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Wet Compass

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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: Wet Compass

I have selected an all electric, (no round gauges) panel with a Dynon

100 as a backup. It looks to me to be about as nice a panel as I could

have dreamed.

My questions is am I REQUIRED to have a wet compass? 



Robin

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: Wet Compass

Even though you primary EFIS with magnetometer or backup Dynon may meet the requirement of a "Magnetic Direction indicator" in FAR 91.205 b(3), why not put one in for when the crap hits the fan.  I've seen Dynon's "lose their minds."  Look to the certified airframe manufactures, even the G1000/Avidyne equipped airplanes include the basic "round gauge" backups.  They are cheap, they are proven.  This is just my personal opinion but the idea of backing up one piece of experimental avionics with another would make me uncomfortable with anything but VFR flight.



The SIRs Navigator compass is especially nice: http://www.sirsproducts.com/page3.html



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 



------

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: Wet Compass

The DAR for N256H would not sign us off without a normal compass.  He said

the FAR's require one.  I don't know anything beyond that because I haven't

read them, but that might just have been one of his pet things, which each

DAR seems to have.



Do not archive



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



--

av8or(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: Wet Compass

Doesn't have to be a "wet" compass; only a  magnetic one and for the money of the one mentioned below you can also put in a  vertical compass card to make it easier to read because it's more like a DG  you're use to, plus it's dampened.

  

 http://www.pai700.com/index.html

 http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/vertcard_compass1.php

 http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/importvc_compass.php

 http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/sirs_compass2.php

  

 John Lenhardt

 #40262

 Roanoke, VA

  

 [quote]   ---

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: Wet Compass

Just thinking out loud here, but why wouldn't a little wet compass from Wal-Mart (or anywhere else) fit the bill???  You know, the little ones to suction-cup to your windshield???

 Linn

 definitely do not archive!

 

 John Lenhardt wrote:

 [quote]            Doesn't have to be a "wet" compass; only a magnetic one and for the money of the one mentioned below you can also put in a vertical compass card to make it easier to read because it's more like a DG you're use to, plus it's dampened.

    

   http://www.pai700.com/index.html

   http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/vertcard_compass1.php

   http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/importvc_compass.php

   http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/sirs_compass2.php

    

   John Lenhardt

   #40262

   Roanoke, VA

    

   [quote]     ----- Original Message ----- 

     From:     William Curtis (wcurtis(at)nerv10.com) 

     To:     rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

     Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:24 PM

     Subject: re: Wet Compass

     

     

 --> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com (wcurtis(at)nerv10.com)>

     

 Even though you primary EFIS with magnetometer or backup Dynon may meet the requirement of a "Magnetic Direction indicator" in FAR 91.205 b(3), why not put one in for when the crap hits the fan.  I've seen Dynon's "lose their minds."  Look to the certified airframe manufactures, even the G1000/Avidyne equipped airplanes include the basic "round gauge" backups.  They are cheap, they are proven.  This is just my personal opinion but the idea of backing up one piece of experimental avionics with another would make me uncomfortable with anything but VFR flight.

     

 The SIRs Navigator compass is especially nice: http://www.sirsproducts.com/page3.html

     

 William

     http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/     

     

 ------

brinker(at)suddenlink.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: Wet Compass

That may very  well work. I have one of the dash mount ones (accual aviation not from Walmart)  that I plan to install with a quick release bracket. Can carry it in the plane  and install at any time if ramp checked or if needed.

  

 Randy

  

 [quote]   ---

AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:58 am Post subject: Wet Compass - When the rubber meets the road

I am migrating to the RV10 from a Cessna 182. I have owned two previous planes, and installed in both the PAI vertical card compass and plan to do so in this plane also. It is a superbly reliable and simple instrument - cost $300. I would not fly without it. I had a total electrical failure in my 182 over the desert of Nevada (CAVU conditions). My 182 had a vacuum system gyro and DG.



I can assure you that it would be a lot easier to just fly the reciprocal of your course after a TEF in the RV10 with a PAI. I would not own an airplane without one. Just for kicks try flying away from a strange airport for 15-20 mikes then try to get back to that airport with a Wal_Mart compass.... gooood luck

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

dmasys(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: Wet Compass

I also had a PAI vertical card compass in my C182 and occasionally even looked at it .  The total electrical failure scenario has a much more elegant and useful antidote these days than a whiskey compass, and that is a Garmin 396/496, which automatically switches over to its internal battery (thereby immediately alerting you that you have an electrical system failure), while giving you a full navigation and situational awareness display (including weather if you have that setup), and if needed a little GPS derived six pack of instruments to replace the ones that are now spinning down due to no juice.  This is why my RV-10 panel has a panel mounted GPS396 immediately next to the dual GRT EFIS displays.  A wonderful little save-your-bacon backup.



-Dan Masys

RV-10 N104LD - registration just received from the FAA yesterday!

RV-7A N747DL



---- AirMike <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I am migrating to the RV10 from a Cessna 182. I have owned two previous planes, and installed in both the PAI vertical card compass and plan to do so in this plane also. It is a superbly reliable and simple instrument - cost $300. I would not fly without it. I had a total electrical failure in my 182 over the desert of Nevada (CAVU conditions). My 182 had a vacuum system gyro and DG.

 

 I can assure you that it would be a lot easier to just fly the reciprocal of your course after a TEF in the RV10 with a PAI. I would not own an airplane without one. Just for kicks try flying away from a strange airport for 15-20 mikes then try to get back to that airport with a Wal_Mart compass.... gooood luck

 

 --------

 OSH '08 or Bust

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117440#117440

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: Wet Compass

Dan, congratulations on the FAA registration.

That was sort of my question, if I have a full glass primary set up (G900X PFD/MFD) with a dual battery system AND a Dynon 100 tied into my dual battery system PLUS the Dynon internal battery = 3 batteries. (belt, suspenders and another belt) Do I need a wet compass?



Robin

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: Wet Compass

William

One thing to realize is that the glass in the new airplanes are not the

primary instruments, rather the old round gauges are the primary and the

glass instruments are the secondary. Counter intuitive I know, but still

is.

Dan

N289DT RV10E E 



--

dmasys(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: Wet Compass

Hi Robin,



FAR 91.205 says aircraft with standard airworthiness certificates need to have a "magnetic direction indicator" for both VFR and IFR flight.  Although one might argue 91.205 doesn't apply to experimental aircraft, the simple fact is that you will be at the mercy of the DAR who does your final inspection, and my guess is probably the majority of DARs will have the same expectation for homebuilts and standard aircraft, especially because most of us are building our -10's for a cross country mission profile that looks like what folks use Cessna's, Pipers and Mooneys for.  



So putting a whiskey (or equivalent vertical card) compass in the panel or somewhere in the pilot's sight  sure seems prudent  to me.  (Forgot to mention I do have a wet compass in the panel in addition to all of the fine electronic toys)



(Just got my EAA paperwork approving my application to be a Technical Counselor, so I need to be clear about when something is just an opinion vs. a real fact.  This posting is just an opinion since I don't frankly know in detail how all of the regs on this particular issue reference one another.  So much to learn...)



-Dan Masys



---- Robin Marks <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Dan, congratulations on the FAA registration.

 That was sort of my question, if I have a full glass primary set up (G900X PFD/MFD) with a dual battery system AND a Dynon 100 tied into my dual battery system PLUS the Dynon internal battery = 3 batteries. (belt, suspenders and another belt) Do I need a wet compass?

 

 Robin

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: Wet Compass

Should be no argument about part 91 applying to experimentals.  ALL of FAR part 91 applies to experimentals, it's the part 23 that does not.  As another message indicated, for the certified aircraft with glass panels, the steam gauges are primary and the EFIS are secondary.  They must have good reason for doing this and unless one has data showing otherwise, I'd follow their model.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 



------

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: Wet Compass

In a message dated 6/8/2007 12:19:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robin1(at)mrmoisture.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  My questions is am I REQUIRED to have a wet compass? 



Robin 	


 Robin,

  

 I've seen what a few folks have written and I'm not so sure they are correct...if you look at the FAR/AIM 91.203/91.205...it talks about "civil" aircraft not certificate aircraft...so then one needs to figure out what a civil aircraft is..I'm guessing the the FAA is refering to an aircraft as defined on Page 1 of Part 1 which defines aircraft as "Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air..."

  

 That seems to catch all things that go or intend to go aloft...thus you'll be required to meet the 91.205 (b) (items 1-17 for day VFR) and (c) (items 1-6 for night VFR)...by the way...item (b) (3) is a "Magnetic direction indicator"--it does not say wet compass or vertical card etc...but just that you are required to have a MDI so I'd guess that the WalMart or Boy Scouts of America brand compass would quality for this requirement.  The same as your watch qualifies for a timing device for IFR flight, you are not required to have a fancy timing device on the panel, a simple watch that can count seconds will qualify for this device.  

  

 If your DAR indicated that you are not required to have an MDI, I wonder what regulation he's working from?  I'm not sure on this but I think if you have a plane built before 1920???--when the Civil Aeronautics Broad formed then there is not a requirement for the basic ol' 6 pack of VFR instruments.  

  

 I own a part of a 1940-1 built Piper and only the basic 6 pack of instruments are required...and we have a wet compass as this was part of the original equipment list.  

  

 I'm not an expert or an FAA lawyer, but I guess that you are required to have some type of back up magnetic compass beyond an electronic navigation system whether you are experimental or certified aircraft, VFR or IFR...as the list get gets longer as one moves from VFR to IFR whether one is certified or experimental.  

  

 If I was installing a MDI (magnetic direction indicator--better know to us as a compass), I'd install the vertical card compass, having flown on them for years they are a pretty good item to have almost like having a back up to the Heading Indicator (DG)...the VCC has very little lead, dip errors or lag in attitude and direction changes.

  

 These regulations are written for a whole range of flight craft from commercial down to what ever qualifies as "aircraft".  

  

 Patrick

  

 do not archive...



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

KiloPapa

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Pearblossom, CA

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: Wet Compass

Curtis,



See page 65 of the June issue of Sport Aviation and the

reply by Tech Counselor Sam Buchanan for another take on the

application of Part 91 to aircraft with Experimental

Operating Limitations.



Kevin

40494

[quote]

<wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>



Should be no argument about part 91 applying to

experimentals.  ALL of FAR part 91 applies to experimentals

, it's the part 23 that does not.  As another message

indicated, for the certified aircraft with glass panels,

the steam gauges are primary and the EFIS are secondary. 

They must have good reason for doing this and unless one

has data showing otherwise, I'd follow their model.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 



------

_________________
Kevin
40494

do not archive

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: Wet Compass

FAR Part 91 -General operating and Flight rules; this deals with operation of personal aircraft in the airspace system and since there is no "experimental" airspace, I'm not sure how it would NOT apply to experimentals.  I have to read the article to see what his take on it is.



One has only to look at FAR 91.1 & 91.101 - Applicability, to determine that ALL except balloons & rockets (part 101) and ultralights (part 103) are covered by it.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 



------

dmasys(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: Wet Compass

I think it was my post to blame for getting this started.  The reason I mentioned the question about applicability is that the FAR section on instruments (91.205) is entitled:



 "Powered civil aircraft with **standard category US airworthiness certificates**:  [emphasis added] Instrument and equipment requirements."



You be the judge, pay your money and take your chances with the DAR...



-Dan Masys

#40448



---- William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 FAR Part 91 -General operating and Flight rules; this deals with operation of personal aircraft in the airspace system and since there is no "experimental" airspace, I'm not sure how it would NOT apply to experimentals.  I have to read the article to see what his take on it is.

jason(at)ellingson.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: Wet Compass

When I asked this, I was given:



FAA Order 8130.2F (AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATION OF AIRCRAFT AND RELATED

PRODUCTS)



This is what they use to issue Experimental Airworthiness

certificates...



All over it... Whether LSA experimental, Standard Experimental, R&D,

de-militarized, or whatever... Unless you are still in phase I of test

flight, or have an approved exception, you must equip your plane by FAR

19.205 standards for VFR or IFR (whichever you intend to do).



- Jason (thinking about building an RV-10... Own an Ercoupe right now)

--

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: Wet Compass

Dan,

	I actually think I started this discussion as my panel will have dual independent EFIS and three sets of batteries. Why would I need a wet compass? Seems from my reading of the discussion the DAR has final say on certification but the FAR seems to require one. I figure I will put one in (my only round instrument on the panel) and live it and call it my Back Up  to the third power. No reason to give an insurance company a reason to deny a claim.



William

	Speaking of balloons & rockets (part 101) and ultralights, I was flying my usual commute today (SBP-BUR-SBP) and came across a large bouquet of balloons at 6,200'. Another one at 6,800' and one more on my return trip at 4,000. Seems graduation is in full swing. 



Robin

--

brinker(at)suddenlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject: Wet Compass

If your like me and don't wan't any more permanent 

clutter on you dash or panel, just make provision for a quick disconnect 

dash mounted compass. And keep the compass close at hand for emergency 

installs. Is there a far anywhere that says this is not acceptable ?



Randy



---

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: Wet Compass

If a compass isn't permanently mounted, I know of no way it can be

properly "swung" or calibrated. There is no way a temporary mount

compass will have any know degree of accuracy. Of course if you don't

intend to have a proper aviation compass and choose to assume your

electronics will always function correctly, I guess you can pretend to

comply with 91.205.   With all the choices available for mounting, in

panel, on top of panel, on center post, etc. I don't quite understand

the extreme aversion to meeting the basic instrument requirements.

The B707 (IIRC) had an elegant arrangement with the compass on a

swivel mount, folding under the glare shield when not needed, pivoting

out to top center of the glare shield when desired.



On 6/16/07, Randy <brinker(at)suddenlink.net> wrote:

[quote] 



                         If your like me and don't wan't any more permanent

 clutter on you dash or panel, just make provision for a quick disconnect

 dash mounted compass. And keep the compass close at hand for emergency

 installs. Is there a far anywhere that says this is not acceptable ?



 Randy



 ---

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