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Fueling high wing aircraft.

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Johann G. Johannsson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Iceland

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Hello list members.

I am sending this again, because I think it did not go through the first time.



I have been working on a way to fuel my Zenith 701 with an easy method.

The old method to syphon the fuel from a plastic container while standing

on a ladder is not the best method.

The idea was to use a high volume electric pump with a fuel filter and a

toggle switch to turn on and off.

I would like to hear from you list members how you have solved this

fueling problem and if anyone is using an electrical fuel pump for this,

what kind and how powerful is the pump, i.e. how many GPH capability?



Thank you in advance.

Johann G.

Iceland.

Joeing 701

<http://mail.mitt.is/webmail/src/download.php?absolute_dl=true&passed_id=231&ent_id=1&mailbox=Sent&sort=6&startMessage=1&show_more=0&passed_ent_id=0>

_________________
Johann G.
Iceland.
Flying Zenith 701.

hrs1(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Johann . . . go to a local farm equitment supply house or ask a farmer for 

some mailorder sources for farm equipment - most offer pumps which fit 

various containers and run off 12v.  They also have hand pumps. One supply 

house is Tractor Supply Co. www.TSCstore.com.   Let us know what you end up 

with because a lot of us older folks really don't relish the thought of 

lifting 5 gallon cans.  I didn't even like climbing up to visually check the 

fuel in a Cessna and bought a low wing Piper for that reason (among others). 

Robert Schoenberger 701



---

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Just be careful, while some pumps are suitable for diesel fuel they are

not necessarily good for gasolene...Basically flammable liquids needs to

be pumped with an explosion proof motors. The farm supply houses sell

these too but the ones I have seen are more expensive.



Beware the pickup truck mounted tank that gets left out in the

rain...Had one friend who had a narrow escape...found two gallons of

water in his header tank...His engine quit while taxiing...Thankfully!



Cheers



Frank 



--

allenricks(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

I don't like the electrical fueling systems that I've seen.  Don't

like gas and electricity together.



There is a slick but expensive system using CO2 to add low pressure

to a fuel pumping system.  There are a couple of advantages to the

system.  There is no spark introduced by a pump motor, and the CO2

provides natural explosion resistance to the container holding the

gas.



Check them out here:



http://wefuelfun.com/index.php?cid=17



I saw them cheaper at the last boat I attended than on this site

I think it was around $300 for the 16 gallon, and $400

for the 30 gallon.  I would not be as edgy storing a tank if I knew

it had CO2 instead of air in the top space of the can.



It would probably take about 10 fill ups to pay for the system.  They

were pumping water with it at the boat show to demo it, and it pumped

pretty fast.  When you're done you turn off the CO2 and vent the pressure

from the tank.



Allen Ricks

Beaverton, OR



--

marinegunner(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

An electric vehicle fuel pump with good hoses, switches and such can be used

to make a very efficient fuel pump for moving fuel from a storage tank to

the airplane tank. I find that Portorable Boat Fuel Tanks work better than

regular plastic or metal fuel tanks. Easy to carry, store with a good amount

of stability, easy to hook hose's to, etc. You can make a very good and safe

system for very little money.

--

Semper Fi,

Steven R. Hulland

CH 701, Amado, AZ



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rmsk(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:41 pm Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Hello Johann,



If you  go to  www.canadiantire.ca  and enter "Flo N' Go Home Filling  

Station" or "Flo N' Go Gas Pump" in the search bar, I think that both  

of these products may be along the same line of what you are looking  

for. I remember them from a commercial that I saw about a year ago.



The web site may ask you for a postal code, you can use mine if you  

like T9K 2T4. I'm not exactly sure how their delivery system works but  

if I can help let me know. My friend Andre and I are also building a  

ch701.



Ricardo & Andre

CH701

Fort McMurray, Alberta

rmsk(at)shaw.ca

On Friday, February 17, 2006, at 02:38 PM, Johann G. wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello list members.

 I am sending this again, because I think it did not go through the  

 first time.



 I have been working on a way to fuel my Zenith 701 with an easy method.

 The old method to syphon the fuel from a plastic container while  

 standing

 on a ladder is not the best method.

 The idea was to use a high volume electric pump with a fuel filter and  

 a

 toggle switch to turn on and off.

 I would like to hear from you list members how you have solved this

 fueling problem and if anyone is using an electrical fuel pump for  

 this,

 what kind and how powerful is the pump, i.e. how many GPH capability?


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Thank you in advance.

 Johann G.

 Iceland.

 Joeing 701

 <http://mail.mitt.is/webmail/src/ 

 download.php?absolute_dl=true&passed_id=231&ent_id=1&mailbox=Sent&sort= 

 6&startMessage=1&show_more=0&passed_ent_id=0>

Larry Portouw

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Sierra Vista/Ft. Huachuca, AZ

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:40 am Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Try this link for TSC Tractor Supply Co instead:

http://www.mytscstore.com/default.asp. Takes you straight to the store page.

 



Larry Portouw



-----------------------



 

Time: 



02:23:46 PM PST US



 



From: 



"Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1(at)frontiernet.net>



 



Subject: 



Re: Fueling high wing aircraft.



      

      

<hrs1(at)frontiernet.net>

      

      Johann . . . go to a local farm equitment supply house or ask a farmer

for 

      some mailorder sources for farm equipment - most offer pumps which fit



      various containers and run off 12v.  They also have hand pumps. One

supply 

      house is Tractor Supply Co. www.TSCstore.com.   Let us know what you

end up 

      with because a lot of us older folks really don't relish the thought

of 

      lifting 5 gallon cans.  I didn't even like climbing up to visually

check the 

      fuel in a Cessna and bought a low wing Piper for that reason (among

others). 

 

      Robert Schoenberger 701

_________________
Larry Portouw
601XL Kit (H. Stab) (on hold)
PA-22 N8141C<< This project now taking all my time.
Fort Huachuca, AZ

Mike Gleason

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 4
Location: Welch, MN

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:13 am Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Johann:

Take a look at NorthernTool.com. Look under fuel transfer, they have a 

variety of items that should work for you, unfortunately all the electrical 

pumps are Diesel Fuel only.



Mike

701 awaiting paint

---

Johann G. Johannsson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Iceland

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Hi list members.



I like to thank you all who responded with links and ideas for the fuel 

pump solution. I think I will stick with the idea to build my own system 

with an electric fuel pump from some big engine car.

I would add the fuel filter to a plate along with the fuel pump, add the 

toggle switch and then be able to strap the plate with all to any 

container I have with gasoline.

I already have all the material for the job except the fuel pump. Here 

is an idea of the pump I have in mind. 



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BLUE-HOLLEY-110-GPH-ELECTRIC-FUEL-PUMP-REGULATOR-BLACK_W0QQitemZ8039827413QQcategoryZ33555QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



This system will make it easy for me to have one hand on the fuel line 

and the other on the toggle switch.

I will send you all a picture when the setup is complete.



Again, thank you all for the help.



Regards,

Johann G.

Iceland.

www.gi.is/fis

_________________
Johann G.
Iceland.
Flying Zenith 701.

planejim(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Johann,



Be carefull operating (breaking a circuit under load) the switch in the 

vicinity of fuel vapors. Big Bang possible!



Jim Hoak



do not archive

---

Johann G. Johannsson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Iceland

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Hi Jim.



Yes, I know it is always dangerous to operate something that can create 

a spark near fuel fumes, but I think the setup I have in mind is almost 

fool proof. The switch is far away from any fumes and could easily be 

located in my pocket while the fuel transfer is in process, because the 

wire is extending from the fuel pump all the way in my hand where I 

stand in a ladder by the wing.

The toggle switch wires are also covered with tape so no way a spark 

could escape through that.

What bothered me more is when you have the fuel pump located inside the 

tank with the wires in fuel. Somehow it creeps me out to have electric 

wires going down into the fuel and then turn on the pump. But if no 

oxygen can reach the wire connections in the tank, no spark is possible.

The setup I have in mind should not be any different than a regular fuel 

transfer system in a wing or on a firewall. All wires are insulated from 

any fumes.

Hope all this makes sense.



Johann G.

Iceland.

Jim Hoak wrote:



[quote]



Johann,



Be carefull operating (breaking a circuit under load) the switch in the 

vicinity of fuel vapors. Big Bang possible!



Jim Hoak



do not archive

---

_________________
Johann G.
Iceland.
Flying Zenith 701.

marinegunner(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Makes sense, fuel pump and filter(s) can be mounted on a plate with a fuel

line going to the tank. Be sure that line can be attached to the tank so

that it does not pull out easily. Your switch wire can be fastened to the

fuel line with tie-ties and covered with plastic wrap to the point where you

diverge the switch line from the fuel line to your hand for operation. Use

an intrinsically(explosion proof) safe switch to eliminate potential spark.

Fuel vapors (not fumes as they are gaseous metals) are usually to rich or to

lean to explode, depending on distance from fuel tank opening, wind, etc.

The usual explosive range is about 3"-12" from the fuel cap. So, if you use

a system with a remote switch that is operated 3 or 4 feet from the fuel

vent, there should no big potential for explosion. Have fun building the

system.

PS When replying consider deleteing the old message in order to keep your

reply shorter. I believe most email systems can keep your mail collated.

Doing so saves space, time, etc for the moderator.

--

Semper Fi,

Steven R. Hulland

CH 701, Amado, AZ



This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned

prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus

BobTezyk

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 38
Location: Midlothian, TX

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Fueling high wing aircraft.

This may be overkill for what you want to accomplish but about 12 years ago, I built a re-fueling trailer for a Cessna 150 (and later my E35 Bonanza) I owned and ran on autogas. It worked out much better than I anticipated and more than paid for itself over buying AVGas that fouled my plugs. 



It consisted of one of those cheap trailer kits (4'x8' but a 4'X6' would work), a 100 gallon rectangular fuel tank, a marine deep cycle battery with box, a battery float charger, a large alligator clip, a cheap work light on a retractable reel, 25' of steel cloths line coated in vinyl, a 12 v 13 gpm pump purchased from a farm store and a fuel totalizer. 



The hose that came with the pump was 12' long with a ground wire built in. I bought a second 12' hose and a coupler to make a 24' hose. I gutted the retractable work light and replaced the electrical cord with the cloths line and mounted the alligator clip to the end of the cable to make a retractable ground line. The tank, battery box, battery, grounding reel were mounted on a sheet of 1/2 inch plywood decking and the pump was mounted on the tank. The whole thing was grounded together using 1 inch ground strap. 



I would fill it up on the way out to the airport and leave it in the hangar until it required re-filling. Never had a problem with it. The motors on the gasoline refueling pumps are sealed to avoid any sparking from the motor. I just followed the same procedure the refueling trucks used when they refuel any other airplane - ground the airplane to the refueler, turn on the pump, fuel, turn off the pump, remove the ground strap from the plane. 



I am currently loaning it to a neighbor as I am between airplanes right now but I will take some pictures of it in the next week or so and post them to this thread. 



Regards, 

Bob Tezyk

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Sounds like heck of a good Idea.  Wonder why you didn't just use the copper

wires in the light real for the ground.  Cu is better just won't take the

abuse at the airport.  Bob U.



---

riovista(at)bossig.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:57 am Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Ck your local codes.  Here in eastern Wa. we are only allowed about 50 gal.

without a building permit.  Anything over that kicks in a whole bunch of

draconian  regs, permits , etc.  Our airport is in the city limits and owned

by the city, so maybe the county would be more flexable?  I had a 300 gal.

gravity flow tank that worked great for my PA 140,  even had an inline

filter.  Had to dismantle it.



Ed Jeffko

Tonasket Wa

---

Johann G. Johannsson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Iceland

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Hello Bob.

Thank you for the input to this fueling problem. Yes this is just a 

little to big for what I had in mind, but a flight club should have 

something like this setup at their club.

The idea I had in mind was to be able to take the plate or board with 

the fuel pump,filter and toggle switch, with me on a longer flights. 

Could also have an empty container in luggage compartment, and when I 

needed to refuel, I would just plug the fuel pump into the 12 V outlet 

in my panel.

I would really appreciate the pictures when you have the time.



Best wishes,

Johann G.

Iceland.

do not archive.



BobTezyk wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



This may be overkill for what you want to accomplish but about 12 years ago, I built a re-fueling trailer for a Cessna 150 (and later my E35 Bonanza) I owned and ran on autogas. It worked out much better than I anticipated and more than paid for itself over buying AVGas that fouled my plugs. 



It consisted of one of those cheap trailer kits (4'x8' but a 4'X6' would work), a 100 gallon rectangular fuel tank, a marine deep cycle battery with box, a battery float charger, a large alligator clip, a cheap work light on a retractable reel, 25' of steel cloths line coated in vinyl, a 12 v 13 gpm pump purchased from a farm store and a fuel totalizer. 



The hose that came with the pump was 12' long with a ground wire built in. I bought a second 12' hose and a coupler to make a 24' hose. I gutted the retractable work light and replaced the electrical cord with the cloths line and mounted the alligator clip to the end of the cable to make a retractable ground line. The tank, battery box, battery, grounding reel were mounted on a sheet of 1/2 inch plywood decking and the pump was mounted on the tank. The whole thing was grounded together using 1 inch ground strap. 



I would fill it up on the way out to the airport and leave it in the hangar until it required re-filling. Never had a problem with it. The motors on the gasoline refueling pumps are sealed to avoid any sparking from the motor. I just followed the same procedure the refueling trucks used when they refuel any other airplane - ground the airplane to the refueler, turn on the pump, fuel, turn off the pump, remove the ground strap from the plane. 



I am currently loaning it to a neighbor as I am between airplanes right now but I will take some pictures of it in the next week or so and post them to this thread. 



Regards, 

Bob Tezyk



--------

Regards,



Bob Tezyk





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=13254#13254

_________________
Johann G.
Iceland.
Flying Zenith 701.

BobTezyk

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 38
Location: Midlothian, TX

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Fueling high wing aircraft.

Bob U:



The copper wire that came with the trouble light was only 12' long.  I wanted 25' and the only way I could fit it in the reel was to use wire that had smaller diameter than the original wire.  Fortunately, the reel spring had enough turns in it to accomodate the extra 13 feet of wire.  I only have to manually push in less than a foot of wire to get it to seat all the way down.  Considering that the reel cost was 9.99 on sale at Sears and the wire was under 5 bucks, it sure beat the $250 they wanted for a commercially made ground reel.



Ed:



Fortunately the codes in Texas and at my local airport were not as strict.  The limit was a max storage of 150 gallons in a hangar.  It was originally intended to cover the fuel a light twin may have in it when stored in a hangar but there is no specific wording that it had to be stored in the aircraft.  I just took advantage of that ommision.  When I moved from the public hangar to my airpark home in an unincorporated part of a rural county, there were no storage restrictions.  Several of my neighbors have 2000 gal tanks for 100LL. 



I did forget to mention in the original post that I installed a water absorbing filter on the tank as well.  



Do not archive

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