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needles for 447

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tc1917(at)hughes.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:12 am Post subject: needles for 447

I just want to add my two cents worth.  back a few years ago, I flew a 

regular standard 447 on an original firestar.  flew it for just about seven 

years and three engines.  had a lot of trouble with mid range and idling so 

I replaced the needle with one I had (dont remember where I got it).  It was 

a number 11G2 (for a 582)  worked great.  smoothed out the idle and brought 

everything in line where it should be.  I believe if I remember correct 

(yeah, that might work), it put it around 1080 egt and kept it right fine in 

the cht marks, from 250 to 275 or so.  at least that is my memory.  it 

seemed to work for all the engines and they were good runners.  just worth 

l.5 cents probably.  ted cowan, alabama.  slingshot driver.  p.s. I supposed 

there will be those out there that say it wont work, but what the heck, it 

is only a needle!!

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: needles for 447

---

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:58 am Post subject: Re: needles for 447

Thanks for the needle solutions for your cases. Following is what I did yesterday.



I re-pitched the prop again, this time such that I am getting 6450 rpm at full throttle level flight.... just right. I then flew for 2.3 hours with two  stops en-route. The EGTs were running around 1100 +/- 25 during 5500-5800 rpm cruise with  no problems in that range. BUT the needle clip is in the #4 (richest) position. Below 5500 rpm the engine is still unstable with RPM varying all over the place. 



After the flight I checked the plugs and they are about right. I removed the carb and took it apart. All the jets and the jet needle are per Rotax spec and in good condition with less than 70 hours on engine. The float levels are perfect too.



Today I plan to order a slightly richer needle jet (2.72 vs current 2.70) and one each of the two jet needles that you guys stated solved your problems. With three new pieces the combinations of possible parts is quite large. I'll test them each one at a time and then in various combinations, if needed. In each case I'll put the clip back in the #2 position to begin with.



I'll let you know what finally works for me (I hope).

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: needles for 447

Thom, You say the engine only has 70 hours on it, but you don't give its actual age. Is it a new engine run at the national average 30 to 50 hours a year or an older engine that spent some time as a hangar ornament? Is the 70 hours since factory new or since rebuild? 

The reason I ask is this, the symptoms you describe are a mixture going leaner at higher engine vacuum. The further you get from WOT the worse the problem becomes.

It'  s beginning to sound like an air leak somewhere in the intake system. 

How is the idle range set? Is the idle air adjustment near the factory setting (.5 turns out for 447, 1 turn out for 447DC?  The idle mixture circuit bleeds into the lower midrange. If you richen up the idle, do you see any changes in the middle and high midrange cruise where the anomalous leaning begins. Have you inspected and greased all the rubber fittings to make sure there are no cracks or delaminations. How is the condition of the crank seals? 

That's just some of the things I can think of off the top of my head.

Something just does not add up for a 70 hour engine to require radical jetting changes.



Rick



On 7/23/07,  Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote]  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>



Thanks for the needle solutions for your cases. Following is what I did yesterday. 



 I re-pitched the prop again, this time such that I am getting 6450 rpm at full throttle level flight.... just right. I then flew for 2.3 hours with two  stops en-route. The EGTs were running around 1100 +/- 25 during 5500-5800 rpm cruise with  no problems in that range. BUT the needle clip is in the #4 (richest) position. Below 5500 rpm the engine is still unstable with RPM varying all over the place. 



After the flight I checked the plugs and they are about right. I removed the carb and took it apart. All the jets and the jet needle are per Rotax spec and in good condition with less than 70 hours on engine. The float levels are perfect too. 



Today I plan to order a slightly richer needle jet (2.72 vs current 2.70) and one each of the two jet needles that you guys stated solved your problems. With three new pieces the combinations of possible parts is quite large. I'll test them each one at a time and then in various combinations, if needed. In each case I'll put the clip back in the #2 position to begin with. 



I'll let you know what finally works for me (I hope).



--------

Thom in Buffalo

N197BG FS1/447



--------------------

&quot;Blind respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.&quot; 

Albert Einstein





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=125308#125308 





 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List  

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:47 am Post subject: Re: needles for 447

Rick,



The engine was new last year and is immaculately clean, no seal leaks. 



The only range in which the EGTs are high is the mid-range. At the moment, with the clip in the #4 (richest position) the EGTs are around 1100 +/-25 at cruise. They are fine at idle and low throttle settings and WOT. I have not done an exhaustive intake leak test but will be looking into that while waiting for my jets and needles to arrive. I'm also going to mark on the throttle at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 positions so I can get an idea of where the problem is occurring in terms of throttle position, not just RPM range. The biggest problem now is that I can't get it to hold a stable RPM below 5,500.



When I got the FS the airscrew was back out a lot more than .5 as the Rotax manual recommends. I re-set it to stock and it would not run so I backed it out to where it was and it runs fine at low speed and idle. The idle speed was set rather low so I bumped it up to get about 2150 rpm when warm. When cold it is a good bit less than 2,000 rpm so I have to add throttle to keep the gearbox happy. If I set the idle speed for 2,000 rpm cold, then when warm it will be really revving and require brakes to stay still on the ramp.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

vincenic1(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: needles for 447

If you are considering trying different jet needles,  you can find  more 

information on how different needles  may  change the mixture  in a 

graph in the CPS catalog.  The Maintenance Tips article number 11,  

"Tuning the Bing Carburetor - Understanding the Mid-Range Circuit"  has 

a lot of detail that  may interest you.



Vince Nicely



Thom Riddle wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Thanks for the needle solutions for your cases. Following is what I did yesterday.



I re-pitched the prop again, this time such that I am getting 6450 rpm at full throttle level flight.... just right. I then flew for 2.3 hours with two  stops en-route. The EGTs were running around 1100 +/- 25 during 5500-5800 rpm cruise with  no problems in that range. BUT the needle clip is in the #4 (richest) position. Below 5500 rpm the engine is still unstable with RPM varying all over the place. 



After the flight I checked the plugs and they are about right. I removed the carb and took it apart. All the jets and the jet needle are per Rotax spec and in good condition with less than 70 hours on engine. The float levels are perfect too.



Today I plan to order a slightly richer needle jet (2.72 vs current 2.70) and one each of the two jet needles that you guys stated solved your problems. With three new pieces the combinations of possible parts is quite large. I'll test them each one at a time and then in various combinations, if needed. In each case I'll put the clip back in the #2 position to begin with.



I'll let you know what finally works for me (I hope).



--------

Thom in Buffalo

N197BG FS1/447

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:42 am Post subject: Re: needles for 447

Thanks Vince, I'm familiar with that graph. Though it is hard to read, a straight edge along the line for a particular jet needle helps clarify it.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: needles for 447

Thom, Had a customer and his son here a few minutes ago and John, the son, described a problem virtually word for word of what you are experiencing with his single carb 503. The solution, credited to someone at South Mississippi was to increase the pitch of the prop to achieve about 6200 at WOT in flight. He said the CHT's came up and the EGT's came right down.  

At least I offer cheap ideas to try.



Rick



On 7/24/07, Vince Nicely <vincenic1(at)earthlink.net (vincenic1(at)earthlink.net) > wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: Vince Nicely < vincenic1(at)earthlink.net (vincenic1(at)earthlink.net)>



If you are considering trying different jet needles,  you can find  more

information on how different needles  may  change the mixture  in a

graph in the CPS catalog.  The Maintenance Tips article number 11, 

"Tuning the Bing Carburetor - Understanding the Mid-Range Circuit"  has

a lot of detail that  may interest you.



Vince Nicely



Thom Riddle wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" < riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>



Thanks for the needle solutions for your cases. Following is what I did yesterday.



I re-pitched the prop again, this time such that I am getting 6450 rpm at full throttle level flight.... just right. I then flew for  2.3 hours with two  stops en-route. The EGTs were running around 1100 +/- 25 during 5500-5800 rpm cruise with  no problems in that range. BUT the needle clip is in the #4 (richest) position. Below 5500 rpm the engine is still unstable with RPM varying all over the place. 



After the flight I checked the plugs and they are about right. I removed the carb and took it apart. All the jets and the jet needle are per Rotax spec and in good condition with less than 70 hours on engine. The float levels are perfect too. 



Today I plan to order a slightly richer needle jet (2.72 vs current 2.70) and one each of the two jet needles that you guys stated solved your problems. With three new pieces the combinations of possible parts is quite large. I'll test them each one at a time and then in various combinations, if needed. In each case I'll put the clip back in the #2 position to begin with. 


	


	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: needles for 447

Rick,

I already did that but then the engine rpm instability below 5500 rpm was made worse. At 6450 WOT rpm the EGTs are around 1100 +/25 at cruise which is much better than before the changes made so far, but the engine rpm instability below 5500 is still present. I'm awaiting new jets and needles to see if I can find a combination that solves all the problems.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: Re: needles for 447

FOREWARNING - Long Post



I finally got a chance to do some more testing and jet changes. Before changing anything, I decided this morning to find out what rpms equated to carb. piston/slide position. I marked the throttle cable at 5 equally spaced points. Idle, WOT, and three intermediate equally spaced places. So now I have 4 approx. equal regions marked. I'll number the points from 1-5 with idle being #1.



As it turns out, at WOT (#5) the piston/slide is well up inside the cylinder and the next point marked (#4) was exactly where the bottom of the piston just cleared the top of the air intake. This means that at throttle  openings between #4 and #5 no more air is being pumped (assuming same rpm) than at WOT (#5) but more fuel is coming in because the jet needle continues to be withdrawn from the needle jet thus making the fuel passage larger. It seems to me that, THIS, not the size of the main jet, is why the EGTs go down at WOT. The main jet is an ultimate limiting factor but not the whole enchilada. BTW, at WOT I was seeing 6600 rpm this morning in the cool weather when last time I flew in a good bit warmer weather, I was getting 6450 rpm with the identical setup. More about OAT in a moment.



At #4 throttle position I was seeing around 6300 rpm and about 1100F EGTs +/- 25 or so. Remember this is with the stock jetting and needles but the clip in the lowest(richest) position. In the next leaner position I was getting over 1200F.



At #3 position I was seeing  anywhere from 5500-5800 rpm and EGTs about the same as in #4 position. This position equates to a piston/slide position of about 2/3rds open.



I suspected I would not be able to get rpm stability below this point but went ahead and reduced throttle anyway and at the #2 position I was seeing 4800 rpm and it was STABLE with EGTs about 1050-1100F. #2 position is when the piston is about 1/3rd or perhaps a little more open. 4800 rpm with the current prop pitch is the slowest engine rpm I can hold  in level flight. I was surprised and mystified at the rpm stability because I had not seen this before nor had I seen EGTs this low at this engine speed. After  flying for a total of about an hour I landed. 



After a rest it was beginning to warm up a good bit so I took off for another flight to confirm the engine stability. At the higher OATs the engine was no longer stable below 5500 rpm and adding the enricher did NOT help but hindered the engine running. 



I landed and changed the jet from 2.70 (stock) to 2.72 and moved the clip up to the next leaner position (#3) instead of #4. I took off and things were looking pretty good and the rpm stability at 4800 was back and EGTs around 1050-1000F. I landed and changed the jet from 2.72 to 2.74. 



Now the EGTs were way up to 1200F and the instability was back. This makes no sense to me at all since the 2.74 is supposed to be richer than the 2.72 which is supposed to be richer than the 2.70. I changed back to the 2.72 jet and #3 clip position on the stock (15K2) needle and put the airplane away for the day. The thermals were knocking me about too much.



I'm not finished testing yet but have come to some conclusions thus far.



1) I'm beginning to doubt the EGT readings on the EIS. I did not check the plugs after this morning's test flights so I need to do that before concluding  the EGTs are wrong.

2) This 447 sure is finicky, much more so than the 377 I had.

3) The OAT seems to make a big difference in engine stability at lower than 5500  rpm with a given jet setup.



Next step will be to change the needles from stock (15K2) to 15E5U and 11G2 which were fixes for others with finicky 447s. If I can't get it to run right at various OATs without changing jets for every 20 degrees F of temp  change, then I will be thinking seriously about the manual mixture control I've read about for the Bing 54s. If I end up doing this then I'll jet for rich and lean as I need it manually. 



Thanks for any more input you might have.



Thom the Experimenter

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: needles for 447

Excellent post, it is great to get something that you can really chew on and 

think about.

Reference your idea for the manual mixture control: years ago a friend had a 

Hummer with a Zenoah 250 that used a Mikuni pumper carb. Since the high 

speed needle on the carb was on the pilot's side of everything, we took a 

short stub of fuel hose and safety wired it to the needle for a u-joint, 

then stuck a long dowel into the hose and made an extension that ran all the 

way to the cockpit. Labeled the directions of twist "rich" and "lean", his 

goal was to keep his EGT gauge at 1100. Never had an engine failure, and he 

really liked it.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:51 PM

Subject: Re: needles for 447

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 FOREWARNING - Long Post



 I finally got a chance to do some more testing and jet changes. Before 

 changing anything, I decided this morning to find out what rpms equated to 

 carb. piston/slide position. I marked the throttle cable at 5 equally 

 spaced points. Idle, WOT, and three intermediate equally spaced places. So 

 now I have 4 approx. equal regions marked. I'll number the points from 1-5 

 with idle being #1.



 As it turns out, at WOT (#5) the piston/slide is well up inside the 

 cylinder and the next point marked (#4) was exactly where the bottom of 

 the piston just cleared the top of the air intake. This means that at 

 throttle  openings between #4 and #5 no more air is being pumped (assuming 

 same rpm) than at WOT (#5) but more fuel is coming in because the jet 

 needle continues to be withdrawn from the needle jet thus making the fuel 

 passage larger. It seems to me that, THIS, not the size of the main jet, 

 is why the EGTs go down at WOT. The main jet is an ultimate limiting 

 factor but not the whole enchilada. BTW, at WOT I was seeing 6600 rpm this 

 morning in the cool weather when last time I flew in a good bit warmer 

 weather, I was getting 6450 rpm with the identical setup. More about OAT 

 in a moment.



 At #4 throttle position I was seeing around 6300 rpm and about 1100F EGTs 

 +/- 25 or so. Remember this is with the stock jetting and needles but the 

 clip in the lowest(richest) position. In the next leaner position I was 

 getting over 1200F.



 At #3 position I was seeing  anywhere from 5500-5800 rpm and EGTs about 

 the same as in #4 position. This position equates to a piston/slide 

 position of about 2/3rds open.



 I suspected I would not be able to get rpm stability below this point but 

 went ahead and reduced throttle anyway and at the #2 position I was seeing 

 4800 rpm and it was STABLE with EGTs about 1050-1100F. #2 position is when 

 the piston is about 1/3rd or perhaps a little more open. 4800 rpm with the 

 current prop pitch is the slowest engine rpm I can hold  in level flight. 

 I was surprised and mystified at the rpm stability because I had not seen 

 this before nor had I seen EGTs this low at this engine speed. After 

 flying for a total of about an hour I landed.



 After a rest it was beginning to warm up a good bit so I took off for 

 another flight to confirm the engine stability. At the higher OATs the 

 engine was no longer stable below 5500 rpm and adding the enricher did NOT 

 help but hindered the engine running.



 I landed and changed the jet from 2.70 (stock) to 2.72 and moved the clip 

 up to the next leaner position (#3) instead of #4. I took off and things 

 were looking pretty good and the rpm stability at 4800 was back and EGTs 

 around 1050-1000F. I landed and changed the jet from 2.72 to 2.74.



 Now the EGTs were way up to 1200F and the instability was back. This makes 

 no sense to me at all since the 2.74 is supposed to be richer than the 

 2.72 which is supposed to be richer than the 2.70. I changed back to the 

 2.72 jet and #3 clip position on the stock (15K2) needle and put the 

 airplane away for the day. The thermals were knocking me about too much.



 I'm not finished testing yet but have come to some conclusions thus far.



 1) I'm beginning to doubt the EGT readings on the EIS. I did not check the 

 plugs after this morning's test flights so I need to do that before 

 concluding  the EGTs are wrong.

 2) This 447 sure is finicky, much more so than the 377 I had.

 3) The OAT seems to make a big difference in engine stability at lower 

 than 5500  rpm with a given jet setup.



 Next step will be to change the needles from stock (15K2) to 15E5U and 

 11G2 which were fixes for others with finicky 447s. If I can't get it to 

 run right at various OATs without changing jets for every 20 degrees F of 

 temp  change, then I will be thinking seriously about the manual mixture 

 control I've read about for the Bing 54s. If I end up doing this then I'll 

 jet for rich and lean as I need it manually.



 Thanks for any more input you might have.



 Thom the Experimenter





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126383#126383

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: Re: needles for 447

Richard,



Thanks for your comments on the "home-made" manual mixture control. I'm sure it works fine but I'm not quite that much of an experimenter so if I can't get satisfactory results with jet/needle changes I'm looking at the one that Greenskyadventures sells. I don't want the automatic HACman, just the manual one. For those who have not seen this, here is a link

Manual Mixture Control for Bing 54



http://www.greenskyadventures.com/bing/manualMixPrelease.htm



Automatic Altitude Compensating Mixture Control



http://www.greenskyadventures.com/bing/hacinstall.htm

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: Re: needles for 447

After reading all the posts I cant help but think that due to the instability there has to be a leak somewhere on the carb/intake side.



Im not familiar with the 447's but perhaps there is an intake leak at a gasket or a crack in an extension, or even something wrong in the carb.



Everytime I have ever experienced erratic engine speeds its because the fuel/air mixture is varying outside of normal throttle control.....airleak, bubbles, restrictions (ie dirt particles in carb)



How far is your fuel pickup height from the carb height? Using Fuel pump?



Crank pressure to fuel pump leaks, fuel pump leaks (hole in fuel pump diaphram)



Just some more ideas to check out.



Ray

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: needles for 447

Ray,



    I can't help but think you're onto something that is a distinct 

possibility.  In my experience with working with carburator problems, an 

erratic behaving carb MIGHT have something other than jets and needles that 

are causing the problem(s).



   As I am always led to believe, when you find the "culprit" you will want 

to kick yourself for overlooking the obvious.  That's not suggest that Thom 

hasn't checked the obvious, but at this point, with the engine rpm and temps 

seemingly all over the place, I would take a step back and reccommend the 

following;



1)  Insure the gages are accurate and are functioning properly.



2)  Spray carb-cleaner around the base and sides of the carb, while the 

engine is running, watching for any increase in rpms  (indicating an air 

leak)  (Build a carb throat inlet extension, if you have to, to make sure no 

vapors get sucked down the carb, giving you a false reading.)



       It sounds as though Thom is on top of things, with all the testing 

and what-not he's doing, but I kind of get the impression the high egt temps 

sound like a leak, too.



                                                   FWIW,        Mike in SW 

Utah





 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "jb92563" <jb92563(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: needles for 447

Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:21:47 -0700






After reading all the posts I cant help but think that due to the 

instability there has to be a leak somewhere on the carb/intake side.



Im not familiar with the 447's but perhaps there is an intake leak at a 

gasket or a crack in an extension, or even something wrong in the carb.



Everytime I have ever experienced erratic engine speeds its because the 

fuel/air mixture is varying outside of normal throttle control.....airleak, 

bubbles, restrictions (ie dirt particles in carb)



How far is your fuel pickup height from the carb height? Using Fuel pump?



Crank pressure to fuel pump leaks, fuel pump leaks (hole in fuel pump 

diaphram)



Just some more ideas to check out.



Ray



--------

Ray

Riverside County, CA



Do Not Archive





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126402#126402






	


_________________________________________________________________

Wade Lawicki

Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Nashville Tn.

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: needles for 447

Thom,

         We at our hanger keep a set of new single egt and cht gauges on hand just to verify that the ones installed are accurate!!! they are notorious for being up to 400 degrees off!!! I have chased my tail more than once only to find it is the gauge and nothing mechanical. Its worth the effort to out rule it first.

       Fly Safe,

                    Wade

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: Re: needles for 447

I also fly with a Rotax 447, and it is rock solid stable at any RPM.   I can set it at 4700 and it will run there all day long, never any of the surging or other problems mentioned by Thomas.   EGT and CHT are fine no matter what RPM I run the engine at.



It really sounds like a carb probem, or something more serious than just needle settings Thomas.   Check all other possibilities, you will probably be kicking yourself for doing all this methodical testing of different needles and jets just to find out it did not matter because of an air leak or other problem.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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