weight of 13 1/2 

pounds that is half the weight of most cs props.

If you are building a mono, then my prop would be too long for you,

Karl

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls

Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 00:56:32 +0100

<grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>

Bill

A three blade prop will balance both mass and yaw forces. A two blade 

won't. There will always be a yawing vibration with a 2 blade whenever 

there is significant angle of attack. (Downgoing blade sees a different AoA 

to Upgoing one)

End result is that in general 3 bladers are smoother than 2 blades.

imho electric is cheaoer than hydraulic but not as fast so electric is no 

good for aerobatics.

Graham

Bill &amp; Sue wrote:

>

><Billandsue(at)billbell.co.uk>

>In general terms, could anyone explain the benefits of a three-blade prop 

>over a two blade, and whether these outweigh the weight penalty?

>And, while Iâ€™m seeking enlightenment, how do the benefits of electric CS 

>props compare with the hydraulic variety?

>

>Bill

_________________________________________________________________

The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:16 am Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

As you may know I have been researching VP/ CS propellers but it is always 

difficult to come to a definitive conclusion without speaking to those who 

have actually used the various propellers.



William Mills was kind enough to share his experience with me before his 

tragic departure from this life.



"William, though I never had the pleasure of meeting you in person, your 

departure leaves a hole in my life and reminds me of the bond that we who 

take to the skies share. You are and will be sadly missed."



William had used both an Arplast and a Woodcomp propeller so was able to 

give a useful comparison. This is what he said



Carl,

I had an Arplast PV50 as my first VP prop.  I am afraid to say the blades 

are the only good aspect of the prop.  The hub mechanism is very poor which 

resulted in different pitch angles between the blades at different settings, 

which cause vibration.  The electronic control was very unreliable and 

failed in fully coarse, the motor is 6 volts operated by 12 volts to get 

enough power, so they fail often and the after sales service is very poor. 

That is my experience.

I now have a Woodcomp SR 3000/3 controlled by a Smart Avionics Constant 

Speed Controller, which I find is an excellent combination.  It is slightly 

cheaper than the Arplast and half the price of the Airmaster.  It also comes 

fully assembled complete with a spinner, fully balanced and ready to bolt 

on.  May I suggest you take a good look at that before you make up your 

mind.

Best wishes,

William



AND

I had a 912 with Warp Drive, then replaced it with an Arplast PV50, then 

threw away their control and fitted a Smart Avionics CSC.  The PV50 improved 

my take-off performance a great deal.  When I had done about 800 hours, I 

fitted a 912s and a Woodcomp 2000/3 with a Smart Avionics CSC.  I have now 

changed the 2000 for their latest SR 3000/3 with reverse thrust and I find 

this an excellent combination.



Best wishes,

William



I was very interested in the Whirlwind propeller but unfortunately it seems 

that (at least in the UK) that converting an existing engine to accept the 

hydraulic governor isnt possible (as Skydrive wont supply the necessary 

parts). It is possible to purchase a new engine with the governor shaft 

fitted but this adds thousands of pounds to the cost (not including the cost 

of the governor itself). Additionally the PFA would be unlikely to agree to 

the increased propeller diameter (of the Whirlwind) at least for the 

monowheel. The Trigear may be a different proposition.



My personal view at present is as follows:



The Airmaster is the best engineered solution (and the CS controller is a 

brilliant bit of kit) however there is a question mark over the efficiency/ 

design of the Warp drive blades.



The Arplast has in the past been somewhat unreliable and in the early days 

the VP electric motor was underpowered resulting in the need to reduce 

engine power to change the propeller pitch. This issue may have been 

resolved but Williams comments above are worrying. Can anyone comment on how 

reliable/ suitable the Arplast propeller is in 2007?



The Woodcomp at present seems to be the best of the bunch coupled to the 

Smart Avionics CS controller.



Carl Pattinson

G-LABS



---

Mark Burton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 74

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:57 am Post subject: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls

Even though I manufacturer the Smart Avionics CS controller, I hope my opinion is not completely biased and is of some use to this discussion.



I now have experience of both the Arplast PV50 and the Woodcomp SR3000/3 (feathering version with scimitar blades). A long time ago I also used a Warp Drive fixed pitch prop of which I remember little except it was  much harsher than the Arplast EcoProp which replaced it for a short while before I fitted the PV50. 



I basically agree with William's comments that the Arplast has super blades from the aerodynamic point of view but the hub+motor are not so good. Even after years of problems, I believe the factory is still supplying the 6V motor as it's the only way they can achieve sufficient torque to coarsen the prop under heavy load. Incidently, I believe you can reduce the likelyhood of the motor frying by connecting a 2ohm power resistor into the wire that supplies the power to the pitch motor. The Arplast supplied control box used to be crap but it could be better now (if you use a CSC-1/P you don't need their box anyway).



The only issue I had with the blades is that they have zero leading edge protection and so getting chewed to bits if your airfield is stony. Even with leading edge tape fitted, a large stone would take out big chunks of gelcoat  and cause de-lamination.



Once balanced, the Arplast is a very nice smooth prop.



The quality of the Woodcomp SR3000 is mostly very good. My blades have the carbon finish and look fantastic. The leading edge protect is extremely good.  The hub looks adequate and the motor substantial. I don't have that many hours with it yet to say how reliable it is. The wiring between the slip rings, limit switches, motor, etc. looks a bit untidy but not really a problem. Again, the factory electronics does not have a good record for reliability so a lot of people are now ditching the Woodcomp stuff and fitting my controller instead.



Performance wise, it is similar to the PV50 except that the static thrust appears somewhat greater and so provides excellent acceleration - I would think a good prop for short strips. Again, once balanced, the prop is nice and smooth.



My aircraft is slow because it is a tri-gear with no spats and a small engine so I can't really say how either prop performs speed wise.



To summarise, the PV50 and the SR3000 are both very good value and provide good performance. In terms of overall quality of engineering, the Woodcomp wins.



Best of all, both of these props can be controlled by the Smart Avionics CSC controller! This controller can also handle the feathering on the SR3000.



I have flown in aircraft fitted with the Airmaster prop and it works OK but I still think the Warp Drive blades are terribly harsh and the Airmaster controller is poor value for money and lacking in capability.



Mark

Mark Burton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 74

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:40 am Post subject: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls

A few other thoughts:



The Airmaster probably has the best engineered hub of the propellers discussed.



The Airmaster for some time has had a problem with introducing noise into the radio/intercom when the pitch changes and I believe the factory were aware of that and had a fix - perhaps people with Airmasters can confirm/deny this.



Smart Avionics has now sold more than 120 constant speed controllers and I am only aware of 1 unit failing in service due to a component failure.



If you want a smooth prop - balance it!



Mark

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:31 am Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

Hi! Carl

Someone the other day somewhere mentioned that Airmaster will be

offering an option with Sensenitch blades at Oshkosh ? That would be

good, however after 600 hours with the MT and facing almost the cost of

new for their 72 month overhaul and since my mind was made up by my

prang last May I have gone for the Woodcomp Scimitar SR 3000 with Mark

Burtons Smart Controller. May as well keep it cheap and be in a better

position at TBO time. BTW Checko is nearer than NZ ! I've been round

their factory on the first 6 Nations trip with William and David Joyce

...great product, great folks, great facility, state of the art

controller from Mark.



Bob H 



--

tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:06 pm Post subject: Woodcomp propeller controls

 	  Quote: 	
		  >> The Airmaster for some time has had a problem with introducing noise

into the radio/intercom when the pitch changes and I believe the factory
	


were aware of that and had a fix - perhaps people with Airmasters can

confirm/deny this.



Yes, that was fixed with a change to the controller design. 



BTW.. A certain Europa that lives in my hangar looks really great with

its white Sensenich blades ... and for more information you're going to

have to go to Oshkosh!



Tony

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