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Rick
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 113
Location: Colonial Beach, Virginia
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 Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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Yup,
I gotta' tell ya Laurie....it took me a few tries at landing my Lightning
before I could get out of the "get the tail down and 3-point" mentality....
Nose rollers---ugh, I had to "re-learn" how to land a nose-roller!
Thanks for the help Nick!!(did I scare 'ya?)
Rick
_________________________________________________________________
A new home for Mom, no cleanup required. All starts here.
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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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Rick,
I like to call them Nosedraggers, b/c that's how most people land them,
nosewheel first. I too am a tailwheel fan. I have access to a Pitts S2
here that I may take advantage of sometime.
I am finishing up my CFI right now and am back in nosedraggers. I'm flying
a Piper ArrowIII. I have to admit that that tapered wing makes it fly
better than an ArrowII, maybe like a brick with short wings with power at
idle. Landing that thing is as easy as it gets, like driving a Mack truck,
just keep it down the centerline and hold the approach speed and it just
rolls on. I did have a close one, almost took out a Sukoi.....input
roll.....wait 10 seconds......roll begins. I do miss the ability to just
roll the plane onto it's side like the Lightning.
Ah well, I can't complain too much, I'd pretty much fly anything with wings,
and some without. Brian W.
From: "Rick Bowen" <rollnloop(at)hotmail.com>
Reply-To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Taildraggers forever.......
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 01:54:12 +0000
Yup,
I gotta' tell ya Laurie....it took me a few tries at landing my Lightning
before I could get out of the "get the tail down and 3-point" mentality....
Nose rollers---ugh, I had to "re-learn" how to land a nose-roller!
Thanks for the help Nick!!(did I scare 'ya?)
Rick
_________________________________________________________________
A new home for Mom, no cleanup required. All starts here.
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
_________________________________________________________________
A new home for Mom, no cleanup required. All starts here.
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
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Rick
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 113
Location: Colonial Beach, Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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| Quote: | From: "Brian Whittingham" <dashvii(at)hotmail.com>
Reply-To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Taildraggers forever.......
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:31:09 -0500
<dashvii(at)hotmail.com>
Rick,
I like to call them Nosedraggers, b/c that's how most people land them,
nosewheel first. ...................
Ah well, I can't complain too much, I'd pretty much fly anything with
wings, and some without. Brian W.
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LOL,
I know what you mean Brian-----I know what you mean!!
Rick
N727RB
Do Not Archive
_________________________________________________________________
Puzzles, trivia teasers, word scrambles and more. Play for your chance to
win! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_hotmailtextlink
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vettin74(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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Rick...
I was not scared at all flying with you in N727RB, it was a fun experiance. As long as we are stirring up the ol tail wheel nose wheel pot i thought i might interject. There are never really problems with aeroplanes as much as there are problems with the pilot and what they do with that airplane. I to have seen a few nose draggers land hard, collapse a nose leg under and flip the plane on its back, so was it the airplane or the landing....most likley the later. I do think tail draggers are much better for grass ops then tir gears, don't see too many C182 bush planes, but either one desgined properly and flown correctly can be just as safe as the other. I fly both types on a reqgular basis so i am not just shootin in the dark here the tail wheel takes more concentration to fly during the takeoff and landing phase, but than again we are pilots here not bus drivers so a little more is expected. I have also taught many a pilot to fly the ol tail wheel and found that most of them once trained were more aware of the aircraft, its capabilities and their surroundings at the airport. May be flying nose gears have allowed us to be more relaxed group of pilots and not worry because the plane wont hurt us if we screw up alittle. Anyways this discussion could go on and on for years, ever heard of chevy vs ford, you get the picture. If we apply all of this to something pertaining to the lightning i think we can come up with a few things. Yes is is a nose gear design, this is to tailor to the general pilot group out there. dos this make it easier to land, no not really, what gets most pilots is that it only weighs half of what the airplane they came out of weighs. And it is responsive, would it be harder to transistionin to if it was a tail wheel plane, i do no think so. And last will there ever be a tail wheel lightning....YES!
nick
Rick Bowen <rollnloop(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]--> Lightning-List message posted by: "Rick Bowen"
Yup,
I gotta' tell ya Laurie....it took me a few tries at landing my Lightning
before I could get out of the "get the tail down and 3-point" mentality....
Nose rollers---ugh, I had to "re-learn" how to land a nose-roller!
Thanks for the help Nick!!(did I scare [quote][b]
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N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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Here is my input on the tail-dragger controversy (is it a controversy?) and some reasons why I think it would be a good move for a future Lightning design. Also, many potential customers have asked about a tail dragger Lightning.
People prefer to fly tail-draggers for different reasons. Probably the largest group of tail-dragger fans would say that an airplane looks better without the nose wheel. Another group prefers them because of the slight performance improvement in cruise, top speed, lower empty weight, and grass runway or rough field operations. Still another group might want to fly them for nostalgic reasons (most vintage airplanes are T/W) or perhaps that it "shows" that they are better pilots because they can handle a tail-dragger. For example, have you ever heard someone say, "See that guy (or gal), they fly tail-draggers." Whereas, you will probably never hear someone impressively say, "That guy flys a Cherokee." Oh well, I probably belong to all the above groups.
The last statement about being a tail-dragger pilot somehow making you a better pilot will probably get some peoples hackles up. That was not my intent, as I am sure that some folks that have never flown tail-draggers are great pilots. They just, up to this point, have not had or taken the opportunity to get current in conventional aircraft. And that is getting harder and harder to do in today's environment. It really is hard to find an instructor that can check you out. But once checked out and current in conventional gear airplanes, you will fly like a better pilot. How is that possible? Actually, I can usually tell if a person is tail-wheel qualified while they are taxing out, or for sure during the takeoff roll. On takeoff roll, by necessity, a tail-wheel pilot notices the need to make small heading corrections much sooner than a person who has not flown tail-wheels. Their eyes are accustomed to seeing the small deviations sooner - rather than later. A nose wheel airplane actually corrects itself to some degree on takeoff and landing roll out, where as a tail wheel airplane, needing a correction, will continue to need more and more of a correction. So the current tail wheel pilot sees that need sooner and makes the correction. I have seen nose wheel pilots let the nose swing as much as ten degrees before making a correction. Probably disaster in a tail wheel airplane. And that is why nose wheel airplanes were invented. They are easier to takeoff and land. They were designed for the weakest link. Yes, I threw that in for effect and to perhaps help you decide to go get a tail wheel endorsement. You will improve your piloting skill. And guess what, those skills will make you a better pilot in the air as well. If you are seeing smaller heading changes and making corrections quicker on the ground, you will also be doing the same in the air. Even your instrument flying will improve.
Of course the down side, as Doug has mentioned (and Pete has in the past), is that tail dragger airplanes will probably cost more to insure - certainly until you log quite a bit of T/W time. But I think your overall enjoyment and increased piloting skills will be a big benefactor. And besides, it opens up a large number of vintage airplanes for you to have the chance to fly. As I said, this is just my $.02 worth, your mileage may vary.
Blue Skies,
Buz
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pequeajim
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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As always, well said Buz
On 8/13/07, N1BZRich(at)aol.com (N1BZRich(at)aol.com) <N1BZRich(at)aol.com (N1BZRich(at)aol.com)> wrote: [quote] Here is my input on the tail-dragger controversy (is it a controversy?) and some reasons why I think it would be a good move for a future Lightning design. Also, many potential customers have asked about a tail dragger Lightning.
People prefer to fly tail-draggers for different reasons. Probably the largest group of tail-dragger fans would say that an airplane looks better without the nose wheel. Another group prefers them because of the slight performance improvement in cruise, top speed, lower empty weight, and grass runway or rough field operations. Still another group might want to fly them for nostalgic reasons (most vintage airplanes are T/W) or perhaps that it "shows" that they are better pilots because they can handle a tail-dragger. For example, have you ever heard someone say, "See that guy (or gal), they fly tail-draggers." Whereas, you will probably never hear someone impressively say, "That guy flys a Cherokee." Oh well, I probably belong to all the above groups.
The last statement about being a tail-dragger pilot somehow making you a better pilot will probably get some peoples hackles up. That was not my intent, as I am sure that some folks that have never flown tail-draggers are great pilots. They just, up to this point, have not had or taken the opportunity to get current in conventional aircraft. And that is getting harder and harder to do in today's environment. It really is hard to find an instructor that can check you out. But once checked out and current in conventional gear airplanes, you will fly like a better pilot. How is that possible? Actually, I can usually tell if a person is tail-wheel qualified while they are taxing out, or for sure during the takeoff roll. On takeoff roll, by necessity, a tail-wheel pilot notices the need to make small heading corrections much sooner than a person who has not flown tail-wheels. Their eyes are accustomed to seeing the small deviations sooner - rather than later. A nose wheel airplane actually corrects itself to some degree on takeoff and landing roll out, where as a tail wheel airplane, needing a correction, will continue to need more and more of a correction. So the current tail wheel pilot sees that need sooner and makes the correction. I have seen nose wheel pilots let the nose swing as much as ten degrees before making a correction. Probably disaster in a tail wheel airplane. And that is why nose wheel airplanes were invented. They are easier to takeoff and land. They were designed for the weakest link. Yes, I threw that in for effect and to perhaps help you decide to go get a tail wheel endorsement. You will improve your piloting skill. And guess what, those skills will make you a better pilot in the air as well. If you are seeing smaller heading changes and making corrections quicker on the ground, you will also be doing the same in the air. Even your instrument flying will improve.
Of course the down side, as Doug has mentioned (and Pete has in the past), is that tail dragger airplanes will probably cost more to insure - certainly until you log quite a bit of T/W time. But I think your overall enjoyment and increased piloting skills will be a big benefactor. And besides, it opens up a large number of vintage airplanes for you to have the chance to fly. As I said, this is just my $.02 worth, your mileage may vary.
Blue Skies,
Buz
olcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982" target="_blank"> AOL.com.
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Kayberg(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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In a message dated 8/13/2007 12:35:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, N1BZRich(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: |
Of course the down side, as Doug has mentioned (and Pete has in the past), is that tail dragger airplanes will probably cost more to insure - certainly until you log quite a bit of T/W time. But I think your overall enjoyment and increased piloting skills will be a big benefactor. And besides, it opens up a large number of vintage airplanes for you to have the chance to fly. As I said, this is just my $.02 worth, your mileage may vary.
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Could it be they cost more to insure because people wreck em more?
But I do agree with Buz that a tailwheel will impove your landing abilities (or get that all-important first crash out of the way!) And I agree with the other benifits.
I do have a taildragger rating and own a hot little taildragger that is undergoing a rebuild (no I didnt crash it yet). But I like the advantages of trigear.
I always come back to "mission profile". What do you want your plane to do for you? If you travel a lot, then having to work at making that last landing of a long cross country day can be a bit dangerous if you have a taildragger. If you are a sport pilot, particularly if you are working your way up the ratings game, then it makes more sense.
doug
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N1BZRich(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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In a message dated 8/13/2007 8:40:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Kayberg(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Could it be they cost more to insure because people wreck em more?
If you travel a lot, then having to work at making that last landing of a long cross country day can be a bit dangerous if you have a taildragger. If you are a sport pilot, particularly if you are working your way up the ratings game, then it makes more sense.
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Doug,
Well written, well thought out, and I agree with most of what you said - the rest of it is pure BS.  Just kidding of course. First, yes, insurance on T/W aircraft is more because people do wreck them more. Why, probably many reasons, including yours that says they are harder to land. But I suspect a bigger reason is people just don't fly enough to stay proficient and thus don't have the "golden hands" and the best judgement. I am very proud of the fact that I flew my Pitts for 29 years with no accidents or incidents. But, it is a very honest airplane and I flew it a lot. Proficiency and currency is important in what ever you fly, but nose wheel airplanes are definitely more forgiving. Second, your comment about tail wheels being more "dangerous" after a long day of flying - no, I can buy that. The key word I don't buy is "dangerous". Again, if you are current and proficient, they are no more dangerous than any other kind of landing gear. Remember, part of being a good pilot is judgement. If you are too tired after a long day - don't make that last flight. You should always make your personal physical condition part of your "go-no go" decision. Also, a tailwheel pilot probably thinks more about the winds, runways available, divert airfields, and other such judgement things during the flight planning process because he is flying a tail wheel airplane. In my book, he is a better pilot because he is always thinking about such things and making those items part of the planning process. Any way, as I said, your mileage may vary.
Blue Skies,
Buz
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Kayberg(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:36 pm Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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In a message dated 8/13/2007 9:15:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, N1BZRich(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | | Second, your comment about tail wheels being more "dangerous" after a long day of flying - no, I can buy that. The key word I don't buy is "dangerous". Again, if you are current and proficient, they are no more dangerous than any other kind of landing gear. Remember, part of being a good pilot is judgement. If you are too tired after a long day - don't make that last flight. You should always make your personal physical condition part of your "go-no go" decision. Also, a tailwheel pilot probably thinks more about the winds, runways available, divert airfields, and other such judgement things during the flight planning process because he is flying a tail wheel airplane. In my book, he is a better pilot because he is always thinking about such things and making those items part of the planning process. |
Demanding is the better word than dangerous.
And demanding airplanes should inspire better planning, more proficency and some decent judgement calls, I agree.
I am suggesting that a taildragger Lightning will require more of it's pilot than a tri-gear and that price will have to be paid. It will require more pilot skill and be less forgiving.
Somehow looks, lighter weight, slightly better performance can seem less important when you have lost control of your bird and are awaiting an impact with a non-runway environment.
doug
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[quote][b]
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vettin74(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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To the group.....
This is nick. i have been touring Oregon since saturday and it is great, spent some of sunday in pendelton, my dad used to be a air traffic controller there, the place is apparently a aerobatic aircraft hot bed. In the main hanger, and all based there, were: 2 eagles, 1 extra 300, decathalon, 2 sukhois, a giles 202, i think it was an edge540 or a extra 200, couldnt tell it was in the back, any way they were out with the eagle and giles when we arrived, somehow thought this relavent to our tail wheel discussion. Hiked Mt ST helens today, no words to describe that!!!
Nick
N1BZRich(at)aol.com wrote:
[quote] In a message dated 8/13/2007 8:40:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Kayberg(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Could it be they cost more to insure because people wreck em more?
If you travel a lot, then having to work at making that last landing of a long cross country day can be a bit dangerous if you have a taildragger. If you are a sport pilot, particularly if you are working your way up the ratings game, then it makes more sense.
|
Doug,
Well written, well thought out, and I agree with most of what you said - the rest of it is pure BS. Just kidding of course. First, yes, insurance on T/W aircraft is more because people do wreck them more. Why, probably many reasons, including yours that says they are harder to land. But I suspect a bigger reason is people just don't fly enough to stay proficient and thus don't have the "golden hands" and the best judgement. I am very proud of the fact that I flew my Pitts for 29 years with no accidents or incidents. But, it is a very honest airplane and I flew it a lot. Proficiency and currency is important in what ever you fly, but nose wheel airplanes are definitely more forgiving. Second, your comment about tail wheels being more "dangerous" after a long day of flying - no, I can buy that. The key word I don't buy is "dangerous". Again, if you are current and proficient, they are no more dangerous than any other kind of landing gear. Remember, part of being a good pilot is judgement. If you are too tired after a long day - don't make that last flight. You should always make your personal physical condition part of your "go-no go" decision. Also, a tailwheel pilot Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's [quote][b]
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N1BZRich(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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Doug wrote - "Somehow looks, lighter weight, slightly better performance can seem less important when you have lost control of your bird and are awaiting an impact with a non-runway environment."
Ops, sounds like you might be one of those "half empty glass" guys (verses half full) that has already decided he is going to ground loop eventually. Kind of like those that say if you haven't landed gear up, you eventually will. I am more of a positive thinker and believe that "PPPPPP" - prior planning prevents piss poor performance. At any rate, differences of opinions is what makes horse races - and my horse is faster than yours.
Blue Skies,
Buz
PS: No, I don't really have a horse, but I do have 400 of them under the hood. Did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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lozhoffman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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Hi All,
There have been excellent overviews of tail dragger vs
'nose dragger' posted by buz, nick and others which
really summarise everything important about the
comparison. Horses for courses really as has been so
well outlined. Thats the great thing about
flying...you can select from such a huge range of
types, performance, configuration and operating and
construction costs.
In one post there was reference to the increased risk
posed by taildraggers at the end of a long day due
fatigue. Reading the comments about how tail draggers
require the pilot to think more, work a little harder
and remain at a higher level of conditions awareness
near the ground, brought back memories of some
thousands of tows in Super Cub, Pawnee and Calair
glider tugs. As most often the only rostered pilot for
the day it was not uncommon for that to entail 20-30
flights and on rarer occasions 30-40.
This tended to hone one's focus on each and every
approach. Even though increasingly tired as the day
progressed it was surprising at how little the quality
of the landings deteriorated. I put this down to the
currency and recency aspects but more so to the
heightened awareness of wind conditions and
preparedness for any cross wind influence. in other
words, the taildragger extracted a high level of
performance from a very average pilot.
I dont know about licencing in the US but in Oz,
sperate licences are required for the two
configurations. Having experienced that challenge,
nose draggers tend to land more automatically and just
dont provide as much satisfaction. Actually achieving
a comfort level in tail draggers by getting enough
consolidated experience under your belt is the greater
challenge. Once there though, its great fun.
On nother matters, Brian was kind enough to email me
the flight manual (June 06) for the Lightening that
Buz developed. Conratulations on such a highly
readable, informative and logically set out piece of
writing.
Also, now that there are quite a few Lightnings
airborne, would operators mind posting some achieved
data on cruise economy and performance?
Laurie
Sydney
--- N1BZRich(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | Doug wrote - "Somehow looks, lighter weight,
slightly better performance can
seem less important when you have lost control of
your bird and are awaiting
an impact with a non-runway environment."
Ops, sounds like you might be one of those "half
empty glass" guys (verses
half full) that has already decided he is going to
ground loop eventually.
Kind of like those that say if you haven't landed
gear up, you eventually will.
I am more of a positive thinker and believe that
"PPPPPP" - prior planning
prevents piss poor performance. At any rate,
differences of opinions is what
makes horse races - and my horse is faster than
yours.
Blue Skies,
Buz
PS: No, I don't really have a horse, but I do have
400 of them under the
hood. Did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last
night.
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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Laurie
02 46531233
0425 703226
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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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Laurie,
Here in the United States, you don't have a liscense for a tailwheel
airplane, but rather an instructor sign off that says that you had ground
and flight instruction. Liscenses in the United States are Private Pilot,
Commercial Pilot, and Airline Transport Pilot. Ratings, in which you
recieve an addition to your ticket are Instrument, Multi-Engine. All your
instructor ratings are on a seperate ticket and are also considered ratings.
Sign-offs include high performance (greater than 200 hp engine), high
altitude for anything with a cieling that is rated higher than 25,000 feet,
Tailwheel, spins (not that you can't do them, but spin awareness is required
before the checkride for flight instructors), and complex aircraft with
constant speed props and retractable gear.
As far as if taildraggers are safer than nosedraggers....
I think that we can only compare apples and oranges here. Basically, it's
not a hot topic anymore since most new aircraft have nosewheels. It's not a
major killing point of pilots like weather is. I think that the only thing
that we can really say for sure is that a tailwheel version of the same
aircraft with the same pilot will cost more in insurance. It is because of
accident rates, but the way that insurance works is simply saying, ok,
there's more accidents. This doesn't take currency into account, total time
(not saying that won't make it cheaper on you), or anything like that, but
simply more landing and takeoff bumps & bruises.
My wife's grandfather was in the Army Air Corp in WWII. They would
typically solo tailwheel airplanes as little as 1-3 hours, that's total
time, not just tailwheel! Sure, there was a fair share of accidents, but I
think you'd find after they had about 10-15 hours of tailwheel time those
accident rates nearly disappeared. The key here is currency, military
currency, which most of us don't know how nice that is. It also depends on
the plane. Planes that have a long distance from the CG to the tail, planes
that have a high horsepower and low weight, or a lot of side area to the
tail. For instance, a DC-3 in a 15 knot crosswind is just too much, in a
citabria I can handle it all day long.
In summary, Pilots should either, Be Good, Be Current, or Be Lucky, and that
goes for both tailwheel and trigear pilots. Brian W.
From: Laurie Hoffman <lozhoffman(at)yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Taildraggers forever.......
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 17:12:48 -0700 (PDT)
Hi All,
There have been excellent overviews of tail dragger vs
'nose dragger' posted by buz, nick and others which
really summarise everything important about the
comparison. Horses for courses really as has been so
well outlined. Thats the great thing about
flying...you can select from such a huge range of
types, performance, configuration and operating and
construction costs.
In one post there was reference to the increased risk
posed by taildraggers at the end of a long day due
fatigue. Reading the comments about how tail draggers
require the pilot to think more, work a little harder
and remain at a higher level of conditions awareness
near the ground, brought back memories of some
thousands of tows in Super Cub, Pawnee and Calair
glider tugs. As most often the only rostered pilot for
the day it was not uncommon for that to entail 20-30
flights and on rarer occasions 30-40.
This tended to hone one's focus on each and every
approach. Even though increasingly tired as the day
progressed it was surprising at how little the quality
of the landings deteriorated. I put this down to the
currency and recency aspects but more so to the
heightened awareness of wind conditions and
preparedness for any cross wind influence. in other
words, the taildragger extracted a high level of
performance from a very average pilot.
I dont know about licencing in the US but in Oz,
sperate licences are required for the two
configurations. Having experienced that challenge,
nose draggers tend to land more automatically and just
dont provide as much satisfaction. Actually achieving
a comfort level in tail draggers by getting enough
consolidated experience under your belt is the greater
challenge. Once there though, its great fun.
On nother matters, Brian was kind enough to email me
the flight manual (June 06) for the Lightening that
Buz developed. Conratulations on such a highly
readable, informative and logically set out piece of
writing.
Also, now that there are quite a few Lightnings
airborne, would operators mind posting some achieved
data on cruise economy and performance?
Laurie
Sydney
--- N1BZRich(at)aol.com wrote:
> Doug wrote - "Somehow looks, lighter weight,
> slightly better performance can
> seem less important when you have lost control of
> your bird and are awaiting
> an impact with a non-runway environment."
>
> Ops, sounds like you might be one of those "half
> empty glass" guys (verses
> half full) that has already decided he is going to
> ground loop eventually.
> Kind of like those that say if you haven't landed
> gear up, you eventually will.
> I am more of a positive thinker and believe that
> "PPPPPP" - prior planning
> prevents piss poor performance. At any rate,
> differences of opinions is what
> makes horse races - and my horse is faster than
> yours.
> Blue Skies,
> Buz
>
> PS: No, I don't really have a horse, but I do have
> 400 of them under the
> hood. Did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last
> night.
>
>
>
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
Laurie
02 46531233
0425 703226
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit
the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
_________________________________________________________________
See what you’re getting into…before you go there
http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507
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davemcc
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 74
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
|
|
Guys
I am sure you all have seen these photos of Esqual tails, if not, enjoy
Dave Mcc
[quote] ---
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N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
|
|
Hey Dave,
Thanks for sharing those photos. I had forgotten that I had them somewhere in my files. As I recall the Esqual designer was developing this tail dragger model for possible future kit production. Makes a good looking airplane with the gear up. My thoughts (which agree with Nick) for the tail wheel Lightning would be to make it fixed gear to keep it simple and save weight. With the proper gear leg fairings and wheel pants, the speed lost verses a retract configuration would be very small.
Blue Skies,
Buz
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
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sales(at)billandruth.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
|
|
Hi All,
Three reasons I have not seriously considered buying or building a conventional gear aircraft and they all relate to money:
1. I have no experience in them and would have to pay an instructor to get it.
2. Insurance costs will be higher initially and I will never be able to recoup that expense.
3. Some day I will need to sell my aircraft and the pool of potential buyers is far larger for tri gear aircraft than conventional gear aircraft.
If the new buyer does not have conventional gear experience he will be faced with the same three considerations and that buyer will most likely decide to purchase a tri gear aircraft. This analysis may not be relevant to everyone but, it make great financial sense to me.........Bill.
Laurie Hoffman wrote:
[quote] | Quote: | --> Lightning-List message posted by: Laurie Hoffman <lozhoffman(at)yahoo.com> (lozhoffman(at)yahoo.com)
Hi All,
There have been excellent overviews of tail dragger vs
'nose dragger' posted by buz, nick and others which
really summarise everything important about the
comparison. Horses for courses really as has been so
well outlined. Thats the great thing about
flying...you can select from such a huge range of
types, performance, configuration and operating and
construction costs.
In one post there was reference to the increased risk
posed by taildraggers at the end of a long day due
fatigue. Reading the comments about how tail draggers
require the pilot to think more, work a little harder
and remain at a higher level of conditions awareness
near the ground, brought back memories of some
thousands of tows in Super Cub, Pawnee and Calair
glider tugs. As most often the only rostered pilot for
the day it was not uncommon for that to entail 20-30
flights and on rarer occasions 30-40.
This tended to hone one's focus on each and every
approach. Even though increasingly tired as the day
progressed it was surprising at how little the quality
of the landings deteriorated. I put this down to the
currency and recency aspects but more so to the
heightened awareness of wind conditions and
preparedness for any cross wind influence. in other
words, the taildragger extracted a high level of
performance from a very average pilot.
I dont know about licencing in the US but in Oz,
sperate licences are required for the two
configurations. Having experienced that challenge,
nose draggers tend to land more automatically and just
dont provide as much satisfaction. Actually achieving
a comfort level in tail draggers by getting enough
consolidated experience under your belt is the greater
challenge. Once there though, its great fun.
On nother matters, Brian was kind enough to email me
the flight manual (June 06) for the Lightening that
Buz developed. Conratulations on such a highly
readable, informative and logically set out piece of
writing.
Also, now that there are quite a few Lightnings
airborne, would operators mind posting some achieved
data on cruise economy and performance?
Laurie
Sydney
--- N1BZRich(at)aol.com (N1BZRich(at)aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | Doug wrote - "Somehow looks, lighter weight,
slightly better performance can
seem less important when you have lost control of
your bird and are awaiting
an impact with a non-runway environment."
Ops, sounds like you might be one of those "half
empty glass" guys (verses
half full) that has already decided he is going to
ground loop eventually.
Kind of like those that say if you haven't landed
gear up, you eventually will.
I am more of a positive thinker and believe that
"PPPPPP" - prior planning
prevents piss poor performance. At any rate,
differences of opinions is what
makes horse races - and my horse is faster than
yours.
Blue Skies,
Buz
PS: No, I don't really have a horse, but I do have
400 of them under the
hood. Did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last
night.
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
|
Laurie
02 46531233
0425 703226
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
|
[b]
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checkpoint2(at)comcast.ne
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:47 am Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
|
|
You are absolutely right Brian. I fly my Pt 19, WW11 open cockpit
trainer park it and bust off in my Alpi, the funny thing is the flight
numbers are all most the same, except the PT is in MPH and the Alpi is
Knots. But in both cases you must pay attention and feel the aircraft.
Thanks for all your comments. Bob Haas.
--
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Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:48 am Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
|
|
In a message dated 8/17/2007 8:16:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lozhoffman(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: |
This tended to hone one's focus on each and every
approach. Even though increasingly tired as the day
progressed it was surprising at how little the quality
of the landings deteriorated. I put this down to the
currency and recency aspects but more so to the
heightened awareness of wind conditions and
preparedness for any cross wind influence. in other
words, the taildragger extracted a high level of
performance from a very average pilot.
I dont know about licencing in the US but in Oz,
sperate licences are required for the two
configurations. Having experienced that challenge,
nose draggers tend to land more automatically and just
dont provide as much satisfaction. Actually achieving
a comfort level in tail draggers by getting enough
consolidated experience under your belt is the greater
challenge. Once there though, its great fun.
|
Just an opinion, but this writer brings up a point I have been thinking about but not communicating well.
We hear from Buz and his 29 years of flying a Pitts (not to mention a career in the US Air Force as a pilot!) and from this writer who flew many missions in a taildragger. I agree that if you have good to exceptional pilot skills AND fly frequently, the taildragger can be a no-brainer.
But what about a Private Pilot trained in Cessna 150's, who has a taildragger checkout in a Cessna 140 but only 140 hours total time in nice weather? Suppose he buys a Lightning, discovers how easy it is to make 500 mile trips, loads to aft CG and launches into a trip at dusk into gusting crosswinds on a grass strip? Would you rather see him in a taildragger or a trigear?
Due to excessive busyness, I havent flown much in the last couple months. I took off in a SkyRanger the other morning for a bit of fun and games. I noticed I gave no thought to the landings. I just pulled the power off at the bottom of a mild wingover after a high speed pass down the runway, did a full slip one way and then to the other to loose a bit of speed and since I couldnt decide which wheel to land on, I just landed on both mains! I am so familiar with the airplane, I just dont think about it much. When I parked it, a student pilot remarked how easy I made it look and that he was having trouble with his landings. I had little to say to him. It just seems so simple to me. But I only have 600 hours (Commercial, IFR) not the thousands that Buz has or perhaps this writer.
Perhaps I am concerned about nothing. But a low time or low skill pilot in a taildragger Lightning would worry me more than that same pilot in a trigear.
Doug Koenigsberg
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: Taildraggers forever....... |
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|
Bob,
Tell us more about your Alpi. I assume it would be a 200 model based on your comment about comparative speed (kts vs. mph) with your PT-19. It is a good looking aircraft, but I don't recall seeing one (other than perhaps at OSH or LAL). How does it fly? And speaking of the Ryan, did you see the red Super Ryan with the 220 HP Continental at OSH this year? That would make a fun airplane.
Blue Skies,
Buz
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
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