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rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
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 Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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Commanders-
Seems not ALL the news surrounding N414C’s return to flight is good.
One of the dozen-or-so squawks that we listed on the airplane after purchase was that the left engine had a tendency to produce oil in the cowling. The usual minor drips and items were found and cleared up during the two year down time- and a series of engine runs seemed to corroborate that the oil seepage was fixed.
Unfortunately- the seepage returned during our test flight of last Friday- so today they opened up the cowl and started searching once again. The result was that they discovered that one of the mid-case through studs was sheered inside the case. Additionally- the inner-most cooling fin on each of the #3/#4 cylinders shows a very small impact dent where (we’re assuming here) the free ends of the stud impacted the fins at the time it sheered?
Tomorrow is going to be an interesting day- as the #3/#4 cylinders will get pulled- and all of the surrounding area will get a good looking over. As would be expected- a call to TCM was rebuffed as they lack the corporate responsibility to provide any type of data support for the engine.
I thought I’d run the squawk by you all to see if anyone has had any similar experience? Anyone ever heard of such a thing? Any ideas what might cause it ? Any guesses as to whether we are looking at a minor, known problem or a more serious warning sign of potential catastrophic failure?
Obviously the experts in the shop will be making the decisions surrounding and inspection/replacement of the stud, but there is a tremendous amount of expertise here- so I thought I’d solicit….
Robert S. Randazzo
N414C
[quote][b]
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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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Do you think it would shear off if wasn’t over-torqued? If the stud failed due to abuse on a previous occasion, perhaps replacing them all might be considered. Just guessing.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 7:50 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer...
Commanders-
Seems not ALL the news surrounding N414C’s return to flight is good.
One of the dozen-or-so squawks that we listed on the airplane after purchase was that the left engine had a tendency to produce oil in the cowling. The usual minor drips and items were found and cleared up during the two year down time- and a series of engine runs seemed to corroborate that the oil seepage was fixed.
Unfortunately- the seepage returned during our test flight of last Friday- so today they opened up the cowl and started searching once again. The result was that they discovered that one of the mid-case through studs was sheered inside the case. Additionally- the inner-most cooling fin on each of the #3/#4 cylinders shows a very small impact dent where (we’re assuming here) the free ends of the stud impacted the fins at the time it sheered?
Tomorrow is going to be an interesting day- as the #3/#4 cylinders will get pulled- and all of the surrounding area will get a good looking over. As would be expected- a call to TCM was rebuffed as they lack the corporate responsibility to provide any type of data support for the engine.
I thought I’d run the squawk by you all to see if anyone has had any similar experience? Anyone ever heard of such a thing? Any ideas what might cause it ? Any guesses as to whether we are looking at a minor, known problem or a more serious warning sign of potential catastrophic failure?
Obviously the experts in the shop will be making the decisions surrounding and inspection/replacement of the stud, but there is a tremendous amount of expertise here- so I thought I’d solicit….
Robert S. Randazzo
N414C | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
01234
[quote][b]
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rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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Nico-
Seems reasonable that over-torque could cause it- but the small dents on the cooling fins makes me wonder if it wasn’t some type of stress load… I’m not much of an engineer, however…
RSR
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:08 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Engine Through-Stud Sheer...
Do you think it would shear off if wasn’t over-torqued? If the stud failed due to abuse on a previous occasion, perhaps replacing them all might be considered. Just guessing.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 7:50 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer...
Commanders-
Seems not ALL the news surrounding N414C’s return to flight is good.
One of the dozen-or-so squawks that we listed on the airplane after purchase was that the left engine had a tendency to produce oil in the cowling. The usual minor drips and items were found and cleared up during the two year down time- and a series of engine runs seemed to corroborate that the oil seepage was fixed.
Unfortunately- the seepage returned during our test flight of last Friday- so today they opened up the cowl and started searching once again. The result was that they discovered that one of the mid-case through studs was sheered inside the case. Additionally- the inner-most cooling fin on each of the #3/#4 cylinders shows a very small impact dent where (we’re assuming here) the free ends of the stud impacted the fins at the time it sheered?
Tomorrow is going to be an interesting day- as the #3/#4 cylinders will get pulled- and all of the surrounding area will get a good looking over. As would be expected- a call to TCM was rebuffed as they lack the corporate responsibility to provide any type of data support for the engine.
I thought I’d run the squawk by you all to see if anyone has had any similar experience? Anyone ever heard of such a thing? Any ideas what might cause it ? Any guesses as to whether we are looking at a minor, known problem or a more serious warning sign of potential catastrophic failure?
Obviously the experts in the shop will be making the decisions surrounding and inspection/replacement of the stud, but there is a tremendous amount of expertise here- so I thought I’d solicit….
Robert S. Randazzo
N414C 0123456789
__________ NOD32 2458 (20070813) Information __________
[quote][b]
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mashley2(at)kc.rr.com
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:17 am Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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Hello Robert,
Describe the broken area of the stud when you get it out of the case. (for example, is the fracture clean and straight, did the material neck down like a coke bottle at the fracture, was the fracture straight across like a pipe cutter or jagged like glass.) That will help determine the cause of failure from a materials standpoint.
Thanks,
Myron
[quote] ---
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moe(at)rosspistons.com
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:58 am Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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Robert,
Any chance of a fairly clear photo of both ends of the broken stud? Also, what type of engines are these?
Moe
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Myron Ashley
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 5:16 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine Through-Stud Sheer...
Hello Robert,
Describe the broken area of the stud when you get it out of the case. (for example, is the fracture clean and straight, did the material neck down like a coke bottle at the fracture, was the fracture straight across like a pipe cutter or jagged like glass.) That will help determine the cause of failure from a materials standpoint.
Thanks,
Myron
[quote]
---
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rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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Moe-
I’ll take some photos this morning once they get the piece out.
GTSIO-520Ks…
Robert
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe - Ross Racing Pistons
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 6:02 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Engine Through-Stud Sheer...
Robert,
Any chance of a fairly clear photo of both ends of the broken stud? Also, what type of engines are these?
Moe
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Myron Ashley
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 5:16 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine Through-Stud Sheer...
Hello Robert,
Describe the broken area of the stud when you get it out of the case. (for example, is the fracture clean and straight, did the material neck down like a coke bottle at the fracture, was the fracture straight across like a pipe cutter or jagged like glass.) That will help determine the cause of failure from a materials standpoint.
Thanks,
Myron
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert S. Randazzo (rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com)
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:49 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Engine Through-Stud Sheer...
Commanders-
Seems not ALL the news surrounding N414C’s return to flight is good.
One of the dozen-or-so squawks that we listed on the airplane after purchase was that the left engine had a tendency to produce oil in the cowling. The usual minor drips and items were found and cleared up during the two year down time- and a series of engine runs seemed to corroborate that the oil seepage was fixed.
Unfortunately- the seepage returned during our test flight of last Friday- so today they opened up the cowl and started searching once again. The result was that they discovered that one of the mid-case through studs was sheered inside the case. Additionally- the inner-most cooling fin on each of the #3/#4 cylinders shows a very small impact dent where (we’re assuming here) the free ends of the stud impacted the fins at the time it sheered?
Tomorrow is going to be an interesting day- as the #3/#4 cylinders will get pulled- and all of the surrounding area will get a good looking over. As would be expected- a call to TCM was rebuffed as they lack the corporate responsibility to provide any type of data support for the engine.
I thought I’d run the squawk by you all to see if anyone has had any similar experience? Anyone ever heard of such a thing? Any ideas what might cause it ? Any guesses as to whether we are looking at a minor, known problem or a more serious warning sign of potential catastrophic failure?
Obviously the experts in the shop will be making the decisions surrounding and inspection/replacement of the stud, but there is a tremendous amount of expertise here- so I thought I’d solicit….
Robert S. Randazzo
N414C | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com |
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0123456789 | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
0 | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
1 | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
2 | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
3 | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
4
__________ NOD32 2459 (20070814) Information __________
[quote][b]
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dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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We just had that happen on 14AV, and the 3 broken studs that mount the #5 jug were found inside the front cown upon opening... A crack at the top of the case was the cause of the oil leak... The case had to be replaced... 400 appx hours on this TCM io520...
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
[quote][b]
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dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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Here are a few pics of the damage...[img]cid:005e01c7de8e$7701a8c0(at)Workhorse[/img]
[img]cid:005f01c7de8e$7701a8c0(at)Workhorse[/img]
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dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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another-1
[img]cid:006a01c7de8e$7701a8c0(at)Workhorse[/img]
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
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brcamp(at)windows.microso
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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This is a common problem with IO 520s. Just ask any Bonanza or Baron owner. If anyone is adventurous, the IO550 is reputed to be much better about this, and costs very little delta to upgrade. It may be worth 500a owners getting together and doing an STC.
Bummer about TCM. I’ve had similar experiences. Prefer Lycoming engines these days, though they aren’t as smooth.
Bruce
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Owens
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 9:11 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine Through-Stud Sheer...
We just had that happen on 14AV, and the 3 broken studs that mount the #5 jug were found inside the front cown upon opening... A crack at the top of the case was the cause of the oil leak... The case had to be replaced... 400 appx hours on this TCM io520...
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
01234
[quote][b]
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dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
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brcamp(at)windows.microso
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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There was a gentleman who went through the effort to get the GO480 put on the 520s type data sheet as an approved engine. It took about 3 years, but it did get done. I don’t know what the real effect of the experimental designation he had to endure for that period was. It does appear that after the initial test period (about 40 hours of flying) the plane was usable for regular flying according to the operating limitations.
Bruce
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Owens
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:25 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine Through-Stud Sheer...
Good idea about the 550... A guy in the hangar here has a Bonanza with one and he loves it... I guess put out a call for all 12 of the existing 500A owners left to see what interest might be shown 
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
01234
[quote][b]
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dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
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amg3636(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:50 pm Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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A friend of mine had to make an emergency landing last year in a Cessna 182.
Found 2 thru bolts sheared off in the case. They think it was due to over
torque, or uneven torque on all the cylinder thru bolts.
Roland Gilliam
| Quote: | From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Reply-To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
To: <commander-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Engine Through-Stud Sheer...
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:07:50 -0700
Do you think it would shear off if wasn't over-torqued? If the stud failed
due to abuse on a previous occasion, perhaps replacing them all might be
considered. Just guessing.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S.
Randazzo
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 7:50 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer...
Commanders-
Seems not ALL the news surrounding N414C's return to flight is good.
One of the dozen-or-so squawks that we listed on the airplane after
purchase
was that the left engine had a tendency to produce oil in the cowling. The
usual minor drips and items were found and cleared up during the two year
down time- and a series of engine runs seemed to corroborate that the oil
seepage was fixed.
Unfortunately- the seepage returned during our test flight of last Friday-
so today they opened up the cowl and started searching once again. The
result was that they discovered that one of the mid-case through studs was
sheered inside the case. Additionally- the inner-most cooling fin on each
of the #3/#4 cylinders shows a very small impact dent where (we're assuming
here) the free ends of the stud impacted the fins at the time it sheered?
Tomorrow is going to be an interesting day- as the #3/#4 cylinders will get
pulled- and all of the surrounding area will get a good looking over. As
would be expected- a call to TCM was rebuffed as they lack the corporate
responsibility to provide any type of data support for the engine.
I thought I'd run the squawk by you all to see if anyone has had any
similar
experience? Anyone ever heard of such a thing? Any ideas what might cause
it ? Any guesses as to whether we are looking at a minor, known problem or
a more serious warning sign of potential catastrophic failure?
Obviously the experts in the shop will be making the decisions surrounding
and inspection/replacement of the stud, but there is a tremendous amount of
expertise here- so I thought I'd solicit..
Robert S. Randazzo
N414C
|
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Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes!
http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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Good Afternoon Roland,
It might be helpful to check to see if any cylinders had been pulled since the last build up. Some mechanics skip the part about torqueing the nuts on the opposing cylinders. I think that is a potential for setting up the uneven stresses that cause the internal breaks. Just a theory, no extensive data to show cause and effect though.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 8/14/2007 4:51:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636(at)hotmail.com writes:
| Quote: | A friend of mine had to make an emergency landing last year in a Cessna 182.
Found 2 thru bolts sheared off in the case. They think it was due to over
torque, or uneven torque on all the cylinder thru bolts.
Roland Gilliam |
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
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amg3636(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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Hi Bob ,
That makes sense, however this was the first time a cylinder had been off
since the major.
Thanks,
Roland
| Quote: | From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Reply-To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine Through-Stud Sheer...
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 17:59:00 EDT
Good Afternoon Roland,
It might be helpful to check to see if any cylinders had been pulled since
the last build up. Some mechanics skip the part about torqueing the nuts
on
the opposing cylinders. I think that is a potential for setting up the
uneven
stresses that cause the internal breaks. Just a theory, no extensive data
to
show cause and effect though.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 8/14/2007 4:51:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
amg3636(at)hotmail.com writes:
A friend of mine had to make an emergency landing last year in a Cessna
182.
Found 2 thru bolts sheared off in the case. They think it was due to over
torque, or uneven torque on all the cylinder thru bolts.
Roland Gilliam
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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Puzzles, trivia teasers, word scrambles and more. Play for your chance to
win! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_hotmailtextlink
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brcamp(at)windows.microso
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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Continental is notorious for its quality control. Sac Sky Ranch used to
do a whole presentation on this to the EAA chapter. There's no reason to
think this is impossible to happen at the factory.
Bruce
--
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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In a message dated 8/14/2007 5:18:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636(at)hotmail.com writes:
| Quote: | Hi Bob ,
That makes sense, however this was the first time a cylinder had been off
since the major.
Thanks,
Roland
|
Strike That One!!<G>
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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In a message dated 8/14/2007 5:18:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636(at)hotmail.com writes:
| Quote: | Hi Bob ,
That makes sense, however this was the first time a cylinder had been off
since the major.
Thanks,
Roland
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However, I still think under torqueing causes more problems than over torqueing. Anything that is under torqued gets stretched all the time. If it is torqued properly, it never moves.
At least, that's the theory<g>.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.c
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:39 am Post subject: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
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Folks,
Is an STC really necessary, has anybody explored a field upgrade.
I say this, because several upgrades with which I have been involved in Australian (not AC) have been done on our (near) equivalent of a 377 field approval system, with the appropriate CAR 35 (DER) input.
As a simplification, it is assumed that the extra power will be a "bonus", there was no attempt to re-certify any increased performance.
This has avoided the need to re-determine Vmc figures etc., if the upgrade is a twin.
I know it all sound a bit rough and ready, but there is little involved in putting the IO-520 in the 500A, I doubt that the IO-550 is much more of a bother, with a co-operative FAA man.
Needless to say, one would be wise to have some carefully established "informal guidelines", if in fact you just happened to be "inadvertently" taking advantage of the additional HP, and one quit. Fortunately the wonderful engine out handling of Aero Commanders in general make this somewhat less fraught than some other manufacturer's products that started with IO-470, but have acquired IO-520 along the way.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
At 03:24 AM 15/08/2007, you wrote:
[quote] Good idea about the 550... A guy in the hangar here has a Bonanza with one and he loves it... I guess put out a call for all 12 of the existing 500A owners left to see what interest might be shown
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
[b]
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