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Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

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davyken(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

Hi all,  

   

I have a Kitfox Classic IV with a Rotax 912 UL engine.  I’ve started the engine and run it a few times and now I’ve noticed something I don’t care for.  The water pump for the cooling system is on the bottom aft end of the engine.  Lines come out of the pump and run up to the cylinders.  The line that comes out of the port side of the water pump runs directly toward one of the exhaust pipes.  That line needs to make a 90 degree bend on the way to the cylinders.  The exit from the pump is so close to the exhaust pipe I don’t see a way of running it without the line pressing against the exhaust system.  I’m wondering what other builders on the list have done to avoid this conflict.    

   

Thanks for your advice,  

Ken Davy  

Kitfox Classic IV N1701S  

Rotax 912  

   

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wingsdown(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

The  picture looks like it is actually laying against the pipe. Is that true? If  so  looks like a might poor design by rotax. Perhaps the line needs a   45 degree elbow so you can turn it and route the line away from the pipe. Over  time that coolant line is going to fail.  Personally I never cared for  hose type clamps on aircraft. Converted mine to fittings. Lots of work but many  advantages. I used hard line where possible and braided Teflon else where.   If you must stick with regular hose and clamps might take a look at silicon  hose. You can get different sizes, lengths and pre-molded  bends.

  

 Rick

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temco(at)telusplanet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:38 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

Ken  

   

My mind is a bit fuzzy but I do recall having to replace fitting under the engine with ones which had different angles to probably avoid what is happening to you coolant line. Perhaps some one else remembers this. The fittings came from Skystar. The original ones in the engine had to be heated to break the thread sealer. My engine was purchased separately. John McBean would know the answer to this.  

   

Ted Palamarek  

Edmonton  

IV-1200 912UL  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick

 Sent: June 13, 2007 7:58 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue  

  

     

The picture looks like it is actually laying against the pipe. Is that true? If so  looks like a might poor design by rotax. Perhaps the line needs a  45 degree elbow so you can turn it and route the line away from the pipe. Over time that coolant line is going to fail.  Personally I never cared for hose type clamps on aircraft. Converted mine to fittings. Lots of work but many advantages. I used hard line where possible and braided Teflon else where.  If you must stick with regular hose and clamps might take a look at silicon hose. You can get different sizes, lengths and pre-molded bends.  

    

   

    

Rick  

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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

Ken,



Looking at my installation, I routed that particular line to the forward 

cylinder as in the attached photo.  The line to the aft cylinder was the 

upper line from the pump spider.  In further looking at your picture, I 

guess I don't understand what that line is going to.  All the upper cylinder 

coolant lines terminate at the Spider tank and the lower lines run from the 

pump.  What fitting does that line run to?



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp

1998 850 hrs.

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av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

Ken,

  

 I agree with you completely.  Rotax should have  engineered that better than they did.  But unfortunately we have to deal  with it now.  

  

 First things first - do not fly your airplane with the  hose as shown in the picture you sent.  You are destined to experiencing an  engine failure as it is, so you need to change it as soon as  possible.

  

 I heard converting to a metal line will not work long term  due to vibration fatigue on the line, so what I did was installed high temp  resistant silicone hose (napa as I recall had it), and then covered that with a  heat and flame resistant sheathing like they use on race cars (also available  from an auto parts store). It is made to fit right over the hose, and is  typically silver in color.  But even after doing all that I made sure the  hose didn't touch any of the exhaust, using hose clamps and tie wraps to keep it  away.   As a final measure, I wrapped the exhaust pipes themselves  with race car "header wrap" (also available at auto parts stores).  Doing  all this provided three separate measures of protecting against melting of the  hoses.  

 Might sound like overkilll, but if that coolant hose burns  through, you will quickly lose all your coolant.  I've been told a 912 will  get you back to the airport without coolant, but it is going to be expensive to  fix once you get home as you will probably have lots of engine warping damage.  

  

 I would also make a point to handle the oil cooler hoses  similarly. Mine were very close to the front exhaust pipe, so it is a potential  problem as well. In fact it is worse.  You probably won't make it back to  the airport without oil....

  

 (I don't have any pictures of my hose installation,  but can take some if you need)

  

 Paul Seehafer

 Model IV-1200 912 ul Amphib

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kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

I pulled the cowling this morning and looked at mine. Now is this line going to the front cylinder on that side. If so, pull the hose and route it direct to the fitting at the cylinder, meaning go on the other side of the mount(lower part of mount and tubing, don't go over the top), mine does this and clears the exhaust by 1/4 inch.

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:38 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

I remember just heating my fittings with a heat gun and turning them to better place the hose then wrapping them and the exhaust.  

   

John Oakley  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Palamarek

 Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 8:38 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue  

  

   

Ken  

   

My mind is a bit fuzzy but I do recall having to replace fitting under the engine with ones which had different angles to probably avoid what is happening to you coolant line. Perhaps some one else remembers this. The fittings came from Skystar. The original ones in the engine had to be heated to break the thread sealer. My engine was purchased separately. John McBean would know the answer to this.  

   

Ted Palamarek  

Edmonton  

IV-1200 912UL  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick

 Sent: June 13, 2007 7:58 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue  

  

     

The picture looks like it is actually laying against the pipe. Is that true? If so  looks like a might poor design by rotax. Perhaps the line needs a  45 degree elbow so you can turn it and route the line away from the pipe. Over time that coolant line is going to fail.  Personally I never cared for hose type clamps on aircraft. Converted mine to fittings. Lots of work but many advantages. I used hard line where possible and braided Teflon else where.  If you must stick with regular hose and clamps might take a look at silicon hose. You can get different sizes, lengths and pre-molded bends.  

    

   

    

Rick  

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

Lowell:



I notice you also have RTV (Red) on your rear muffler spring buy not on the

front one.  I noticed the same thing on Ken's picture this morning but yours

has the RTV on only one spring.  I have being trying to figure out the

reason for this RTV.  It can't possibly to make the springs quiet because

you couldn't possibly hear the springs over the noise of the engine.



Still curious.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

putting sili on the springs are suppose to be fore keeping vibration from breaking the springs.  At least that is what I was told when I ran snowmobiles.  Thing is they rust and break, even if it had sili on them.  So I quite doing it.  Mine broke and I wanted to fly, so I brought out the wire and safety wired my mufflers on, no problems sense.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

Noel,



I have it on both,  It is on the back side of one - out of view.  Regarding 

rust.  I hope to never see it in the engine compartment of my IV.



Lowell



---

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

sorry to say the springs are the first to get the rust.  nice note, the safety wire isn't rusting, doing just fine with about 350hrs in the location on the pics in this thread. also I have no other rust, just the springs.

iworonko(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

Noel,

the RTV has nothing to do with noise or vibration or keeping the springs 

from breaking. The fact is that exhaust springs will eventually break. The 

RTV is there to keep the pieces together and from going who knows where. 

This RTV trick is a must on pusher aircraft to keep the spring pieces from 

going through the prop and damaging it.

Eric

barry(at)pgtc.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

I don't have quite as bad a problem as you but  I applied a lot of heat shield of stainless steel to protect hoses from the  exhaust pipes.  I do not recommend wrapping exhaust pipes, it will  defnitely make them fail sooner.

  

 Barry West

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

Thanks Lowell:



Ken has since sent me a note  informing me that the RTV is supposed to protect and increase the life of the  spring...  I haven't had any problems with my springs but I may give it a  try any way. I can't remember commenting on rust but I  agree... a plane is one of the worst places to find that stuff!

 

 

[img]cid:923341100(at)14062007-2CCF[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 

 Do not archive

 

 

 

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

davyken(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:18 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Plumbing Issue

Hi All,  

   

Thanks for the replies and the advice.  I get the list as a digest so I saw them all at once.  The digest strips off attached photos so for those that were kind enough to send pictures of their 912’s, I didn’t actually see them.  Lowell, would you mind sending me a copy of your photo directly to my personal email?  

   

Rick: The picture looks like it is actually laying against the pipe. Is that true?  

   

Yes.  It rests right against the pipe.  I’ve only run the engine a few times and I’m already seeing a scorched spot on the radiator hose.  It’s one of those things that you look at a hundred times and don’t really see.    

   

Perhaps the line needs a 45 degree elbow so you can turn it and route the line away from the pipe.  

   

That’s what I was kind of thinking at first.  The current fitting comes straight out of the engine pointed right at the exhaust pipe only a couple of inches away.  Ted suggested I contact John McBean to see if Skystar has the proper fitting.  If Mike’s suggestion below doesn’t work, I’ll give John a call  

   

Lowell What fitting does that line run to?  

   

It runs to the bottom of the front port cylinder.  

   

Paul: First things first - do not fly your airplane with the hose as shown in   

the picture you sent.  

   

I’ve only run the engine a few times.  I’m still getting ready for the airworthiness inspection.  It hasn’t flown yet.  

   

What I did was installed high temp resistant silicone hose (napa as I recall had it), and then covered that with a heat and flame resistant sheathing like they use on race cars   

(also available from an auto parts store).  

   

Sounds like good advice anyway.  I’ve looked at replacement oil hoses for the Rotax.  Off course they’re an odd size.  I think Lockwood has oil and radiator hose that are the exact size but cost quite a bit more.  Spruce has oil hose with an inner diameter that’s within a millimeter or two that’s a lot less.  I’m guessing that the NAPA silicone hose is not going to be an exact replacement either.  Close enough?  Will a tight hose clamp make a millimeter or two not worth worrying about?  

   

I've been told a 912 will get you back to the airport without coolant  

   

I’d really rather not find out.  

   

Mike: I pulled the cowling this morning and looked at mine. Now is this line going to the front cylinder on that side. If so, pull the hose and route it direct to the fitting at the cylinder, meaning go on the other side of the mount(lower part of mount and tubing, don't go over the top), mine does this and clears the exhaust by 1/4 inch.  

   

I’ll defiantly take a look at this when I’m at the airport tomorrow.  If I recall, I got just enough hose with the kit to barely make it.    

   

Thanks again everybody.  It’s all good advice.  

Ken Davy  

Kitfox Classic IV N1701S  

Rotax 912  

       [quote][b]

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