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Charles Heathco

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 201

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: Eaa banter

You think we could give this a rest? its just repeticious  drivel and is cloging my mailbox. Charlie Heathco

 

[img]http://promos.hotbar.com/promos/promodll.dll?GetPromo&El=&SG=&RAND=98783&partner=zango&/p.gif[/img] 

 

   [quote][b]

cbaron66

Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 16

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: Re: Eaa banter

What exactly do you want to "give it a rest" to? The fact that a measurable amount of the membership of an organization that is "non-profit" are not overly pleased with the way their dues are used? Or are you talking about the fact that Osh has become mostly a place for wealthy people to buy/pose with/play with very expensive crap most of us will never even dream about owning? Even though I only started attending in the early ninties, I feel there isn't as much there for the little

guy as there used to be(relative to the amount of high dollar sh_t that has no relevance to homebuilt aircraft). Nowdays, my favorite place is the few odd vendors left in the flymarket that sell old used airplane parts. I guess we'll just give it all a rest and sweep it under the rug once again. However I will win out, as I only in my forties and all the sad faced old men with more money than skills will quit flying and die. That will cause EAA to hopfully shrink back to what is was and should be again- a (small) group of fanatic enthusists that build airplanes with their hands from napkin drawings and don't need huge multi-corparate sponsorship to get together and have a little fun once a year.

Charles Heathco

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 201

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: Eaa banter

forget about it, Im just changing to Digest. ---

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n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Eaa banter

 	  Quote: 	
		  However I will win out, as I only in my forties and all the sad faced old men with more money than skills will quit flying and die. 	




Care to expand on this comment?



Only 40s and under should be flying and building?



Everybody over 40 or living above the poverty level has no skills?



Some people in their 20s and 30s consider 40 year olds as sad old men.



Your view of the EAA is no more appealing to me than the current one. 



But then when I die of old age I really won't care, that is if my presumed lack of skill doesn't get me first. so GFY

_________________
Milt

n142ds(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: Eaa banter

As much as I didn't want to get involved ... your note was the last straw.  I agree completely with Charlie ... this is the RV FORUM .. not the bitch about EAA forum.  If you want a bitch about EAA forum go to Yahoo and create an "EAA SUCKS" forum and continue to spout this dribble.  OTHERWISE, let's talk about RVs, RV construction etc. 



OH .. and I've been a member of EAA since 1974 and while I don't like much of what they have become, this is not the place to discuss it.



Now flame me all you want!



 On 8/1/07, cbaron66 <bruce.lee(at)honeywell.com (bruce.lee(at)honeywell.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV-List message posted by: "cbaron66" <bruce.lee(at)honeywell.com (bruce.lee(at)honeywell.com)>



What exactly do you want to "give it a rest" to? The fact that a measurable amount of the membership of an organization that is "non-profit" are not overly pleased with the way their dues are used? Or are you talking about the fact that Osh has become mostly a place for wealthy people to buy/pose with/play with very expensive crap most of us will never even dream about owning? Even though I only started attending in the early ninties, I feel there isn't as much there for the little 

guy as there used to be(relative to the amount of high dollar sh_t that has no relevance to homebuilt aircraft). Nowdays, my favorite place is the few odd vendors left in the flymarket that sell old used airplane parts. I guess we'll just give it all a rest and sweep it under the rug once again. However I will win out, as I only in my forties and all the sad faced old men with more money than skills will quit flying and die. That will cause EAA to hopfully shrink back to what is was and should be again- a (small) group of fanatic enthusists that build airplanes with their hands from napkin drawings and don't need huge multi-corparate sponsorship to get together and have a little fun once a year. 



	


-- 

David W. Schaefer

RV-6A N142DS "Geek One"

TMX-IOF360 FADEC, Hartzell Blended Airfoil, GRT EFIS

www.n142ds.com   [quote][b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:29 am Post subject: Eaa banter

What is the most interesting RV-related thing you saw at  Oshkosh this year, folks? I didn't get a chance to see the RV on floats but I'd  seen the pictures of it. Smitty has some pictures of it in the water on Doug's  site.

  

 What else? 

  

 Forums? Anybody learn anything at a  forum?



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David  Schaefer

Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 9:20 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Eaa  banter

 

As much as I didn't want to get involved ... your note was the last  straw.  I agree completely with Charlie ... this is the RV FORUM .. not the  bitch about EAA forum.  If you want a bitch about EAA forum go to Yahoo and  create an "EAA SUCKS" forum and continue to spout this dribble.  OTHERWISE,  let's talk about RVs, RV construction etc. 



OH .. and I've been a member  of EAA since 1974 and while I don't like much of what they have become, this is  not the place to discuss it.



Now flame me all you want!

[quote] [b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: Eaa banter

I went to the XP-360 build on Thursday.  I was pretty much an engine-ignoramus before this, but now I think I know enough to at least not be completely stupid about them.  Just mostly stupid 

And I had a very nice talk with one of the guys from P-Mag.

-J



On Aug 1, 2007, at 9:28 AM, Bob Collins wrote:

[quote]  What is the most interesting RV-related thing you saw at Oshkosh this year, folks? I didn't get a chance to see the RV on floats but I'd seen the pictures of it. Smitty has some pictures of it in the water on Doug's site.

  

 What else? 

  

 Forums? Anybody learn anything at a forum?

[b]

jmsears(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: Eaa banter

I really hate to step into this crap again; but, some comments 

made were a little out of line.     



 	  Quote: 	
		   What exactly do you want to "give it a rest" to? The fact 

 that a measurable amount of the membership of an 

 organization that is "non-profit" are not overly pleased 

 with the way their dues are used? 


	


The problem is, we can cuss and discuss this issue to death;

but, we're preaching to the choir.  Our comments, negative 

and positive, should be sent to the EAA instead of taking 

up so much space here.  How many have used "do not

archive" to keep this discussion out of the archives?  If 

one is not happy with an organization, one should let them

know.  Another alternative is to drop one's membership.  

I've done both with the EAA, when needed.      

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Or are you talking about the fact that Osh has become 

 mostly a place for wealthy people to buy/pose with/play 

 with very expensive crap most of us will never even 

 dream about owning? 


	


Yes, there is some of that; and, that was one reason I

dropped out of the EAA for a couple of years, some 

years back.  However, I have friends who look forward

to going to OSH every year, even though they bitch to 

no end about the cost.  I opt to not go.  I have yet to 

attend OSH because it does nothing for me.  I did 

attend Sun-n-Fun a few times; but, I've never had the 

desire to do OSH.  If one doesn't like what goes on 

there, do as I do.  It works for me.  Oh, yeah.  My

friends, for the most part, are far from wealthy.  Two

I know spend their vacations volunteering so you can

have fun there.  They can barely afford to attend it, 

themselves.          



 	  Quote: 	
		   Even though I only started attending in the early 

 ninties, I feel there isn't as much there for the little

 guy as there used to be(relative to the amount of high 

 dollar sh_t that has no relevance to homebuilt aircraft). 


	


That is probably true.  However, it is one of the places

one can go to see the latest in stuff that we can use in 

our RVs, or any other thing we're building.  I used my

first couple of trips to Sun-n-Fun to pick out a kit to

build.  Later on, I used a trip to pick out my avionics.

I've made one trip there, since.  I may not go to any 

more of their events; but, they worked for me, when 

I did attend.  Local fly-ins are more to my liking.  



 	  Quote: 	
		   Nowdays, my favorite place is the few odd vendors

 left in the flymarket that sell old used airplane parts. 


	


That's a neat place, if one is looking for rare parts.  You 

won't find those vendors at most fly-ins.   



 	  Quote: 	
		   I guess we'll just give it all a rest and sweep it under 

 the rug once again. 


	


You don't have to, if you complain to the source of the

problem.  We tend to bitch amongst ourselves and do

nothing to really confront the problem.  If you don't

talk with the EAA about what they're doing, they'll

continue to think they're still doing OK.  When a bunch

of us started raising heck about the warbirds, etc., in 

the magazine, that changed.  After a couple of years of

being a non-member, I felt the magazine was good 

enough for me to renew, again.  The magazine is my 

main benefit from the organization.  When it no longer

appeals to me, I'll complain to the EAA.      



 	  Quote: 	
		   However I will win out, as I only in my forties and all the 

 sad faced old men with more money than skills will quit 

 flying and die. 


	


Remember, we old men make up a goodly portion of GA.  

However, not all of us old men are rich.  In fact, most of 

the guys I know are considering getting out of aviation, not

because of our health.  We can no longer justify the cost.  If 

you can, then you must be one of the richer guys you're 

talking about.  The young folks I know can't afford a LSA

ticket, much less a private ticket.  Owning an airplane is

something they can only dream about.  The expenses of 

raising a family take all they have.  If you can still afford it, 

you must be richer than you think.   



As for the skills, who do you learn your skills from?  Mine

have come from various sources, to include those older than 

I am.  Will you be enough to back fill what will be lost when 

us older guys die off?  Remember, it's not just the rich old 

guys who die.  We older builders with skills die, as well.        



 	  Quote: 	
		   That will cause EAA to hopfully shrink back to what 

 is was and should be again- a (small) group of fanatic 

 enthusists that build airplanes with their hands from 

 napkin drawings and don't need huge multi-corparate 

 sponsorship to get together and have a little fun once 

 a year.


	


Unfortunately, you're right about the shrinkage because

there won't be enough young people with the incomes

and the desire to maintain GA as we know it, today.  It 

will be the rich who will be able to continue aviation, 

just as it is in Europe, today.  You can forget your get

togethers because those will be a thing of the past.  If

you want to see what it will be like, look at the large

fly-ins of Europe.  A big one there is no larger than one 

of our local events.  Do you think you'd ever see an

impromptu RV fly-in draw over 100 airplanes because 

the pilots just needed something to do?  I think not.       



That shrinkage you speak of will also mean a shrinkage 

of kits provided to those who want to build; so, we may 

have to revert back to scratch building to get anything built, 

provided parts suppliers are not all driven out of business

by the lack of business.  Just think of all of the jobs that 

will be lost, if us older guys die off.  We'll see GA for 

the middle class die.  Since I'm one of the older guys, I

may not live to see that happen, thankfully.  



My suggestion is that you should watch what you wish for.

You may get it and may not like what you get.  



Jim Sears in KY

RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)

RV-7A #70317  (Building when I get the urge) 

do not archive

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Eaa banter

 	  Quote: 	
		   Or are you talking about the fact that Osh has become 

 mostly a place for wealthy people to buy/pose with/play 

 with very expensive crap most of us will never even 

 dream about owning? 

	




I consider myself a working stiff. I'm building a pay-as-you-go airplane. I delivered newspapers for 10years to pay for the project. I'm in year #7 of the build and there'll probably be at least 4 more years of same. I have no clue how I'm going to pay for avionics or an engine. But I'm still building anyway. BEcause there's always hope.



I'll bet a lot of the folks described here as concerned about the cost of Oshkosh and the infiltration of the rich,  fly a lot more than I can afford to. I'll bet they own a plane. I'll bet they have an engine, I'll bet they have glass panels or are at least taking a step in that direction.



In other words -- by my yardstick -- they're rich. So it strikes me as odd to hear the rich lament that they are forced to hang around other rich people once a week.



I'll bet the farmer with the old Piper Cub in the barn thinks the same thing about RV owners and builders.



And certainly, we've all fought in our communities, the impression that aviaton -- and airports -- are playgrounds for rich boys and their toys.

The problem is, they are exactly that because the definition of "rich" most people use is anyone who makes more money than me, or can afford more things, than me.



It's all relative.



It remains unclear to me what people WANT out of the EAA AirVenture. I mean specifically WHAT? Do they want it to be like it was 20 years ago? Why? Our projects aren't what projects were 20 years ago.



When people say "it's not about homebuilding" anymore, I have to ask, what was the fiberglassing workshop about? What was the engine workshops about? What was the forum on registering your homebult about? I helped with a forum on using online resources in your homebuilt project. What was THAT about if not for homebuilders?  I could go on and on and on, but I won't because I'm pretty sure the complaint isn't REALLY that  it's not for homebuilders anymore; I'm pretty sure the complaint is actually that it's not ONLY for homebuilders anymore. But why is that bad?



What EXACTLY are you people NOT getting that you expect to get out of the event? For those of you who went this year, what EXACTLY were you looking to find that you couldn't find for a homebuilder?



There's no sense communicating directly with the EAA until we can adequately say exactly WHAT AirVenture should be.... not how p*ssed off you are about the way it is.



So what does that constructive suggestion the EAA is looking for look like.



BTW, don't think the EAA doesn't want to know. We were visited by our campsite on Tuesday by an EAA staffer who invited me to a feedback forum on what improvements we'd like to see at AirVenture. Unfortunately, having staye dup late to clean up the BBQ, 8:30 on Thursday morning -- which I had agreed to -- didn't meet my abilities to attend. (g)



But if I had, "don't suck so bad" wouldn't have been one of my suggestions. I had more productive ones like (a)have more  refund lines and (b) have better soap holders in the showers on the list.



So, imagine that you WERE in that group. What EXACTLY is on your list besides "don't let the 'rich' people in"?



Rich is relative.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: Eaa banter

The first time I remember ever getting up close to a real airplane was when

I was about 14 at the Washington State Fair in probably 1956. There was this

beautiful new red Piper Tripacer on display not far from the farm tractors.

I remember that it cost $10,000 -- about four times the annual income of our

family of five. I didn't know anyone who could afford such a luxury. About 8

years later (less time than I have been working on my RV) I soloed in a

T-38, which the Air Force then valued at a million dollars with an operating

cost of $1,000 per hour. The unfinished RV-8A in my shop, if finished, would

probably cost close to $100,000 to buy.



Times change. The rich get poor; the poor get rich; inflation makes

everything more expensive, innovation and technology brings us unanticipated

benefits at prices unimaginable in our wildest dreams. How many of us

expected to be arguing at near real-time with people who share our interests

and both please and annoy us around the world about the important and the

trivial ten years ago?



We privileged few are now the privileged many.



Terry

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Eaa banter

 	  Terry Watson wrote: 	
		  We privileged few are now the privileged many.

Terry 	




Excellent points. The other aspect of the rich and their rich toys -- i.e., the unaffordable production aircraft -- is they're the lab rats for stuff that eventually will make it to the homebuilt folks.



GPS, glass panels, autopilots, weather in the cockpit? It all came from the "high" end of aviation and made it to the "low end."



In the world of aviation,  the homebuilt world and the non-homebuilt world  aren't mutually exclusive, imho.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: Eaa banter

This was posted by Dick Finn , canard-aviator list.  The discussion on

the canard list, which developed independently, while not as robust as

the RV discussion, covers many of the same topics and concerns.  In sum,

the same overarching concerns are being expressed about the EAA mission

and focus by many and varied folks, not just a few whiners on the RV

list.



Chuck Jensen



Dick wrote....



I read all the glowing comments on the air show and

noticed one thing in common. They all told of how

great it was to see old friends, socialize with the

other builders at the barbeque, attend the barbeque,

dinner, weenie roast, etc. Generally the emails did

not say what a wonderful job EAA did and how they

enjoyed the rest of the fly in. Everything was

related to interactions with a small group of friends.



I'm a long time Cozy builder (plans #4 who has been

stalled for several years. Still, I do attend the air

show every year. When I started I attended all seven

days. As the EAA and the show changed, I slowly cut

back. This year I went on Thursday by myself and on

Friday with my wife and daughter. My overall feeling

was a continuation of the disappointment I started

feeling several years ago.



I would like to point out a few things that I have

noticed:

- My overall impression is that there are less people

attending. I have nothing concrete to go on here,

just a general impression. The EAA used to publish

attendance figures but I haven't seen them in Sport

Aviation for years. In fact, they even used to show

the growth rate in rolls of toilet paper consumed. I

really believe that attendance is down and has been

accelerating its downward trend. Dick Knapinski, I

believe you monitor this forum, could you comment? If

I'm wrong, I apologize-it is my impression though

- It appears to me that there is a steadily

accelerating decline in the number of show planes. It

used to be the field filled up every year but they

advertised that if you have a show plane they would

somehow fit you in. This year I saw a disappointingly

large number of empty tie down spaces in the show

plane area. I don't know if the field ever closed to

incoming traffic as it did in the past.

- My wife enjoys the war birds but it seemed that

there were not that many present this year. 

- For years the back row in the Fly Mart has been a

bit sparse-still, five years ago, it was populated. 

This year there was a row and a half empty. This is

not a big deal but I think it is indicative of a

general decline.

- There have always been a lot of aircraft "scrap"

dealers in the Fly Mart. I only noticed a couple this

year. For that matter, the number of tool and general

aircraft grade hardware dealers seems to be less. 

This leaves the impression that the Fly Mart is

turning into a general "Flea Market" with only casual

relation to aviation. For example, I saw two or three

booths selling pots and pans-unbelievably (at least

for me) they wanted $1575 for a handful of pots.

- Prices seem to be higher and continually rising. 

Food is the worst example. It appears to me that it

costs about $10 for a burger, fries and a Coke. I can

get a McDonalds meal at O'Hare for abut $6. A bottle

of soda you would pay $1 to $1.25 for a Walgreen's

costs $3.25. The little cups of frozen lemonade are

now up to $4. This appears to me to be another step

down a slippery slope. Failing revenues or simple

greed causes them to raise prices. A guy will pay it

but feel he is being cheated and then not come back

the next year. Lower attendance means lower revenue

so they raise the prices further-and so it goes.

- I'm seeing more commercial exhibitors now. They are

still general aviation but are aimed at the business

market. This audience is less focused on costs as

many are on expense accounts so I am thinking that

this is the direction EAA is moving.

- There appeared to me to be less "Big Iron" in Aero

Shell Square". Still, the area was crowded with

tents. Ford has a huge tent dedicated toward car

sales. I don't see much relationship with aviation

other than pilots tend to be more "well off" and do

buy cars.

- I noticed that McDonalds is not there this year

(which I thought was a good thing as they seemed to be

pushing out the old vendor -Zaug's). When I went down

to the Homebuilders area to get some lunch, however, I

found they had replaced what I believe to be the last

Zaug's outlet with a new vendor. I asked and was told

that the EAA was now running the concessions-my

assumption was that they could then pocket the full

profit. Zaug's used to sell "OK" food at a reasonable

price.

- We live on the east shore of Lake Winnebago and get

the TV news from Green Bay. Years ago they pretty

much based the whole week's newscasts around the EAA. 

This year there were only a couple of stories and I

didn't see their broadcast areas set up at the show. 

On the day of the P51 crash I listened to the radio

while pulling out of the parking lot. They had an

announcer who had a little information but said they

were sending someone in from their Fox Valley newsroom

and would report more at 5:30.



So, what is my point? I think the EAA is changing for

the worse from the perspective of an aviation

enthusiast. This is no longer the Convention of the

EAA (note that the old name points toward it being a

members event) but is now AirVenture (note the change

toward a general public or commercial event). The

symbol of the EAA is no longer a little homebuilt but

a more commercial oriented symbol (a jet). 



My prediction:

1. The EAA and AirVenture will continue to decline

from the point of view of the little guy.

2. There will be an upswing in the number of small

aviation fly ins which are not related to the EAA

(i.e. Rough River).

3. Groups will merge at these fly in's (The canards

all get together as a large group now-this has

happened over the past few years). Even the Cozy

Dinner is open to all canards now-yes, I consider this

a good thing. I think we will see them joined at fly

ins by other types. Maybe we will see a fly in for

all composite planes which will be joined later by

wood and fabric, etc.

4. Fewer builders will attend OSH, instead, going to

the other fly ins. Those of us still in the work

force only have so much vacation after all.

5. An organization will form to promote the smaller

fly ins and provide support to the attendees.



Isn't that the way EAA got started?



Just some observations, thoughts and my opinion.



Dick Finn



Dick Finn

H: 708-246-8715

C: 708-359-9506

E-Mail: cozy7971(at)yahoo.com

bmeyette

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 72
Location: Cornish, NH

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: Eaa banter

I went to a similar one several years ago, back when I was planning to go Lycoming (SHOULDA), and was going to build my own.   I have extensive notes & pics from that seminar here:  http://brian76.mystarband.net/SuperiorTextPics.htm  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

brian  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

--

_________________
Brian Meyette, Cornish, NH

RV-7A QB tipup, supercharged Subaru STi engine, MT CS prop, all glass day/night/IFR panel, being built with solar and wind power

N432MM

http://brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm

kahuna

Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 93

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: Eaa banter

Id say the most interesting RV thing at OSH was the largest  formation they have ever seen, and we think ever done anyhere. The 35 ship formation was way cool.

 Being in it might make me biased. But it was RV cool none the less.

 OK Ill admit too, that RV on floats was wayy cool too.

 

 Mike

 do not archive

 

 <snip>

 What is the most interesting RV-related thing you saw at Oshkosh this year, folks? I didn't get a chance to see the RV on floats but I'd seen the pictures of it. Smitty has some pictures of it in the water on Doug's site.

  

 What else? 

  

 Forums? Anybody learn anything at a forum?

 <snip>

   [quote][b]

jerry-hansen(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: Eaa banter

Yep, Mike, you probably are understandably biased.  But it WAS way cool.  

   

Jerry  

Do not archive        

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael W Stewart

 Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 12:19 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Eaa banter  

  

   

Id say the most interesting RV thing at OSH was the largest formation they have ever seen, and we think ever done anyhere. The 35 ship formation was way cool.

 Being in it might make me biased. But it was RV cool none the less.

 OK Ill admit too, that RV on floats was wayy cool too.

 

 Mike

 do not archive

 

 <snip>

 What is the most interesting RV-related thing you saw at Oshkosh this year, folks? I didn't get a chance to see the RV on floats but I'd seen the pictures of it. Smitty has some pictures of it in the water on Doug's site.

 

 What else? 

 

 Forums? Anybody learn anything at a forum?

 <snip>   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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        [quote][b]

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: Eaa banter

On 1 Aug 2007, at 15:19, Michael W Stewart wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Id say the most interesting RV thing at OSH was the largest  

 formation they have ever seen, and we think ever done anyhere. The  

 35 ship formation was way cool.



Congratulations on the very impressive formation work.  Looking at  
	


the pictures, it is hard to find anyone very far out of position.   

That is a real credit to the skills of each of the pilots, and to  

smooth flying by lead.



I bet the guys who flew the B-17s and B-24s during WWII might  

disagree with you that 35 aircraft in formation was the largest  

ever.  Their formations weren't as tightly spaced, but they were  

quite intricately choreographed, and no less difficult than yours.   

The records seem to show formations of more than 50 B-17s or B-24s.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_box



I think I've also seen some pictures of very large formations during  

various flypasts to celebrate the end of WWII, and the Soviet May Day  

celebrations seemed to have quite large formations too.



Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

brian.kraut(at)engalt.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: Eaa banter

I think you got that backwards.  We are the lab rats for the gadgets that

eventually make it into the certified planes most of the time.



Brian Kraut

Engineering Alternatives, Inc.

www.engalt.com



--

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: Eaa banter

OK, would you believe it's the "smallest" 35 aircraft formation ever. (Note I did not use the word "ship" as that might lead to dingbats in dingy's OR going to the Ship vs Boat post argument again).

Kevin: We still have a warm one for ya'll.  8*)  KABONG  Do Not Archive.  HRII & HR .II  both N561FS. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Eaa banter

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 1 Aug 2007, at 15:19, Michael W Stewart wrote:

> Id say the most interesting RV thing at OSH was the largest  

> formation they have ever seen, and we think ever done anyhere. The  

> 35 ship formation was way cool.

>

I bet the guys who flew the B-17s and B-24s during WWII might  

disagree with you that 35 aircraft in formation was the largest  

ever.  Their formations weren't as tightly spaced, but they were  

quite intricately choreographed, and no less difficult than yours.   

The records seem to show formations of more than 50 B-17s or B-24s.

cbaron66

Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 16

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Eaa banter

I'm sorry if I came off a little harsh before- it's just that I get frustraited when everyone seems to think everything is rosey with GA and the EAA in particular. I also live in Minneapolis and I'm saddend by the bridge collapse-it kind of puts things in perspective. To show my displeasure with the way the EAA has spent my money in the past, I have decided to not renew my membership and I'll most likely never return to Osh again. Maybe my little "protest" will have an effect but most likely not. Right now I'm at the point of deciding what it is that I'm going to build. As you might assume from my user name, I used to own a '66 Baron and before that a '58 Travel air. I decided quite some time ago that, even though I'm an A&P, I'll never own another certified aircraft. For quite some time I was set on building an RV6 but(here's the part you won't like) over the last 7 to 9 years, from the "outside", the RV planes and crowds have become much like the classic corvette crowd. Now if I have to explain that, well, you'll just get madder at me... I have the skills and facilities to build from plans so that's where I'm going- to myself, that's much closer to EXPERIMENTAL aviation than ordering up a quick build "kit" that was put togther for you by some poor SOB in a third world country so you can get around the legal maint. constraints of flying spam cans. As far as getting what I wish for, I plan on flying my plans built plane from my own grass strip, day VFR only and never coming near any controlled airspace so, user fees(as I understand them), etc, will mean nothing to me. I'm not trying to offend anyone by offering my veiws, it's just to me, the EAA and for a large part, those that embrace what it has become, are not what I think EXPERIMENTAL aviation should be. But again this is just my opinion and it should not offend anyone if they don't agree.  	  jmsears(at)adelphia.net wrote: 	
		  I really hate to step into this crap again; but, some comments 

made were a little out of line.     



 	  Quote: 	
		   What exactly do you want to "give it a rest" to? The fact 

 that a measurable amount of the membership of an 

 organization that is "non-profit" are not overly pleased 

 with the way their dues are used? 



	


The problem is, we can cuss and discuss this issue to death;

but, we're preaching to the choir.  Our comments, negative 

and positive, should be sent to the EAA instead of taking 

up so much space here.  How many have used "do not

archive" to keep this discussion out of the archives?  If 

one is not happy with an organization, one should let them

know.  Another alternative is to drop one's membership.  

I've done both with the EAA, when needed.      

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Or are you talking about the fact that Osh has become 

 mostly a place for wealthy people to buy/pose with/play 

 with very expensive crap most of us will never even 

 dream about owning? 



	


Yes, there is some of that; and, that was one reason I

dropped out of the EAA for a couple of years, some 

years back.  However, I have friends who look forward

to going to OSH every year, even though they bitch to 

no end about the cost.  I opt to not go.  I have yet to 

attend OSH because it does nothing for me.  I did 

attend Sun-n-Fun a few times; but, I've never had the 

desire to do OSH.  If one doesn't like what goes on 

there, do as I do.  It works for me.  Oh, yeah.  My

friends, for the most part, are far from wealthy.  Two

I know spend their vacations volunteering so you can

have fun there.  They can barely afford to attend it, 

themselves.          



 	  Quote: 	
		   Even though I only started attending in the early 

 ninties, I feel there isn't as much there for the little

 guy as there used to be(relative to the amount of high 

 dollar sh_t that has no relevance to homebuilt aircraft). 



	


That is probably true.  However, it is one of the places

one can go to see the latest in stuff that we can use in 

our RVs, or any other thing we're building.  I used my

first couple of trips to Sun-n-Fun to pick out a kit to

build.  Later on, I used a trip to pick out my avionics.

I've made one trip there, since.  I may not go to any 

more of their events; but, they worked for me, when 

I did attend.  Local fly-ins are more to my liking.  



 	  Quote: 	
		   Nowdays, my favorite place is the few odd vendors

 left in the flymarket that sell old used airplane parts. 



	


That's a neat place, if one is looking for rare parts.  You 

won't find those vendors at most fly-ins.   



 	  Quote: 	
		   I guess we'll just give it all a rest and sweep it under 

 the rug once again. 



	


You don't have to, if you complain to the source of the

problem.  We tend to bitch amongst ourselves and do

nothing to really confront the problem.  If you don't

talk with the EAA about what they're doing, they'll

continue to think they're still doing OK.  When a bunch

of us started raising heck about the warbirds, etc., in 

the magazine, that changed.  After a couple of years of

being a non-member, I felt the magazine was good 

enough for me to renew, again.  The magazine is my 

main benefit from the organization.  When it no longer

appeals to me, I'll complain to the EAA.      



 	  Quote: 	
		   However I will win out, as I only in my forties and all the 

 sad faced old men with more money than skills will quit 

 flying and die. 



	


Remember, we old men make up a goodly portion of GA.  

However, not all of us old men are rich.  In fact, most of 

the guys I know are considering getting out of aviation, not

because of our health.  We can no longer justify the cost.  If 

you can, then you must be one of the richer guys you're 

talking about.  The young folks I know can't afford a LSA

ticket, much less a private ticket.  Owning an airplane is

something they can only dream about.  The expenses of 

raising a family take all they have.  If you can still afford it, 

you must be richer than you think.   



As for the skills, who do you learn your skills from?  Mine

have come from various sources, to include those older than 

I am.  Will you be enough to back fill what will be lost when 

us older guys die off?  Remember, it's not just the rich old 

guys who die.  We older builders with skills die, as well.        



 	  Quote: 	
		   That will cause EAA to hopfully shrink back to what 

 is was and should be again- a (small) group of fanatic 

 enthusists that build airplanes with their hands from 

 napkin drawings and don't need huge multi-corparate 

 sponsorship to get together and have a little fun once 

 a year.



	


Unfortunately, you're right about the shrinkage because

there won't be enough young people with the incomes

and the desire to maintain GA as we know it, today.  It 

will be the rich who will be able to continue aviation, 

just as it is in Europe, today.  You can forget your get

togethers because those will be a thing of the past.  If

you want to see what it will be like, look at the large

fly-ins of Europe.  A big one there is no larger than one 

of our local events.  Do you think you'd ever see an

impromptu RV fly-in draw over 100 airplanes because 

the pilots just needed something to do?  I think not.       



That shrinkage you speak of will also mean a shrinkage 

of kits provided to those who want to build; so, we may 

have to revert back to scratch building to get anything built, 

provided parts suppliers are not all driven out of business

by the lack of business.  Just think of all of the jobs that 

will be lost, if us older guys die off.  We'll see GA for 

the middle class die.  Since I'm one of the older guys, I

may not live to see that happen, thankfully.  



My suggestion is that you should watch what you wish for.

You may get it and may not like what you get.  



Jim Sears in KY

RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)

RV-7A #70317  (Building when I get the urge) 

do not archive

jrdial(at)hal-pc.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: Eaa banter

If y'all spent as much time building as you do arguing about non RV stuff you would be flying now.  

       

     DO NOT ARCHIVE  

   

   

   

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