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nielskock(at)get2net.dk
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Paul, I am not sure that i quite agree with you,  that if at all possible the builder should refrain from

 test flying his own Europa. 

 I realise that you have safety in mind, and quite rightly  so. I cannot, however, but ponder the number

 of accidents having occurred to builders test flying their own  Europa. Am i wrong in assuming that 

 this number is very small ? - again  admitting that it ought to be nil. 

  

 The first time I took OY-ODA aloft, on a glorious sun-drenched  afternoon, June 12 1999 my tailwheel 

 experience was unimpressive, and although having manhandled a  Europa a couple of times I had never

 been at the helm during take off or landing. That is, if  you discount the time during high-speed taxy-test 

 where I suddenly found myself about 50 feet above  the runway. Without really deliberating my options, 

 I throttled back and landed without drama. Mark you this was  not successful due to any aeronautical 

 excellence on my part, but thanks to the absolutely splendid  flying characteristics of the Europa, and

 this unintended take off convinced me that this part was  nothing for which to go into a stupor. 

  

 What I mean is that

 1. All Europas having been cleared by their  inspectors will, almost per definition, be

    well behaving when airborne.

 2. I seriously doubt that an eventual accompanying  flying-instructor can prevent a ground

     loop if the builder has initiated one. The  extra weight of the instructor only increases the

     inertia.

 3. The ongoing horror stories about the proneness of the mono  to groundloop are, I feel, somewhat

      exaggerated, and, what is worse, they  will unavoidably add to the likely pre-take off apprehension 

      of the builder. Which may  increase his concentration, but as likely will deteriorate his flying  perfor-

      mance. And weeks or months of  waiting for the availability of a suitable test pilot  serves 

      only to increase the  apprehension .

  4. Finally, one should not ignore the significance  of the marvellous moment where  you yourself take  

      that blasted, expensive, beautiful toy, gestated, perhaps, in spite of  your wife's silent misgivings, 

      aloft for the very first time.  And,afterwards, having parked and shut down the engine, can lean back,  

      shut  your eyes and enjoy one of the rare moments in life, where you are truly  in awe.

  

 Perhaps I am just a romantic.

  

 Niels Kock

  

  



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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Niels

good to see you here! I suspect that some monos ARE prone to ground loop 

and some aren't. Similarly some pilots are and some aren't. Two 

variables equals four times the risk, if you see what I mean.



It is important to have full 13 degrees of up elevator to give enough 

down force with the tail wheel on the ground. that will give an AoA on 

the elevator of about 3 degrees? At 20 knots there isn't much force.

It's also important that the pilot recognises the incipient yaw as soon 

as it starts because as soon as rotation starts momentum builds up and 

there isn't enough rudder/tailwheel resistance to stop it. Add the 

confusing effects from the outriggers rocking side to side and the 

pilots gyro will start to topple ?



In the USA the number of accidents to builders first flighting is 

depressingly high, (not just Europas) we spend all our waking hours 

thinking and doing the build and tend to neglect our flying skills. Then 

we try and fly an aircraft with unknown characteristics which might not 

even be true to type.



Hope to see you over here one day?



Graham



Niels Kock wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Paul, I am not sure that i quite agree with you, that if at all possible 

 the builder should refrain from

 test flying his own Europa.

  I cannot, however, but ponder the number
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   of accidents having occurred to builders test flying their own Europa. 

 Am i wrong in assuming that

 this number is very small ? 


	


-- 

Graham Singleton



Tel: +441629820187

Mob: +447739582005

nielskock(at)get2net.dk
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:21 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Oh, Graham!

Why must you rid me of my blissful ignorance? -as well regarding the 

mathematic numbers

as the number of US first timers coming to grief.



Not any longer strutting around thinking that I am good AND lucky, but 

henceforth realising that I am

just plain lucky, probably even unjustifiably so, will from now on mar my 

every take off and landing.

(the latter never having won me any prize for elegance anyway).



Still, bearing your opening remarks in mind, and granting that you and Paul 

are predominantly right,

I cannot but help giving an illustration to support my opinion on the 

matter:



The year is 1995. ODA is inexorably taking shape, and my speculations about 

the relentlessly

approaching day, where I must bow to the demand for tail-wheel tutelage is 

beginning to ever so

faintly affect the peristalsis of my alimentary canal.



-We now jump a couple of months ahead. The dearth of tail wheel instructors 

in our Queendom

made the choise easy, and I am now the humble survivor of 115 tail wheel 

landings. "Why so humble,

this is not like him", I hear you mutter. Well, let me explain:



The long drawn out battle against a host of non-cooperative natural laws - 

and, mind you, I am not using

the term 'losing battle'- has by now turned into a battle of attrition. Be 

informed, that nothing has

been broken yet, not even the undercarriage of the clumsy, yes I used the 

word clumsy, canary-yellow

Piper Cub. The only casualties so far are my pride and the sorely tested 

patience of my instructor, a sinister,

but not entirely unfriendly man. You see, this cub was not blessed with an 

intercom. Thus verbal tuition from

my tutor, long ago resigned to his fate, was not forthcoming during the 

final approach to seemingly certain

desaster, but in the back of my head his icy disapproval of the proceedings 

was evident, resulting in a tense-

ness in the abject pupil (me) beyond description. After 22 years with nose 

wheel flying it is simply not possible

to look sideways during the final stage of landing, now, issit?



Finally, after another survival, he put a still slightly trembling hand on 

my tense shoulder, sighed heartbrakingly,

and uttered these words, "Niels, I don't think you should spend more money 

on this." My 6 ft something shrank

to approxymately half that size. But then his good heart, bless that, cut 

in, because, after another, even deeper

sigh, he added.: "You get in now, make a circuit, and show me that you can 

do this".

Lo and behold: I did it, of course. With an almost overwhelming sense of 

freedom and relaxation.

and, so far I have been lucky.

That's my point.



Niels



---

hansjd(at)online.no
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:22 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Hi Graham, Niels,all.



I have followed this thread on first flights. I just did mine and had no 

doubts doing it myself. I waited a long time for the right weather though. I 

would not let any consideration regarding x-winds low ceilings etc., disturb 

me.



You have to be current on tailwheels (cub's are fine), and not allow the 

nose of the A/C to wander from the centerline. Stick in the stomach to 

aileron-bite-speed and there you are. My take offs and landings are 

non-events.



Hans

---

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:06 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Niels,



Thanks for this posting.  I laughed until I nearly cried when I read your

experiences about learning to fly a tail dragger.



At 700 hours of Trigear, and admittedly 50 hours of sail plane time I

thought I'd better get a tail wheel rating.



I went to our local field where they had a Citaborea and signed up with a

guy who was an ex navy carrier pilot.  Honest to god, every time I landed

the aircraft I just thought it was going to explode on the runway.  No

sooner had it touched down it immediately decided to head for the weeds, no

matter what I commanded it to do.  What used to surprise  me even more on

how deftly my instructor could reach over and retrieve what seemed to me a

certain crash.  I am pretty sure that the guys in the tower were selling

tickets for the free show.



After 6 hours and much head shaking by my instructor I began to wonder what

was I going to do with my near completed Europa sitting at home, it seemed

to me that I was going to destroy it.



Then suddenly one day I could do it, every time, under the most difficult of

conditions.



So I found your story quite amusing.  My instructor never put his hand on my

shoulder and said "Paul I don't think you should spend more money

on this." but I know he was thinking it.



Thanks for sharing the story.



Paul

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Niels

You are too hard on yourself! (and thank you for making me smile again) 

You and I learnt to fly taildraggers later in life than the ideal, I do 

so envy the young ones their ability to learn so easily, (provided they 

have the necessary open mind). As Paul remarks, sometimes there is no 

choice but nevertheless a test pilot current on type will always be the 

best choice because it removes one very large variable from the equation.

regards

Graham

Niels Kock wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Oh, Graham!

 Why must you rid me of my blissful ignorance? -as well regarding the 

 mathematic numbers

 as the number of US first timers coming to grief.

europa flugzeug fabrik

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 65
Location: North Coast, USA

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: builder test flying his own creation?

 	  grahamsingleton(at)btinte wrote: 	
		  In the USA the number of accidents to builders first flighting is depressingly high, (not just Europas) we spend all our waking hours thinking and doing the build and tend to neglect our flying skills. Then we try and fly an aircraft with unknown characteristics which might not even be true to type. 	


This is actually old history.  One can take NTSB's raw data file each year and analyze amateur-built accidents by A/C type and airframe hours at the time of the accident.  We will first see that around 90% of completions are now kitplanes, and accidents due to mechanical causes are way down.  So are pilot error accidents, because these are becoming infrequent with fewer planes with difficult flight characteristics and not enough of them built to get some dual before first flight.



With kits we have standardization of construction instructions and further support from the kit mfr.  We have type-specific support available on the internet.  There still are some accidents, mostly due to a builders "better" way of implementing the fuel system or installing a used automobile engine in a poor way.



Fred F.

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: Re: builder test flying his own creation?

I also found that doing the full 40 test hours myself was extremely satisfying. 

Being something of a quant, I kept my time occupied running

a full set of test cards and discussing the results with Bud Yerly. 



During the 3 year build, I kept flying, trying to maintain 50 hours a year.

I was very grateful to have John Hurst and Jimmy Thursby to fly with in

the factory demonstrators for a few hours and Gary Stout in his beautiful

plane too.



Historically, there have been a few examples of mechanically poor kits,

like the Revolution500, and also some kits requiring better than average

piloting skills to stay alive. The BD5 comes to mind with a first flight

mortality over 50% by most reports.  As Fred said most builds now are

kits, and these kits are either matched hole aluminum or molded glass

shapes. 



These technologies make it much more difficult to build an A/C seriously

out of rig or out of type spec.  Most of the current generation of these

A/C require no special ability to fly well.  In my opinion, there is no

reason to not allow these builders to do their own responsible test

program.

_________________
Ira N224XS

nielskock(at)get2net.dk
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Graham, Paul.

Thanks for your soothing remarks, Graham, I needed them.

Faith, with cruel irony, decreed today that I be smacked for my cockyness.

Beheld by several hundres of gaping spectators (at the yearly Stauning 

event)

I displayed my very first true ground loop, the humiliation of which I hope 

was

balanced  by the élan with which it was performed. Exit one Arplast VP 

propeller.

Wind and weather not to blame. Sheer, undiluted complacency.

Serves me right, it does.

And, Paul, wipe that smug grin off your face!

Yours, however,

Niels



---

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

What I mean is that

1. All Europas having been cleared by their inspectors will, almost per 

definition, be

   well behaving when airborne.

2. I seriously doubt that an eventual accompanying flying-instructor can 

prevent a ground

    loop if the builder has initiated one. The extra weight of the 

instructor only increases the

    inertia.

3. The ongoing horror stories about the proneness of the mono to groundloop 

are, I feel, somewhat

     exaggerated, and, what is worse, they will unavoidably add to the 

likely pre-take off apprehension

     of the builder. Which may increase his concentration, but as likely 

will deteriorate his flying perfor-

     mance. And weeks or months of waiting for the availability of a 

suitable test pilot serves

     only to increase the apprehension .

 4. Finally, one should not ignore the significance of the marvellous moment 

where  you yourself take

     that blasted, expensive, beautiful toy, gestated, perhaps, in spite of 

your wife's silent misgivings,

     aloft for the very first time. And,afterwards, having parked and shut 

down the engine, can lean back,

     shut  your eyes and enjoy one of the rare moments in life, where you 

are truly in awe.

Niels,



Just goes to show how wrong you can be.  You are not the first and you will 

not be the last.  I didn't test fly my mono, but with a good measure of 

overconfidence in a 20 knot crosswind, it bit me also.



At least you are safe and just have the embarrassment of paying for a new 

prop.



How would you now modify your previous statements     --    repeated above.



regards,



Mike

nielskock(at)get2net.dk
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Mike,

It just proves that one cannot rely on one's own experience alone, but

should benefit from those of others, before opening one's big mouth.

The message is that what is true for some is not for others.

regards,

Niels

---

96victor(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Hi Niels

  

 I am sorry to hear about your ground loop.  I don't understand your regrets about doing your first flight.  Evidently that was ok and you had the loop problem on a subsequent flight.  Is that correct?

  

 If someone else had done the first flight and you flew afterward, would you not have been just as likely to have the aircraft get away from you?

  

 What am I missing here?

  

 Tom Friedland, A 079, N96V



 

 On 6/10/07, Niels Kock <nielskock(at)get2net.dk (nielskock(at)get2net.dk)> wrote: [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Niels Kock" <nielskock(at)get2net.dk  (nielskock(at)get2net.dk)>



Mike,

It just proves that one cannot rely on one's own experience alone, but

should benefit from those of others, before opening one's big mouth.

The message is that what is true for some is not for others. 

regards,

Niels

---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:31 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

thanks Fred

Graham



europa flugzeug fabrik wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 grahamsingleton(at)btinte wrote:

 

>In the USA the number of accidents to builders first flighting is depressingly high, (not just Europas) we spend all our waking hours thinking and doing the build and tend to neglect our flying skills. Then we try and fly an aircraft with unknown characteristics which might not even be true to type.

 

 

 This is actually old history.  One can take NTSB's raw data file each year and analyze amateur-built accidents by A/C type and airframe hours at the time of the accident.  We will first see that around 90% of completions are now kitplanes, and accidents due to mechanical causes are way down.  So are pilot error accidents, because these are becoming infrequent with fewer planes with difficult flight characteristics and not enough of them built to get some dual before first flight.

 

 With kits we have standardization of construction instructions and further support from the kit mfr.  We have type-specific support available on the internet.  There still are some accidents, mostly due to a builders "better" way of implementing the fuel system or installing a used automobile engine in a poor way.

 

 Fred F.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117416#117416

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


	


-- 

Graham Singleton



Tel: +441629820187

Mob: +447739582005

nielskock(at)get2net.dk
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Hello, Tom.

 You are right. The ground loop was last Saturday, and my first  flight ,which I had no qualms about and which went just fine, was exacty 8  years ago.

 And your last paragraph is my point exactly, because no  matter how extensively your Europa has been test flown by another person,  your first flight will still be your first flight.

 But I think  - if I am not remembering wrong - that  Graham and Paul Mcallister's poin was that the safest way was to have some  experienced hand at your side initially.

  

 Niels

 [quote]   ---

asarangan(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

It appears to me from these discussions that what is needed most is a

good transition training program. Perhaps this is something that the

Europa company could offer as another source of revenue. I am sure

builders would travel to the UK to get this training, but I don't know

if the UK regs allow this. In the U.S, transition flight training in an

experimental is permitted.



--- Tom Friedland <96victor(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Niels

 

 I am sorry to hear about your ground loop.  I don't understand your

 regrets

 about doing your first flight.  Evidently that was ok and you had the

 loop

 problem on a subsequent flight.  Is that correct?

 

 If someone else had done the first flight and you flew afterward,

 would you

 not have been just as likely to have the aircraft get away from you?

 

 What am I missing here?

 

 Tom Friedland, A 079, N96V

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Niels

Certainly I recommend that pilots need to be checked out on a Europa at 

least once. My other point is that for first flight, because the 

airplane may not be exactly typical of Europas, a pilot current on type 

will spot any serious differences straight away, whereas if the test 

pilot has no Europa experience he may not notice it isn't right.

An inspection will not reveal subtle differences in flight 

characteristics, which could be due to small variations in airfoil profile.

Graham



Niels Kock wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   But I think  - if I am not remembering wrong - that Graham and Paul 

 Mcallister's poin was that the safest way was to have some experienced 

 hand at your side initially.

  

 Niels

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

OK Guys,

  

 You can talk your way around this subject until you  are blue in the face !!!!   I am sure the sense of achievement is  enhanced beyond measure - and it is the individual owners own  choice.

  

 But be very clear, I don't care what your  experience is - but if you test fly your own monowheel without a reasonable  amount of experience on type you are placing all your hard work at the mercy of  your overconfidence/ego.  It is entirely up to the individual.

  

 Perhaps I am underconfident these days and I have  flown a few things between Slingsby Swallow thru Chipmunk on the slow side to  F15 on the fast side, and it is very obvious to me and what has happened to  different individuals over recent years that an inexperienced europa builder  flying his own pride and joy is putting himself and his creation at an increased  risk - that's all. 

  

 Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chance.  (But  please do not cause my insurance to increase.)

  

 regards,

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

and Mike knows an awful lot more about flying than most of us!

Graham



Mike Parkin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   OK Guys,

  

 You can talk your way around this subject until you are blue in the face 

 !!!!   >  

 But be very clear, I don't care what your experience is - but if you 

 test fly your own monowheel without a reasonable amount of experience on 

 type you are placing all your hard work at the mercy of your 

 overconfidence/ego.  It is entirely up to the individual.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chance.  (But please do not cause my 

 insurance to increase.)

  

 regards,

  

 Mike

96victor(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Mike:  "

      	  Quote: 	
		   Mike:  " But be very clear, I don't care what your experience is - but if you

 	  Quote: 	
		   test fly your own monowheel without a reasonable amount of experience on

 type you are placing all your hard work at the mercy of your 

 overconfidence/ego.  It is entirely up to the individual."

 
	


  Ah, yes.  That sounds great.  Please next tell me where I should get the experience on type...  I have searched and not found a single source..  Maybe you will give me experience on type? 

  

 Tom Friedland A079 N96V

 



 

	


 On 6/11/07, Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote: [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton < grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)>



and Mike knows an awful lot more about flying than most of us!

Graham



Mike Parkin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   OK Guys,



 You can talk your way around this subject until you are blue in the face 

 !!!!   >

 But be very clear, I don't care what your experience is - but if you

 test fly your own monowheel without a reasonable amount of experience on

 type you are placing all your hard work at the mercy of your 

 overconfidence/ego.  It is entirely up to the individual.


	


[quote] Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chance.  (But please do not cause my

 insurance to increase.)



 regards,



 Mike  [quote][b]

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Tom...have you talked w/ Bud Yerly or perhaps Bob Berube?



Fred

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