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First flight, test pilot, dual time

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phd1993

Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Overland Park, KS

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: First flight, test pilot, dual time

It would appear that my first real  challenge of building a CH701 has just started - I completed my Airworthiness  Certification last Friday - 6/29/2007, approximately 1 year after starting  assembly of the kit.  A phase I testing period of 5 hours has been included  as part of the Operating Limitations.  Using a "strict interpretation" of  this requirement this must be completed with only the pilot on  board.

  

 Additionally for insurance coverage (under an EAA  insurance program) only pilots with 2 or more logged hours specifically in  a Zenith STOL CH701 would be covered.  It would appear that  I am now in desperate need of:

  

 1.  Test pilot for first flight.

  

 2.  Test pilot for the 5-hour Phase I  flight testing.

  

 3.  Experienced pilot to provide 2 hours of  dual instruction.  The insurance underwriter had initially indicated this  pilot needed to be a CFI but after pushing back they acknowledged that finding a  CFI in Western Missouri/Eastern Kansas with CH701 experience would be next to  impossible so they relented and will allow any pilot with 2 or more CH701  experience to provide "dual time".

  

 Only "named pilots" would be covered, therefore I  would need to be able to provide the insurance underwriter/agency with any  pilots name, address, and appropriate Zenith STOL CH701 flight history.   The plane is currently located in Harrisonville MO (KLRY)

  

 If you can be of help, or know someone in the  Midwest that might be able to help please contact me off-line at:

  

 samhutcheson(at)kc.rr.com (samhutcheson(at)kc.rr.com) 

 913-268-6840 or 913-238-3807

 3717 W 155th St.  Overland Park, KS   66224

  

 Thanks,

  

 Sammy J Hutcheson

 Zenith STOL CH701

 N6412Z

  

   [quote][b]

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject: First flight, test pilot, dual time

Hi Sam,

It'd seem easier to find a good pilot with insurance, CFI if possible, 

with a willingness to put 2 - 4 hours on your plane and then get dual 

time so that your insurers will cover you from that point.  You're not 

likely to have serious problems if you've done

your homework and it sounds like you have.  Otherwise, the logistics are 

awkward, but worst case, have a look at the 701 map to find the nearest 

701 flying.



Larry McFarland  601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



Harrison-Hutcheson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   It would appear that my first real challenge of building a CH701 has 

 just started - I completed my Airworthiness Certification last Friday 

 - 6/29/2007, approximately 1 year after starting assembly of the kit.  

 A phase I testing period of 5 hours has been included as part of the 

 Operating Limitations.  Using a "strict interpretation" of this 

 requirement this must be completed with only the pilot on board.

  

 Additionally for insurance coverage (under an EAA insurance program) 

 only pilots with 2 or more logged hours specifically in a 

 Zenith STOL CH701 would be covered.  It would appear that I am now in 

 desperate need of:

  

 1.  Test pilot for first flight.

  

 2.  Test pilot for the 5-hour Phase I flight testing.

  

 3.  Experienced pilot to provide 2 hours of dual instruction.  The 

 insurance underwriter had initially indicated this pilot needed to be 

 a CFI but after pushing back they acknowledged that finding a CFI in 

 Western Missouri/Eastern Kansas with CH701 experience would be next to 

 impossible so they relented and will allow any pilot with 2 or more 

 CH701 experience to provide "dual time".

  

 Only "named pilots" would be covered, therefore I would need to be 

 able to provide the insurance underwriter/agency with any pilots name, 

 address, and appropriate Zenith STOL CH701 flight history.  The plane 

 is currently located in Harrisonville MO (KLRY)

  

 If you can be of help, or know someone in the Midwest that might be 

 able to help please contact me off-line at:

  

 samhutcheson(at)kc.rr.com <mailto:samhutcheson(at)kc.rr.com>

 913-268-6840 or 913-238-3807

 3717 W 155th St.  Overland Park, KS  66224

  

 Thanks,

  

 Sammy J Hutcheson

 Zenith STOL CH701

 N6412Z

  

 *



 *

rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject: First flight, test pilot, dual time

Harrison,

      I am insured with Skysmith  and after checking with several insurance companies including the one EAA  recommends, I found them to be the cheapest.  They will sell you full  coverage which I would recommend and cancel all but libility when you have  learned to fly your aircraft.  This way if you break something learning,  you will be covered.  Here is their URL http://www.skysmith.com/   They  have an 800 number shown on the web site and there is also a form for pilot  history and an application

  

 Tracy Stone

 Harker Heights, Tx

 ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300

 [quote]   ---

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: First flight, test pilot, dual time

Sammy, Congratulations on getting to the point  where you are. How did you get a 5 Hr Phase 1? 

  

  

  

 In a message dated 7/5/2007 6:06:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  samhutcheson(at)kc.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     It would appear that my first real    challenge of building a CH701 has just started - I completed my Airworthiness    Certification last Friday - 6/29/2007, approximately 1 year after starting    assembly of the kit.  A phase I testing period of 5 hours has been    included as part of the Operating Limitations.  Using a "strict    interpretation" of this requirement this must be completed with only the    pilot on board.

    

   Additionally for insurance coverage (under an EAA    insurance program) only pilots with 2 or more logged hours specifically    in a Zenith STOL CH701 would be covered.  It would appear that    I am now in desperate need of:

    

   1.  Test pilot for first    flight.Go to the factory in Mexico, Mo and get in    a couple of hours with Roger. 

    

   2.  Test pilot for the 5-hour Phase I    flight testing.Once you have some time in under    your belt and feel comfortable flying the plane, do your own Phase 1 flying.    Are you current? Have you been flying at all recently? Get yourself up to    speed before you fly on your own.

    

   3.  Experienced pilot to provide 2 hours of    dual instruction.  The insurance underwriter had initially indicated this    pilot needed to be a CFI but after pushing back they acknowledged that finding    a CFI in Western Missouri/Eastern Kansas with CH701 experience would be next    to impossible so they relented and will allow any pilot with 2 or more CH701    experience to provide "dual time".Do this with    Roger at Mexico, MO  This is what I did.

    

   Only "named pilots" would be covered, therefore I    would need to be able to provide the insurance underwriter/agency with any    pilots name, address, and appropriate Zenith STOL CH701 flight history.     The plane is currently located in Harrisonville MO (KLRY) I have the same insurance and they accepted my time with Roger.    Good luck.

	
 Bob Spudis  N701ZX   CH-701   112hrs

  	  Quote: 	
		      

   If you can be of help, or know someone in the    Midwest that might be able to help please contact me off-line at:

    

   samhutcheson(at)kc.rr.com (samhutcheson(at)kc.rr.com) 

   913-268-6840 or 913-238-3807

   3717 W 155th St.  Overland Park, KS     66224

    

   Thanks,

    

   Sammy J Hutcheson

   Zenith STOL CH701

   N6412Z

	
 

  



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

phd1993

Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Overland Park, KS

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: First flight, test pilot, dual time

I thought the entire email list might derive some benefit from my answer to the 5- versus 40-hour Phase I question.  I registered the airplane as Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) instead of Experimental Amateur Built (E-AB).  The E-AB registration would have required the 40 hour Phase I flight testing but would have allowed me to perform annual condition inspections.  As E-LSA I needed to take the special 16-hour FAA approved course to allow me to perform annual condition inspections ON ANY E-LSA that I currently own or own in the future.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: First flight, test pilot, dual time

This is probably going to upset some folks but, it is my personal feeling that the 5-hour E-LSA Phase 1 is a huge mistake that will come back to haunt the entire LSA program. 5 hours is not nearly enough time to test a 601XL or any other aircraft like it before unrestricted flight.



 	  phd1993 wrote: 	
		  I thought the entire email list might derive some benefit from my answer to the 5- versus 40-hour Phase I question.  I registered the airplane as Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) instead of Experimental Amateur Built (E-AB).  The E-AB registration would have required the 40 hour Phase I flight testing but would have allowed me to perform annual condition inspections.  As E-LSA I needed to take the special 16-hour FAA approved course to allow me to perform annual condition inspections ON ANY E-LSA that I currently own or own in the future.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

zodiacjeff(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: First flight, test pilot, dual time

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> This is probably going to upset some folks but, it is my personal feeling  that

the 5-hour E-LSA Phase 1 is a huge mistake that will come back to haunt  the entire

LSA program. 5 hours is not nearly enough time to test a 601XL or  any other

aircraft like it before unrestricted flight.



 +++ Would say I agree wholeheartedly knowing that many will disagree.   One other point: the a/c that Phil describes is an HDS.  Can an older HD or  HDS be registered as an E-LSA as, to my knowledge, Zenith has not sought  approval of the kit in that category? 

  

 Bryan M., you have a good command of the whole LSA/SP thing, what is your  take on this?

  

 SWE Area 41   jeff

  

 do not archive



phd1993 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I thought the entire email  list might derive some benefit from my answer to the

5- versus 40-hour Phase  I question.  I registered the airplane as Experimental
	


Light Sport  Aircraft (E-LSA) instead of Experimental Amateur Built (E-AB).

The E-AB  registration would have required the 40 hour Phase I flight testing

but would  have allowed me to perform annual condition inspections.  As E-LSA

I  needed to take the special 16-hour FAA approved course to allow me to  perform

annual condition inspections ON ANY E-LSA that I currently own or own  in the

future.

   [quote][b]

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: First flight, test pilot, dual time

Hi Gig,



Please keep in mind that the 5 hour test minimum is just that -- a 

minimum.  It is up to the builder to make sure he does sufficient 

testing even in the face of freedom from government restriction.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive



At 08:04 PM 7/8/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  This is probably going to upset some folks but, it is my personal 

feeling that the 5-hour E-LSA Phase 1 is a huge mistake that will 

come back to haunt the entire LSA program. 5 hours is not nearly 

enough time to test a 601XL or any other aircraft like it before 

unrestricted flight.

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: First flight, test pilot, dual time

At 09:04 PM 7/8/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Can an older HD or HDS be registered as an E-LSA as, to my 

knowledge, Zenith has not sought approval of the kit in that category?


	




I think this is an example of the special E-LSA certificate 

originally designed for "Fat Ultralights".  The way the regulation 

was written it can be applied to any LSA compatible airplane that 

doesn't meet the limits for an Ultralight.  This all goes away after 

January 31, 2008, so there is not any risk of a long term impact for 

this phase 1 test limit.



On the other hand, I have not heard anything about the phase 1 test 

requirements for the normal E-LSA.  Since these airplanes will be 

virtually identical to "Certified" S-LSA planes that require no 

testing limitation it may be that 5 hours is a typical limit.



Paul

XL fuselage

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: Re: First flight, test pilot, dual time

Paul, I'm well aware that this is just a minimum. I'm also aware that this "loop hole" may or may not be reduced in 2008. I'm very concerned though that there are a lot of people out there that will do "the minimum."



Five hours is simply not enough time to shake the bugs out of an amateur built aircraft. All it takes is a look at how the US government has responded to perceived problems in the past to imagine how a wave of newly minted E-LSA failing will cause a backlash against the entire LSA program.



To add to the problem these E-LSAs that are being cleared out of Phase 1 after 5 hours can be used for training if I'm not mistaken.



This may be a case where we were given just enough rope to hang ourselves.

 	  p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att wrote: 	
		  Hi Gig,



Please keep in mind that the 5 hour test minimum is just that -- a 

minimum.  It is up to the builder to make sure he does sufficient 

testing even in the face of freedom from government restriction.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive



At 08:04 PM 7/8/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  This is probably going to upset some folks but, it is my personal 

feeling that the 5-hour E-LSA Phase 1 is a huge mistake that will 

come back to haunt the entire LSA program. 5 hours is not nearly 

enough time to test a 601XL or any other aircraft like it before 

unrestricted flight.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: First flight, test pilot, dual time

I agree, I think that it is  foolish.

  

  

 In a message dated 7/8/2007 11:05:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

This    is probably going to upset some folks but, it is my personal feeling that the    5-hour E-LSA Phase 1 is a huge mistake that will come back to haunt the entire    LSA program. 5 hours is not nearly enough time to test a 601XL or any other    aircraft like it before unrestricted flight.



	


 

  



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

kensmith(at)springnet1.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: First flight, test pilot, dual time

This 5 hour flyoff was origionally designed for registering and certifying illegal "Fat Ultralights" by January

 31st, 2008. If these are not certified by then they will be ready for the scrape pile. Most all of these 

 aircraft are now flying and have been for some time. It is an insult to them and would be an insult to you 

 to ask you and your present flying 601XL to get certified and fly off a 5 hour period. It just so happened

 that larger present A/B (meeting light sport critera) aircraft fell into this guide-line of ESLA before 1-31-08.

 

 NYTerminat(at)aol.com (NYTerminat(at)aol.com) wrote:

 [quote]               I agree, I think that it is foolish.

    

    

   In a message dated 7/8/2007 11:05:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net (wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net) writes:

    	  Quote: 	
		  

 This is probably going to upset some folks but, it is my personal feeling that the 5-hour E-LSA Phase 1 is a huge mistake that will come back to haunt the entire LSA program. 5 hours is not nearly enough time to test a 601XL or any other aircraft like it before unrestricted flight.

     

     	
   

    

   

   

   

      See what's free at AOL.com.   

    	  Quote: 	
		  

	
 [b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: First flight, test pilot, dual time

There are three ways to get an E-LSA airworthiness certificate.



1. A manufacturer builds and certificates an S-LSA and then offers E-

LSA kits based on this prototype. These E-LSA kits must be built exactly 

according to the plans with no deviations. As far as I know, this option 

is not available for any Zenith aircraft yet.



2. An S-LSA can be converted to E-LSA status. This could be done with an 

AMD built S-LSA CH601XL.



3. Any aircraft that meets the definition of LSA but does not meet the 

legal definition of Ultralight and has never had an airworthiness 

certificate issued for it can be registered as an E-LSA under the so 

called "fat ultralight" rule. This is the rule that allows Zenith 

aircraft kits to be registered as E-LSAs. This option expires on January 

31, 2008.



The five hour test period is probably reasonable for the first two 

options or for a factory built "fat ultralight" that has already been 

flying for some time. It is probably not reasonable to expect a five 

hour test period to be sufficient for an amateur built kit plane with 

the usual builder modifications.



Jeff Small wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   This is probably going to upset some folks but, it is my personal 

 feeling that

 the 5-hour E-LSA Phase 1 is a huge mistake that will come back to haunt 

 the entire

 LSA program. 5 hours is not nearly enough time to test a 601XL or any other

 aircraft like it before unrestricted flight.

 +++ Would say I agree wholeheartedly knowing that many will disagree.  

 One other point: the a/c that Phil describes is an HDS.  Can an older HD 

 or HDS be registered as an E-LSA as, to my knowledge, Zenith has not 

 sought approval of the kit in that category?

  

 Bryan M., you have a good command of the whole LSA/SP thing, what is 

 your take on this?

  


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

Zenith 601XL N61BM

Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive

Do Not Archive

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: Re: First flight, test pilot, dual time

So after Jan 2008 it has to be registered as a S-LSA  then converted... how does this affect my ability to perform maintenance on it? Assuming I have taken the 16 hr class?

_________________
â€œAlways do what you are afraid to do.â€
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

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