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Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah

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LouB

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 14

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah

How would you compare these two planes?  The matched hole construction seems to favor the Savannah but its "shady" origin is a potential drawback.



How do the new 701 kits seem with the increased CNC metal preparation.  Has the build time decreased.



Thanks,

Lou

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LouB

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 14

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:12 am Post subject: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah

Please fellows give me some input.  I'm really interested in how you would compare these two plane.



Thanks,

Lou

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Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah

I'm a 601 not a 701 builder but if I were I'd go with the 701 because I wouldn't trust a company that would so obviously steal the fruits of anothers labor.



If they are willing to steal designs I'd be concerned they'd steal my money as well.

 	  LouB wrote: 	
		  Please fellows give me some input.  I'm really interested in how you would compare these two plane.



Thanks,

Lou

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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Chris Lewis

Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Seattle

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah

While the Savannah kit is built in a state of the art facility with amazing craftsmanship, it's still a rip-off of the 701. In addition, the kit is ~50% more expensive.



They do have the luxury of being more adaptive and have produced more models with different wing styles including a non-slatted wing with vortex generators.



The upside is that the kit is more finished and has a shorter build time. 



The downside is that you are supporting someone who "borrowed" someone else's design and then has the audacity to compare themselves and their "improvements" to the 701 on their website.



Look to CZAW for the right way to do it. They are no longer affiliated with ZAC in the US and brought 3 new designs (Mermaid, Parrot and SportCruiser) to market - none of which show any indication of being anything but a fresh design.



Chris in Seattle

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750/ Zen-vair Semi-Scratch Builder
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah

Hi Lou,



An original design has a source, a safe envelope and a parts supply with 

engineering backing to resolve problems. A close copy is flattery, not 

theft, but often lacks a good effort and backing. Desire to profit from 

original design occurs in everything today. The copy usually lacks a 

parts system, good engineering support or good documentation.



I would look at the Savanna as an effort to copy and improve part of the 

design, but be very skeptical of the motives and product value of the 

Savanna for obviously having too closely copied design features. That 

suggests that there’s a “profit only motive”. Chris Heintz’s work is an 

influence on all the LSA aircraft much to his credit, but be careful of 

the “close copy” offerings. What other good names in aircraft design do 

you associate with the Savanna?

That's your answer.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



LouB wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Please fellows give me some input.  I'm really interested in how you would compare these two plane.



 Thanks,

 Lou

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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah

First off, in my last post I mentioned ethics of a company. ICP ( the makers of the Savannah) used to be the European manufacturer and distributor of the Chris Heintz design line of aircraft. The North American dealer for ICP refuses to admit that the Savannah is anything like the CH701 ( though many parts are interchangable) rather that the 701 is a copy of the Storch! It's like saying that your plane has a rudder so it must be a copy of Cessna.  

 PLEASE, design idea's and evolution are completely different then stealing from a designers blueprints.   

   

The Skykits rep has a comparison of the Savannah to the 701. The comparison is using an old CH701 kit that had no CNC and just a starting of photo walkthrough manuals. Moreover, I believe that the builder of that kit was unable to even finish building, while at the same time a 14 yr old girl was capable of building a 701 to completion by herself, this may speak volumes to some, and call into speculation the actual comparison used on the Dealers Website. Zenith has the highest completion rate of first time builders, more then any other kit manufacturer. The plans and manuals are written in English, not converted from Italian. If you think that sometimes the English manuals had hiccups, I have heard horror stories of the Savannahs manuals, but that was some time ago and I believe they are better now. The previous owners of Flypass had built several 701's to flying state, but when they tried to build a Savannah they told stories of mis-alignment and poor workmanship and even the plans were not in English for the most part. However, that was 4 years ago and I am sure that all those problems have been corrected by ICP.   

   

Now the 701 is all pre-drilled flat skins and all parts formed for thousands of dollars less then the Savannah kit. Also with the DVD's being offered by Homebuilthelp.com you can actually walkthrough your building process while watching Jon build his 701, this is better then any cooking show. The 701 is manufactured in America and has a far better reaching support network including this list! Plus there are thousands of CH701's flying, just check out the Zenith website, heck there are more 701's flying in just Ontario then all of North America.  

   

I do not like to talk ill of any competitor, but I have a huge personal problem with the North American dealer and his ethics. The rhetoric that he spouts at shows is disgraceful and unbecoming in my opinion. In fact, at one show a fellow went into the Savannah big top and unknowingly said that it was a nicely painted 701. (I felt sorry for the fellow as he really did not even know about the Savannah and thought he actually found the 701 at the show.) The fellow attending the tent said "Quote" "Sir calling my plane a 701 is like me calling your wife a whore" The poor chap found our booth shortly afterwards and told me directly, he was really upset and angry. I cannot say if it is true or not I can only relate what the gent told me, but I never questioned his statement.  

   

In your choice between the two planes, the CH701 is the original; it is the design of Chris Heintz and not a copy of anything. Chris built the blueprints from his own hands, did the math and did all the testing of the plane. You are given the freedom as a builder to make many of the decisions on engine choices and panel as you see fit. Zenith and Chris love to see the ingenuity of its builders to make the powerplant decisions. Not so for many other companies.  

   

If your decision is not for the CH701, then by all means it is your decision. However if you are looking for a copy of the 701 then please don't consider the Savannah, rather investigate the BRM http://www.planeperfection.com/  I truly believe that the CH701 is the better plane and is the only one capable of living up to it's claimed STOL characteristics. At least the dealers at Plane Perfection are willing to state that the plane is a copy of the 701 (I have been told by the North American dealer for Savannah that the CAD files for the CNC were stolen from ICP, and he called them filthy names for stealing! And the Savannah is not a copy of the 701 from his mouth? GO FIGURE!!!)  

   

As stated, I only have a problem personally with the ethics of the Savannah people. The CH701 in my mind is a far better plane, you save thousands of dollars on the kit prices and don't forget for roughly the same prices of the Savannah you can have one of the Zenith Distributors build your 701 into a state of completion further then the Savannah kit.  

   

I will get off the soapbox now and I apologize for the mud, this is the only one that bugs me to death.  

   

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com  

www.can-zacaviation.com   

do not archive  

   

--

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vgstol(at)bigpond.net.au
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah

We have three 701's and two  Savannahs at our airfield, and we have flown and built and maintained them  together so can make some comparisons based on experience.  I have a  detailed comparison half written up now, and will finish it off as soon as we  get back.  This morning two of the Savannahs and a 701 are leaving for a  3000 mile flying/camping trip into Central Australia - we'll tell you  all about it when we get back.

  

 Tailwinds always,

 JG

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