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} Prop Balancing

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pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: } Prop Balancing

Sorry Carl I totally disagree with you.  



Mark's balancer, one of which I own, is perfectly straight forward to set

up and use and produces excellent results.  I had no dificulty in balancing

the NSI prop on my Classic and would recomend the equipment to any one. 

You don't need training just read the manual!



Regards



Pete



Original Message:

-----------------

From: Carl Pattinson carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 08:02:38 +0100

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: {Spam?} Prop Balancing


<carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>



The EUROPA club has its own prop balancer which is available to club

members 

for a small charge.



Because it is quite tricky to setup and difficult to interperet the

readings 

(ie: you need training to get the best result) Pete Jeffers, the resident 

expert keeps the kit and will come and set it up for you. You need to 

balance the carbs beore hand as this affects the readings.



Pete balanced our prop last year and the whole procedure took about an hour.



I dont have his number but it is in the Europa Club mag somewhere.



Carl Pattinson

G-LABS

---

Mark Burton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 74

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: Re: } Prop Balancing

Thanks Pete!



RTFM = Read The Fine Manual (and double your mileage).



What I have found so far is that balancing a prop when everything else is perfect is quite straightforward. The problem with propeller balancing is that quite often, it's not the propeller that is the main source of vibration. For example,  in the last couple of weeks I have used my balancer on three installations:



1 - A 2 bladed composite prop on a 912S - propeller needed very little weight adding - the real problem was the 912S inlet manifold (big tube thingy behind the carbs) banging against an oil cooler mounting tray - when the owner sawed 1cm off the corner of the tray, the thing went from being very lumpy to OK - 10 minutes later the prop was balanced as well. The owner was convinced that the engine was going to have to be swapped!



2 - Airmaster prop on Jab 3300 - straightforward - started at around 0.2 IPS - needed about 10 washers adding but finished up at 0.06 IPS - got a text message from the owner today - he was very pleased with how smooth it had become.



3 - Arplast PV50 on a 912 - prop probably could be slightly better balanced but this was impossible to achieve due to some as yet un-diagnosed problem with the engine. (PJ - you were right, it's not the prop that's the major vibration source here).



I think those 3 are quite representive of what you see when balancing props.



BTW - If you're using my PB-1 unit then it's fairly easy to spot non-prop vibration  right away because the graphical display will bounce around like a dingbat and the numbers are inconsistent. If the prop is badly out of balance, the display is much steadier and the numbers more consistent.



PB-1 owner/operators - please contact me off list if you have any questions regarding its usage.

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: } Prop Balancing

My message wasnt meant to be a criticism of the prop balancer, though even 

with Pete Jeffers excellent explanation I struggled to grasp exactly what he 

was doing, and we balanced two propellers on the day. But then I didnt have 

the benefit of the instruction manual.



I would certainly agree it is an excellent piece of kit but as with all 

things it takes practice to get the best out of it. I suspect if a prop is 

wildly off balance it would have shown this. In my case my prop was almost 

perfectly balanced before we started (purely by chance) and we spent half an 

hour moving washers all over the place ending up with a single light washer 

under one of the spinner screws. If I wanted to be cynical I could say it 

was a waste of time but then no one knew the prop was in balance before we 

started. In such a situation an inexperienced operator would have spent all 

day trying to improve on what turned out to be a perfectly balanced 

propeller. After all its a bit of a bummer to discover that you spent £1,500 

only to find it made no improvement.



IMHO I dont think its possible to know when a prop is in balance and when it 

isnt (unless its a long way out). Only recently I took Andy Draper for a 

flight and he commented as we taxied out to the runway that he thought the 

prop was out of balance - that was a couple of months after it was balanced. 

The fact is that the slow running jets are a bit out adjustment (and they 

are buggers to adjust). At 3000rpm and above (where it counts) its as smooth 

as silk.



The point I should have made that as for the Europa club its an expensive 

investment (and as they are no longer available irreplacable!). Its much 

quicker and easier to gete Pete to do the job than to try and do it 

yourself. Like many others i'm the sort of person who goes out and buys a 

gadget to do a job I know I will only ever do once.  My workshop is full of 

brand new tools that rarely see the light of day. For most of us £1,500 is a 

big investment when you can get the job done for £50.



Hope that makes things clearer.



Carl.



PS: If anyone s interested we used a Twinmax carb balancer which I can 

highly reccommend. Cost £50 or im happy to loan mine for a small 

consideration. details here 

http://www.calamander.co.uk/twinmax/twinmaxmk2.htm



---

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:15 am Post subject: } Prop Balancing

Hi Mark,



I think your message proves my case.



Its unquestionably an excellent piece of kit but it does need "an expert" to 

determine whether it is the prop thats out of balance as opposed to some 

other problem.



Im sure though that the manual covers such anomalies.



Carl



---

Mark Burton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 74

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: Re: } Prop Balancing

Hi Carl,



I agree with all you say except the bit about the club's PB-1 being irreplacable. Maintenance of existing units is not a problem - I'm just not making any new units right now.



Back to balancing - it's definitely something that you have to do to understand what's going on. Reading the manual only takes you so far. I think that everytime I balance a prop, I learn a little bit more.



Regards,



Mark

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:42 am Post subject: } Prop Balancing

For most of us £1,500 is a

 	  Quote: 	
		   big investment when you can get the job done for £50.




	


Fortunately, at the moment I am able to borrow an ACES Computerised Balancer 

from work.  It does an excellent job at balancing the prop on my aircraft. 

All that is necessary is to read the manual.



Carl, what you are saying is that the balancer bought by the club is for the 

use of chosen individuals only - other lesser mortals have still to pay to 

have their props balanced - is my understanding correct.



regards,

Mike

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: } Prop Balancing

The prop balancer is (as far as I am know) is for use by Europa club members 

only - if thats what you mean by the chosen few. However the charge (which I 

believe is £50) is what we all pay. Its to cover the cost of the purchase 

and for Pete Jeffers time and expertise (cheap by any standards).



I dont know if the Europa club would loan the kit to non members - you would 

have to ask them. Personally I doubt it after all whats the point of having 

a club if non members can enjoy the same benefits as those who subscribe..



Hope that clarifies things

---

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:17 pm Post subject: } Prop Balancing

Carl,



You missed the point.  The question is, is the club owned prop balancer 

available to club members  - or, is a prop balancing service kindly provided 

by Pete the only thing that is available - at a cost.



regards,



MIke



---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: } Prop Balancing

Sure

read the manual, at least three times!

Graham



pete(at)lawless.info wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Sorry Carl I totally disagree with you.  

  I had no dificulty in balancing the NSI prop on my Classic and would 
	


recomend the equipment to any one.

 	  Quote: 	
		   You don't need training just read the manual!

 

 Regards

 

 Pete

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject: } Prop Balancing

Mike



My understanding is the Club prop balancer is only available with Pete 

Jeffers assistance - ie: it is a prop balancing service (hope thats clear 

enough). The reason being its a valuable piece of kit and the club isnt 

willing to risk loss or damage by hirng it out to inexperienced operators.



But then I cant speak for the club. The best person to ask is Pete himself - 

01494 881431 or email pjeffers(at)talktalk.net or inspector(at)europaclub.org.uk 

For those that dont know he is located near Booker Airfield at High Wycombe 

so you can fly in to get the job done.



PS: I just looked in the Europa Club mag and the cost is £75, not £50 as I 

prevously stated (the ad listed under Europa Merchandising actually says 

approximately £75)



The other tools include 3.125 Tungsten Carbide holesaw, Rotax Carb Balancer, 

SWR test meter, Mod72 reamer. These are free to members but you pay for the 

postage both ways.



Regards



Carl

---

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