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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:19 am Post subject: Runaway trim |
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I don't like the thought of it disengaging the a/p automatically. The
trim-sensing TruTrak servos/indication would be useless. When flying,
especially when on the Sorcerer or other combination systems where you can
use the a/p to fly you to your target altitude, you need to be able to trim
as the a/p tells you to.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
--
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ed(at)muellerartcover.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: Runaway trim |
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On Jun 8, 2007, at 9:18 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:
| Quote: |
<jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
I don't like the thought of it disengaging the a/p automatically.
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Only when hitting the trim switch on the yoke. The A/P itself drives
the trim servo to set the trim.
| Quote: | The
trim-sensing TruTrak servos/indication would be useless. When flying,
especially when on the Sorcerer or other combination systems where you
can
use the a/p to fly you to your target altitude, you need to be able to
trim
as the a/p tells you to.
|
It won't fly to a target altitude but you can set a vertical pitch
attitude, and again the a/p handles the trim setting.
I don't know how the Sorcerer works, do you have to set the trim
manually, like the S-tec 50? I just don't like
the idea of the trim and a/p fighting each other. It sounds like when
the pilot fights the a/p, a real no-no.
Ed Mueller
P.S. Thanks for all the advice and help you give on this board.
We all seem to get out of the habit of Do Not Archive. Would yours
have worked (below) or do I need to do it?
[quote]
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
--
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GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: Runaway trim |
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In a message dated 6/8/2007 9:21:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jesse(at)saintaviation.com writes:
| Quote: | When flying,
especially when on the Sorcerer or other combination systems where you can
use the a/p to fly you to your target altitude, you need to be able to trim
as the a/p tells you to. |
Jesse...you mean to tell me that you've got to hand trim the controls when using the Sorcerer? Even an ol' KAP 140 does all the trimming if you touch the trim either manually or electric trim...the AP should disengage automatically...
P
See what's free at AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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ScooterF15
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 136
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: Runaway trim |
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Tell me again why we need to write Do Not Archive? It sure is nice to be able to follow complete threads in the Archives.
-Jim
40134
In a message dated 6/8/2007 11:38:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ed(at)muellerartcover.com writes:
| Quote: |
We all seem to get out of the habit of Do Not Archive. Would yours
have worked (below) or do I need to do it?
|
See what's free at AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: Runaway trim |
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JSMcGrew(at)aol.com (JSMcGrew(at)aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | Tell me again why we need to write Do Not Archive? It sure is nice to be able to follow complete threads in the Archives.
|
Well, Jim, I'm sure different folks have different reasons. I add 'do not archive' if my post is my opinion or my experience .... which for now is most always. If I have factual data to post or comment on .... well, I leave it off. This isn't cast in concrete, though. To answer Eds' question ..... if it's anywhere in the body of the email, it'll get trashed. IOW, once is enough. If you feel that a post is worth archiving, search and remove all the occurances and resend it. Just MHO, of course!
Linn
[quote]
-Jim
40134
In a message dated 6/8/2007 11:38:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ed(at)muellerartcover.com (ed(at)muellerartcover.com) writes:
| Quote: |
We all seem to get out of the habit of Do Not Archive. Would yours
have worked (below) or do I need to do it?
|
See what's free at AOL.com.
[b]
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: Runaway trim |
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In response to your post and Ed’s, TruTrak offers an automatic pitch trim option, but it is not standard. The a/p give you a little indicator on the screen to trim up or town when it is having to hold pressure in a certain direction. You DO have to trim for the a/p. It will hold it up to a certain point, but it is recommended by TruTrak that you trim to take the load off the system, probably to reduce stress and possibly wear on the servos. Trimming does not disengage the a/p and should not, with this feature, as it would completely render the feature useless. As I think I mentioned, you can engage the a/p just after rotation and don’t have to disengage until almost time to flare, so there is a great need to trimming in between those times. The Sorcerer will fly to a target altitude, either using the “Sel” for climb of “Vnav” for descent. It will fly you to your desired altitude and then level you off. It will climb on IAS or VS and will descend over a set distance or via VS. I don’t know about other a/p’s, but TruTrak is leading the experimental market and their people are from the certified world, so they know what they are doing, IMHO, regarding trim.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 11:36 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Runaway trim
Jesse...you mean to tell me that you've got to hand trim the controls when using the Sorcerer? Even an ol' KAP 140 does all the trimming if you touch the trim either manually or electric trim...the AP should disengage automatically...
P
[quote] [b]
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: Runaway trim |
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Not all conversation merits archival techniques into perpetuity. Those that do …. should not use “Do not Archive”.
I have been told offline that everyone on this list can filter out the advice of those who are not pilots but try to give advice as if they were, builders who do not hold a repairman certificate, or are just lurkers who find the discussions of interest. It is meant to be a courtesy to those few readers who actually resort to searching the archives. Tim and I have used it extensively and I apologize for those times when I forget. Its misuse may have something to do with why the quality traffic has dropped so abruptly and much valuable discussion is now taking place “Offline”.
This one is not for the records.
John Cox -#40600
Do not Archive.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:45 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Runaway trim
Tell me again why we need to write Do Not Archive? It sure is nice to be able to follow complete threads in the Archives.
-Jim
40134
In a message dated 6/8/2007 11:38:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ed(at)muellerartcover.com writes:
| Quote: |
We all seem to get out of the habit of Do Not Archive. Would yours
have worked (below) or do I need to do it? |
See what's free at AOL.com.
[quote] [b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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jjessen
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: Runaway trim |
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I have no dog in this trim a/p hunt, but, man, I love hand flying. I know the -10 is all about cruising, but it is also a great plane to fly. I once took a ride in a Cirrus SR-22 from Boston to North Philly. The owner punched the A/P button at about 800 feet out of KBED and took back over on approach. Boring. Waste of time. Nice to see the landscape below, way below. Again, great for long distance when you want to lay back and read the AIM, I guess. (should I don my fire retardant clothing?)
John J
Getting close to re-engaging aluminum
do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 9:31 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Runaway trim
In response to your post and Ed’s, TruTrak offers an automatic pitch trim option, but it is not standard. The a/p give you a little indicator on the screen to trim up or town when it is having to hold pressure in a certain direction. You DO have to trim for the a/p. It will hold it up to a certain point, but it is recommended by TruTrak that you trim to take the load off the system, probably to reduce stress and possibly wear on the servos. Trimming does not disengage the a/p and should not, with this feature, as it would completely render the feature useless. As I think I mentioned, you can engage the a/p just after rotation and don’t have to disengage until almost time to flare, so there is a great need to trimming in between those times. The Sorcerer will fly to a target altitude, either using the “Sel” for climb of “Vnav” for descent. It will fly you to your desired altitude and then level you off. It will climb on IAS or VS and will descend over a set distance or via VS. I don’t know about other a/p’s, but TruTrak is leading the experimental market and their people are from the certified world, so they know what they are doing, IMHO, regarding trim.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 11:36 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Runaway trim
Jesse...you mean to tell me that you've got to hand trim the controls when using the Sorcerer? Even an ol' KAP 140 does all the trimming if you touch the trim either manually or electric trim...the AP should disengage automatically...
P
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
0123
4 [quote][b]
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jjessen
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:17 am Post subject: Runaway trim |
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Well, you know what? How about some of those quality discussions being placed back online!
If there are good points that need making or that are being made that someone is privy to that would help this list, especially for us folks not in the, apparently many, offline discussions, then please, get them online. We need folks to learn, and part of learning is to put forth an opinion. Part of learning is to then have an expert respond with advice about that opinion. I don't typically say anything technical because I'm not yet confident or experienced enough (well, I now might say something about deburrrrrring), but that doesn't mitigate the fact that I have an opinion every once in awhile, such as NO you don't need a WET compass, but it is pretty a pretty fail safe instrument when others go south, although I think a battery back up would be better.
Get the conversations online. There are too many of us who need the knowledge. We especially need expert opinions, and there are experts following this list.
Ok, rant over. Back to earning a living.
John J
#328
do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 9:41 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Runaway trim
Not all conversation merits archival techniques into perpetuity. Those that do …. should not use “Do not Archive”.
I have been told offline that everyone on this list can filter out the advice of those who are not pilots but try to give advice as if they were, builders who do not hold a repairman certificate, or are just lurkers who find the discussions of interest. It is meant to be a courtesy to those few readers who actually resort to searching the archives. Tim and I have used it extensively and I apologize for those times when I forget. Its misuse may have something to do with why the quality traffic has dropped so abruptly and much valuable discussion is now taking place “Offline”.
This one is not for the records.
John Cox -#40600
Do not Archive.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:45 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Runaway trim
Tell me again why we need to write Do Not Archive? It sure is nice to be able to follow complete threads in the Archives.
-Jim
40134
In a message dated 6/8/2007 11:38:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ed(at)muellerartcover.com writes:
| Quote: |
We all seem to get out of the habit of Do Not Archive. Would yours
have worked (below) or do I need to do it? |
See what's free at AOL.com.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
01234
5 [quote][b]
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: Runaway trim |
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Are you in town this weekend? I am catching up on my Honey Do List.
Those Rivet Head parts need a home and payment… right?
Offline as needed. “Do not Archive” as needed. Wish fewer of the builders were posting offline but I understand the dynamic and must reluctantly cede to their wishes to communicate away from all the negative feedback. I have posted this concern before – total subject posts and responses are down considerably and is a trend which needs positive correction. Jesse has taken over the RV-10 list as the “now defacto” expert on all pilot operations, builder operations and component expert as well. As several have mentioned offline, they cannot find a pilot certificate, repairman certificate or any formal training for such a basis of wisdom from his youthful posts. Even Dan Checkoway has left the list from posting his wisdom.
Hope you are making progress on your kit. Paul and I am about to proseal the aft lower fuselage skin onto the main fuselage this weekend.
Work is just that, I am either moving from Heavy Check into Line Maintenance or to Quality Control Inspection in the next few months. We are undergoing “Lean Training” from an efficiency expert from Andersen Window Manufacturing. Now if you can explain how that will help a Service Business, I am all ears. The company has approved my week off for OSH so I am now officially going.
John
600
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:17 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Runaway trim
Well, you know what? How about some of those quality discussions being placed back online!
If there are good points that need making or that are being made that someone is privy to that would help this list, especially for us folks not in the, apparently many, offline discussions, then please, get them online. We need folks to learn, and part of learning is to put forth an opinion. Part of learning is to then have an expert respond with advice about that opinion. I don't typically say anything technical because I'm not yet confident or experienced enough (well, I now might say something about deburrrrrring), but that doesn't mitigate the fact that I have an opinion every once in awhile, such as NO you don't need a WET compass, but it is pretty a pretty fail safe instrument when others go south, although I think a battery back up would be better.
Get the conversations online. There are too many of us who need the knowledge. We especially need expert opinions, and there are experts following this list.
Ok, rant over. Back to earning a living.
John J
#328
do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 9:41 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Runaway trim
Not all conversation merits archival techniques into perpetuity. Those that do …. should not use “Do not Archive”.
I have been told offline that everyone on this list can filter out the advice of those who are not pilots but try to give advice as if they were, builders who do not hold a repairman certificate, or are just lurkers who find the discussions of interest. It is meant to be a courtesy to those few readers who actually resort to searching the archives. Tim and I have used it extensively and I apologize for those times when I forget. Its misuse may have something to do with why the quality traffic has dropped so abruptly and much valuable discussion is now taking place “Offline”.
This one is not for the records.
John Cox -#40600
Do not Archive.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:45 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Runaway trim
Tell me again why we need to write Do Not Archive? It sure is nice to be able to follow complete threads in the Archives.
-Jim
40134
In a message dated 6/8/2007 11:38:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ed(at)muellerartcover.com writes:
| Quote: |
We all seem to get out of the habit of Do Not Archive. Would yours
have worked (below) or do I need to do it? |
See what's free at AOL.com.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com |
[quote] [b]
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acs(at)acspropeller.com.a
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: Runaway Trim |
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One of the things that worries me about a runaway trim, is a statement to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau regarding a near accident in an EMB110 just over a year ago.
The Pilot in command (he had a co-pilot as well) said he couldn't let go of the control column in order to pull the CB. The co-pilot was thus engaged as well.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2005/aair/pdf/aair200504340_001.pdf
What are the forces required to overcome full nose down or up trim in an RV-10?
Has anyone tried this?
What is the safest place for the CB placement?
How to reset neutral trim?
It might have just been habit and a hang over from my early training days, but I was always more comfortable with a trim wheel. Is anyone doing this?
John 40315 (Finishing)
[quote][b]
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bhughes(at)qnsi.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: Runaway Trim |
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John,
Your the first person who has questioned the need to reset neutral trim. The DPDT switch circuit I posted a few days ago will be my method to address this. Actually I will be using a 4PDT switch to include the roll trim. A friend of mine and very experienced pilot \ builder had a runaway trim event a few years ago. He said it was a real challenge to keep the plane in the air and land. The reversible \ cut-off switch is his solution and after a little investigation I think it is a better solution than a breaker. What really sold me was a recent report of a runaway trim event on the Lancair list. I think it was on one of the first few test flights. Pilot and plane got down ok but apparently it took a lot of strength to keep it in the air.
Disclaimer... This is my first experimental aircraft. I am a low time pilot.... I do not hold a repairman's certificate.....slept at a Holiday Inn once this year. Oh yes.. I am installing an automobile engine.
Bobby
40116R
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Dunne
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 2:17 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Runaway Trim
One of the things that worries me about a runaway trim, is a statement to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau regarding a near accident in an EMB110 just over a year ago.
The Pilot in command (he had a co-pilot as well) said he couldn't let go of the control column in order to pull the CB. The co-pilot was thus engaged as well.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2005/aair/pdf/aair200504340_001.pdf
What are the forces required to overcome full nose down or up trim in an RV-10?
Has anyone tried this?
What is the safest place for the CB placement?
How to reset neutral trim?
It might have just been habit and a hang over from my early training days, but I was always more comfortable with a trim wheel. Is anyone doing this?
John 40315 (Finishing)
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
[b]
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marcausman
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Runaway trim |
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[quote="Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.co"] As a few have mentioned by the time you notice the problem, cutting power probably won't help much. Recognizing the problem and recovering smoothly is the solution.
Dave, I agree. You need to stop the trim, and probably by the time you stop it, you are well out of trim. The Vertical Power system shows on the pilot display when either trim or flaps is running, and will have audio tones as well. There are no mechanical relays - each flap and trim control circuit uses two solid state switches in series, so that if one fails you don't have a runaway condition. We also stop the motor if opposite trim or flap is commanded - so if the down trim wire shorts for example, you press the up trim button and the motor stops. Hold this for 3 seconds and the trim switch is disconnected. You can then run the trim & flaps from the display (using the soft keys) as a backup and hopefully get the trim back to neutral.
Runaway trim is a very bad condition, and we really wanted to design a system that makes electric trim safe yet easy to wire. Come by and take a look at OSH.
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_________________
Marc Ausman
http://www.verticalpower.com "Move up to a modern electrical system"
RV-7 IO-390 Flying |
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coop85(at)cableone.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: Runaway Trim |
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I also shared your concern so added a switch to disconnect power to the trim if required. It’s all by itself just above the throttle and I can hit it pretty quick if required. As to how much force would it take to handle would depend entirely on how fast you are. I’ve found the trim rate ideal for slow speed but pretty sensitive if you are at cruise. My plan is to hit the switch and slow down as required if it happens. I have not discovered a means to recenter the trim if it starts to runway.
Marcus
40286
Just passed 150 hours
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Dunne
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 3:17 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Runaway Trim
One of the things that worries me about a runaway trim, is a statement to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau regarding a near accident in an EMB110 just over a year ago.
The Pilot in command (he had a co-pilot as well) said he couldn't let go of the control column in order to pull the CB. The co-pilot was thus engaged as well.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2005/aair/pdf/aair200504340_001.pdf
What are the forces required to overcome full nose down or up trim in an RV-10?
Has anyone tried this?
What is the safest place for the CB placement?
How to reset neutral trim?
It might have just been habit and a hang over from my early training days, but I was always more comfortable with a trim wheel. Is anyone doing this?
John 40315 (Finishing)
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