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Z-19

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longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:17 pm Post subject: Z-19

I would like to hear from anyone who has implemented this diag

successfully. I am working on a Subaru with two batteries, one

alternator and two fuel pumps. I would like to hear about your could of

done, should of done, could do better next time etc. How many gotchas

are in the design and so on. Pictures would be great if you have them.



Some of us pilots are pessimists even before we wake up! 



Thanks,

Glenn

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: Z-19

Many others out there are going with Z-19 so please share your experiences with the list.  Bob can't improve things if he doesn't know about it!



Michael Sausen

-10 #352 Limbo



--

Paul LeDoux

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject: Z-19

I am going with the Z-19 Rear batteries in an RV-8 with the 2.5 SC engine  with Supercharger.

 My question is why not be able to operate the second Fuel Pump  from either battery?

 Seems like it would give another option for keeping the fuel flowing. Mine  will be wired this way.

 Thanks to Bob N. for all he does.

 Paul

  



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: Z-19

Hi Glenn,

I don't know about the diagram number, but your items match mine and I 

did wire things

very closely to the AeroElectric diagrams.  Absolutely no problems so 

far, but for

one early on, not having a contactor replacing my internal starter relay 

power.

The link below perhaps offers a different schematic view.

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring.gif

Lots of images on the engine page and electrical page

Good luck,



Larry McFarland 601HDS - Subaru power, one alternator and 4 fuel pumps

at www.macsmachine.com

longg(at)pjm.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I would like to hear from anyone who has implemented this diag

 successfully. I am working on a Subaru with two batteries, one

 alternator and two fuel pumps. I would like to hear about your could of

 done, should of done, could do better next time etc. How many gotchas

 are in the design and so on. Pictures would be great if you have them.



 Some of us pilots are pessimists even before we wake up! 



 Thanks,

 Glenn

mikefapex

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Colorado

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Z-19

I have a Z-19 switches usage clarification question. I am planning for this design in a GEO/Suzuki powered aircraft.



I read the Z-19 diagram last night, I think I understand most of it.

The switches I've tried to

match them with their location on the diagram, and I think I've done

that. What I am not sure of is: which switches are used at aircraft

startup and/or flying?  And is there more done with switches once the

engine is running?



I labeled the switches from left to right, A - H



A - #2 Fuel Pump

B - Secondary Power

C - Primary Power

D - Start

E - E-Bus Alt Feed



F - DC Pwr Master/Bat/Off - this is one I don't understand the purpose

of the three way position. When would you use what?



G - Alt Field  - is this a circuit breaker?  I did not find it on the

diagram. To be honest I'm not sure what 'Alternator Field' really means. Yes, I am an noob.



H - Eng Bat  Auto/On/Off - Again, not understanding the purpose of the

3 position switch.



My best guess for starting the aircraft would be the sequence: F to

Bat,  C on, B on, Start



Clarification on these and their use is appreciated. Thanks,



Mike

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: Z-19

Thanks Mike,

Agreed, I asked myself the same question when reading the diagram. I

would also like to see at least a dashed line showing the leads for the

two batteries. In a dual battery installation, the setup is not always

obvious. Thanks to others for their opinions and suggestions.



Glenn



--

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:36 pm Post subject: Z-19

Larry,

Great job on the Zodiac - what a huge amount of work! You've got some

heavy duty pitot plumbing there! As you said, I see a few variations on

Bob's theme, but a job well done. I cannot see the add'l fuel pumps on

this schematic? I would be interested to see how you laid the wiring out

for them. I'm assuming you are only running 1 at a time?



Thanks



--

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: Z-19

I hope not....At least 2 for Take off and landing.



Frank

Soobed Zodiac 400 hours sold

Lyc'd RV7a 170 hours



--

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: Z-19

Hi Glenn,

The pumps are labeled Aux L & Aux R on the switch diagrams right above 

the buses. 

The master (main bus) and boost (essential bus) are both run on takeoff 

and plumbed in parallel.  The Aux L and Aux R

pumps (essential bus) are individually switched to pump from the wing 

tanks to the header as needed thru a fuel selector valve.

The labeled connections feeding back thru the console give away where 

they are going and they are all Facet 105

pumps at 5 or 7 amps.  The Aux pumps on the wing tanks are wired to a 

single 5 amp fuse in the main bus.  I've labeled the

pumps, but find that colored shrink wrap on the switch handles, yellow 

for main and boost and blue for aux pumps

helps find the right switches faster than trying to read small lettering 

with my progressive-lens glasses. Anything outside the

fuselage has a ground wire back to the forest-of-tabs ground on the 

firewall.  I never run more than one wing pump at a time.



Note: Header tank overflow was plumbed to drain at the right wing joint 

as I don't like fuel or fumes anywhere near the engine exhaust. It's not 

something perhaps you were concerned with just now, but I thought it 

worth noting.



You should be able to make out the pictorial arrangement for all that's 

there, sometimes not so obvious.

Thanks for the compliments.  It was a lot of work, but I miss it now and 

must progress to a next project.



Larry



longg(at)pjm.com wrote:

[quote] 



 Larry,

 Great job on the Zodiac - what a huge amount of work! You've got some

 heavy duty pitot plumbing there! As you said, I see a few variations on

 Bob's theme, but a job well done. I cannot see the add'l fuel pumps on

 this schematic? I would be interested to see how you laid the wiring out

 for them. I'm assuming you are only running 1 at a time?



 Thanks



 --

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: Z-19

At 06:52 PM 7/10/2007 -0400, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I am going with the Z-19 Rear batteries in an RV-8 with the 2.5 SC engine 

with Supercharger.

My question is why not be able to operate the second Fuel Pump from either 

battery?

Seems like it would give another option for keeping the fuel flowing. Mine 

will be wired this way.


	


   How many failures are you planning to stack? I've seen some

   airplanes wired where the owner was able to select backups

   to backups . . . the architecture offered a hose of variables

   for powering things up in case this failed, and then that failed

   too, etc.



   The probability of dual failures on any one tank of fuel is

   exceedingly low. Properly maintained RG batteries (when

   installed to accommodate relatively fragile lead posts)

   are exceedingly reliable. The failure mode effects analysis

   process is a deduction of all the what-if's but for our

   purposes, we don't need to go more than one layer deep.

   Given the quantum jump in alternator and battery reliability,

   you can comfortably assume that altenrator failure will be

   rare and both properly maintained batteries will be there

   when you need them.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks to Bob N. for all he does.


	


   My pleasure sir. I'm pleased that you find the efforts

   useful.



   Bob . . .

Paul LeDoux

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: Z-19

Thanks a million Bob, my days with the Saturn V moon rocket, triple module  redundancy, sometimes rears it's head. Think I will go with your original  diagram.

 Paul



Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL.com.

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:18 am Post subject: Z-19

At 08:39 PM 7/15/2007 -0400, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks a million Bob, my days with the Saturn V moon rocket, triple module 

redundancy, sometimes rears it's head. Think I will go with your original 

diagram.

Paul


	


  Understand. I have a client right now that believes it is

  better to have two position sensors for a flap system than

  just one. I'm trying to help him understand that if you can

  design your system to be tolerant of any single failure

  then one sensor by definition will suffice. If failure of

  the pilot to KNOW flap position at all times creates a

  strong potential for hazard, then you need THREE sensors

  and a validity evaluation system that compares all three

  data values, tosses out the one that is bad and annunciates

  the failure (cause we're now down to two . . . one more sensor

  crap and we're toast). Two sensors in a fail-proof approach

  is not sufficient.



  Figure Z-19 presupposes that all the things I think I understood

  about engine operations are true at the time I crafted the

  diagram. If some new condition or requirement comes along concerning

  these automotive conversions (or I mis-understood some feature

  that has always existed) then some shuffling of the switches

  and wires may be in order.



  So I hope that you nor anyone else here on the List believes

  that Z-19 or any other architecture is somehow sacred, golden,

  or guaranteed to please for ever and ever amen. It's ALWAYS

  good to question and to raise your own alarms should you

  perceive that common understanding of requirements has not yet

  been achieved.



  This is why I always query an individual about perceptions of

  shortfall when changes to the Z-figures are suggested. I

  and everyone else on the List NEEDS TO KNOW when some new,

  useful or necessary feature is called for. So please don't

  take my questioning as some defense of my ideas at the expense

  of your own. Our common goal should be the elegant solution.

  Maximize functionality and safety with the minimum of parts

  count, weight and cost while keeping operating procedures

  as simple as we can. When things are going sour in the cockpit,

  you don't want a feature of poor human factors design adding

  to your misery.



  Bob . . .

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