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What will it be worth?

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Doug.Gee(at)firestone-tex
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: What will it be worth?

I am a pilot and own a 172.  I have never built a plane before but after talking with the folks at Van's at Sun n Fun and going for a ride in the RV10, I am very interested in giving it a try.  I spent several hours with the fine folks at the sheet metal shop at Sun n Fun and they provided a wealth of info and gave me basic instruction.  I was already to order the tools and the tail kit when I reviewed the project with my airplane mechanic and he informed me that I would be lucky to get half of the investment back when it was completed.  I have since checked the internet and I see some for sale at well above the materials cost.  I have to admit that a used 182 could be bought for about the cost of the RV10 materials with similar performance and it is certified.  Can anyone tell me what it is really going to be worth (assuming new everything)? I see what people are asking for them but what are they actually selling for?



Thanks

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: What will it be worth?

Doug,



1.  I'm not sure what basis your mechanic used for his statement. And 

perhaps several years ago it may have been closer to the truth, but with 

Over 5000 RV planes flying, Van's planes are becoming more mainstream 

daily. an RV 6 'exceptional airplane' recently sold for $106K (posted on 

Matronics). For what ever reason people are reluctant to post/disclose 

what price they paid for a plane for. But as further evidence against 

what your mechanic decries. Is the INCREASING number of Ultra fast 

build/build for hire operations that are emerging. Obviously these 

'businesses' are making a profit and the increasing number of them 

indicates that there are buyers who are willing to pay the prices. So 

when you see advertised prices for RV-10's in excess of $200K (depending 

upon equipped options) I think its reasonable to assume that they 

selling without deep discounts. 



2. Are your plans to build it and then sell it? Or are you planning on 

building it for your own education and recreation with the possibility 

of selling it at some future date if/when the plane no longer fits you 

mission? If it's the later, I would further argue that all of the 

trendlines and inflation argue for a protection of your investment.



3. Depending upon how long you expect to own/operate the aircraft. If 

you build it and receive the repairman's certificate.  You will avoid 

expensive future encounters with your 'mechanic'.

Deems Davis # 406

'Its all done....Its just not put together'

http://deemsrv10.com/



Doug Gee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am a pilot and own a 172.  I have never built a plane before but after talking with the folks at Van's at Sun n Fun and going for a ride in the RV10, I am very interested in giving it a try.  I spent several hours with the fine folks at the sheet metal shop at Sun n Fun and they provided a wealth of info and gave me basic instruction.  I was already to order the tools and the tail kit when I reviewed the project with my airplane mechanic and he informed me that I would be lucky to get half of the investment back when it was completed.  I have since checked the internet and I see some for sale at well above the materials cost.  I have to admit that a used 182 could be bought for about the cost of the RV10 materials with similar performance and it is certified.  Can anyone tell me what it is really going to be worth (assuming new everything)? I see what people are asking for them but what are they actually selling for?



 Thanks

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: What will it be worth?

Build it for the satifaction and the love of creation....If I made $75,000 on mine it would not be enough to cover the time, fun, blood, sweat and tears not to mention the immense feeling of satisfaction that comes with this process. Just guessing, but you could easily get your "money" out of it. That is if you built it well enough to attract a buyer, but then again W.C Fields mentioned something about someone born every minute.



Rick S.

40185

do not archive



---

rv10(at)sinkrate.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject: What will it be worth?

Let's break it down...



NEW Airplane that cruises 160-165kts, climbs at 1500-2000 ft/min, has a

plethora of EFIS displays to choose from that you can maintain yourself for

$130,000 to $180,000....  Yeah you gotta want to build it.



  - vs - 



Used (30+ years used) 182 that cruises at 125-130kts, has a vacuum pump and

standard 6 pack, requires an A&P IA every time you touch it for 80,000 -

120,000+



I am assuming you weren't even considering a $400,000 new Cessna.



I'm not knocking 182's at all but side by side comparison really shows how

strong the 10 is.  182's are excellent aircraft.  I had myself, 2 other

adults, and a teenager in one the other day.  We climbed to 10,000 and

circled Mt. St. Helens.  Excellent airplane, everyone was comfortable.  Oh

yeah we were in that cause the 10 isnt finished yet!!



I don't think there is really a right or wrong answer to this as it depends

entirely on the person.  You have to want to build an airplane to put

together a 10.  If it were your full time job it would take more than a year

to complete.  Do you have that kind of time to spend?  How long will it take

you to carve out 2500+ hours to assemble this from your daily grind?



Now about the money...  If you can't sell it for what you have into it (not

counting labor) then something is seriously wrong and most likely it's the

manufacturer (you) that did the something wrong.  



The resources available to builders today have really changed the face of

"experimental" airplanes.  The EAA and having communities such as this one

available nearly 24x7 for comment has been invaluable.  I can't imagine

doing this without the Randy DeBauw's, Tim Olson's, Deems Davis's, and yes

even 1/2 of what John Cox says, just kidding John!  Spend some time looking

through Tim's website http://www.myrv10.com and you'll see what I mean.



Call me some time if you want to discuss more 503-639-4049 PST.



-Ben Westfall

PDX

#40579 - Fuse (damn Section #29)



--

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:35 pm Post subject: What will it be worth?

Doug Gee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 ...when I reviewed the project with my airplane mechanic and he informed me that I would be lucky to get half of the investment back when it was completed.  


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   I have to admit that a used 182 could be bought for about the cost of the RV10 materials with similar performance and it is certified.  


	




Hi Doug,

	My personal opinion only but it does not sound as if your mechanic is 

well versed in experimental aircraft, especially the RV-10 you are 

considering.  I've run into this many times when trying to get a 

mechanic to work on the Glasair that I used to own (built by the 

previous owner).



	Aside from that, the 182 doesn't really have similar performance, and 

if you were to buy a new Cessna to compare to the new RV-10, you would 

be paying well over twice as much for the Cessna as compared to the 

RV-10.  You should consider a 4 place Lancair or Cirrus if you want to 

compare with something more similar to the RV-10.



	If you do decide to build, you may want to consider getting all of the 

quick build options to help cut down on the build time, or you could 

even consider the Two Weeks to Taxi program if you are really impatient 

(http://www.twoweekstotaxi.com/).



My half cents, FWIW,



-Dj



do not archive

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: What will it be worth?

Dear Doug,

	I am sure you will get a lot of additional responses to the

actual value of your project once complete vs. a certified 182 or the

like so I will address your comment about "similar performance."

	Did you really fly in the RV-10? When I flew the -10 at SNF (I

am 7 months from first flight and currently fly a 6A, Turbo Lance II,

D-35 Bonanza) Vans demo plane had 3 - 200+ Lbs occupants and full tanks.

We climbed out at 1500" per minute and were moving right along in level

flight in no time. The demo pilot mentioned that the factory -10

regularly outperforms the factory RV-7 in both climb and cruse. That is

impressive because my little 6A hustles right along (flew back from LA

today at 180 kts). If my -10 matches my 6A's performance I will be VERY

happy.

	About 2 months ago I was the safety pilot for a friend IFR

recurrent training in his mint 182. It was just the two of us (unknown

tanks) and my only thought during the entire 90 minutes was "is this all

it has?" Wow that would make for some very long trips. The 182 seemed

like a great way to build time because it was SLOW. I have to say it

seemed like a great IFR platform because it was so stable but stable &

slow. I think his fuel burn was in the neighborhood of 18 GPH. I hope to

be closer to 13 GPH in my -10 (some people are flying LOP under 10 GPM).

If those numbers hold I expect to get close to twice the MPG as his 182.

That is a significant savings right there.

	If you do end up building a -10 you will also enjoy the benefit

of the repairman's certificate. My annuals in the -6A can be under $500.

Some builder/owners have annuals under $200.00. Double either of those

numbers and you are still a miles away from your basic $5,000 annual or

the SURPRISE $8,700 annual that once can expect on any 30 year old

plane. With a -10 you will probably have a zero time motor, prop etc...

That is real peace of mind (once the fly off is behind you) vs. the

variety pack of items added and removed over the course of 30 years. I

think if you just take into consideration the difference in cost of

annuals over a 10 year period that is enough to sway one (financially)

to an experimental. 

	Moving on to the actual flying of the plane. Because you are the

builder you can choose what you want in YOUR plane. My plane will have

two DVD players integrated in the cockpit as one of my priorities is to

get my family to think about something other than "are we there yet" and

my daughter's favorite "is that noise normal?" Yes I have some anxious

flyers in my family. Between the DVD's, audio & video hook ups that

should keep them busy. To please me we will be putting in a triple glass

panel, integrated dual 18 watt radios, triple battery system, &

integrated O2, full leather and a beer dispenser. OK, I made that last

part up but you get the idea. You don't get to fly an all glass

certified plane unless you get a much newer version. Then the costs are

not even close. Basically you can have whatever you want in your plane. 

	I could go on & on as to the benefits to non-certified planes

but I have been known to talk myself into a lot of different things. 



Good luck,

Robin



RV-4 Sold

RV-6A 370 hours

RV-10 Sooner or Later, probably later...



--

GRANSCOTT(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:19 am Post subject: What will it be worth?

In a message dated 8/12/2007 11:01:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Doug.Gee(at)firestone-textiles.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I have to admit that a used 182 could be bought for about the cost of the RV10 materials with similar performance and it is certified. 	


 Doug,

  

 I don't think you can compare an old C 182 with the RV 10 as for performance and handling...Others will probably be able to give you better information, but the RV 10 is similar in speed and handling to the newer generation of aircraft as compared to a design from Cessna's 1950's technology.  The 182 is a nice plane and has a good useful load...it's a good airplane to fly.  If you want to step up in speed you'd need the retract 182...called an R182 a little faster but still slower than an RV 10 and it still handles like a Cessna with all the rattly doors/windows.

  

 As a builder of an RV, I think your A&P may be missing why you are building and why builders build.  It's not for re-sale for most builders.  It's the accomplishment and satisfaction of flying something you've created.  If you want to be in the business of building and selling aircraft then it's best to set up a business to do this.  

  

 If you're building and then are going to sell it quickly, it's not a very rewarding enterprise for most to do this.  An experimental will generally not have the same re-sale value as a "certified" plane, when you compare all that you've invested vs. what the "certified" company has completed.  But as you look at this one needs to keep in mind that you'll need to compare likes to likes.  A new C 182 will set you back about $400k, a newly built RV 10 will be $135k+ depending upon how much avionics one invests.  The new Cessna 182T with G 1000 system as still the same old design as the original planes, they have better seats and doors and because of all the new heavy equipment they are only a 3 person plane, useful load is down significantly.

  

 I have several hundred hours flying the 182T and for the money that they cost they a poor investment.  The modern performance is not there...it still has all the elements that slows the plane down.  So to compare the "10" with a 182 is mixing apples with oranges.  You've really got to compare the RV 10 to a Cirrus type aircraft to get performance and technology.  Comparing the "10" to a 20+ years old plane is not a fair comparison.  

  

 There are some nice ol' 182's out there and they will get you from A to B safely, but you'll be going slow, using more fuel per hour and the doors and windows will leak no matter what you do...your feet will roast and your head will be cold in the winter along with a numb arm that is next to the window and it will be an OK plane to fly...no style, yesterday news on design.  If you want to fly something faster, more efficient then nothing from Cessna will do unless you go into their new sport plane.  There are only a few choices of "certified" aircraft--Columbia, Cirrus, Mooney Ovation II, etc., and a few experimental.  The "certified's" in the RV 10 class will cost well north of $350k but probably close to $500k and the RV 10 will cost a lot less.  The RV 10 will be as basic or as sophisticated as you want.

  

 If you want to fly a Cessna then stay with the Cessna and step up from the 172 to the 182; you'll go a little faster, and it can happen quickly for you to do so.  If you want the experience of a life time then build an experimental.  If you're concerned about you're payback, building is probably not for you, nor is buying a new airplane, either....MHO.

  

 Patrick





  [quote][b]

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: What will it be worth?

In a message dated 8/12/2007 11:51:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ricksked(at)embarqmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  W.C Fields mentioned something about someone born every minute. 	


 P.T. Barnum...



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

  [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:04 am Post subject: What will it be worth?

I think your airplane mechanic seems to have a stake in you

NOT buying a homebuilt.  I wonder....is there a benefit to

HIM if you buy a C-182 vs. an RV-10??  And, what exactly

would that be? 



He's right, about some kits....you won't get much more

than, or possibly even equal to, what you pay to build it.

But, he obviously hasn't been exposed enough to RV's, and

especially the RV-10.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Doug Gee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <Doug.Gee(at)firestone-textiles.com>

 

 I am a pilot and own a 172.  I have never built a plane before but

 after talking with the folks at Van's at Sun n Fun and going for a

 ride in the RV10, I am very interested in giving it a try.  I spent

 several hours with the fine folks at the sheet metal shop at Sun n

 Fun and they provided a wealth of info and gave me basic instruction.

 I was already to order the tools and the tail kit when I reviewed the

 project with my airplane mechanic and he informed me that I would be

 lucky to get half of the investment back when it was completed.  I

 have since checked the internet and I see some for sale at well above

 the materials cost.  I have to admit that a used 182 could be bought

 for about the cost of the RV10 materials with similar performance and

 it is certified.  Can anyone tell me what it is really going to be

 worth (assuming new everything)? I see what people are asking for

 them but what are they actually selling for?

 

 Thanks

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:39 am Post subject: What will it be worth?

oops....Wrong quote book!!

---

MaxHegler(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:27 am Post subject: What will it be worth?

There's a P.T. Barnum born every minute?   

 [quote]   ---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: What will it be worth?

Consistency of construction technique to an FAA approved standard is

one.  Having only those people who had to prove knowledge and competence

(at one point in time)to maintain aircraft is a second (A & P

mechanics).  Solidly established actuary statistics for stabilized

insurance rates a third.  And finally, the ability to use the asset in a

Commercial Endeavour such as revenue production is a fourth for reasons

to considering a Certificated, Mass Produced Aircraft.



Ability to modify is one, ability to do one's own maintenance work is

two, a great group of builders to bounce ideas off of is three, a lower

cost to acquire a New product is four.  And the final reason is the

shear satisfaction at building such a wonderful accomplishment during an

all too short lifetime is the Fifth for an Owner Built and Maintained

Kit Assembled aircraft.



Know your mission, know your purpose and then don't look back on your

decision.  The water is fine... jump in... we are all treading.



John Cox

Do not Archive



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