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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Need Kolb M3X information please. |
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My .02,
As JD said, I own his titan II SS and I still have my Firestar II which I still try to fly as much as I can.
Here are what I think are good points of comparison, though admittedly my Kolb experience is with the FS II and not the MK III:
- landing gear config. The Kolb is the clear winner if the mission requires lots of soft field ops due to the tailwheel configuration. So this is something to consider when deciding on which plane to get. The titan will still do ok on grass fields too; I've landed on grass in mine and it does fine with normal soft field technique. But the Kolb will do somewhat better, IMO, as is true of any tailwheel plane.
- STOL capability. The Kolb is going to have an advantage here, mostly due to the high lift flat bottom airfoil. The titan can still do surprisingly well in STOL with generous flap usage, but the Kolb is what you want for short field ops. If you do go with the titan and need good STOL ability, though, be sure and build it with the 26' wing option. also, the tornado II SS fixes the prop clearance proplem of the other models in a major way, allowing a prop up to 72" in length. But you get pretty large prop clearance for free on the Kolb, which is an advantage for STOL.
- Low and slow vs fast. Well, low and slow is kind of a wash here, IMO. The titan, especially with the 26' wing flies along perfectly comfortably trimmed at 70mph with the power backed off. The AOA is a little higher than you'll have with the Kolb, though, I'd say. Both planes can do this though the kolb might be more comfortable. The titan, though, is a fast plane, cruising at 100mph plus pretty easily. The Kolb won't fly quite that fast I don't believe (my FS II will do about 70 fairly comfortably, though I have to push the motor a little to go that fast).
- xwind capability. Well both planes have no-dihedral wings so both will do easy wing-low xwind landings. My FS II in fact requires practically no aileron input to do a decent wing-low xwing approach. The titan requires a little opposite aileron but not much.
That's about all the major highlights I can think of apart from the metal vs rag-and-tube and other issues.
Also I agree on wheel landings vs. 3-point. 3-pointing my FS II takes very calm conditions and super spot-on timing in the flare. I've only 3 pointed my FS II perfectly a handful of times. Wheel landings are so much easier and the Kolb is pretty docile in its handling so its not so hazardous even when a little hot (but I still try to get close to a 3-point whenever possible to insure I'm slowed down as much as possible).
LS
[quote="jindoguy(at)gmail.com"]Mike, I guess I was lucky. When I was learning to fly GA aircraft, I was never allowed to do a crabbed landing. Spence always made my keep lined up with the runway centerline by cross controlling. Darn good thing, too, because I don't think I've ever landed my Kolb in anything but a cross wind. When I first flew my Mk IIIC the only trouble I encountered, as I've documented here, was trying to land in a three point stance. Once Travis, at TNK, told me to stop doing that and wheel it on, my problems went away. A Kolb has it's idiosyncrasies but all taken together, it's about the gentlest, most forgiving plane you can buy or build.
I'm going to go knock on wood, now. 
Another thing Shawn might consider is how easy it is to get in and out of a Mk III. Should your Dad ever want to take a ride around the patch you'll really appreciate that. I just spent a week clamoring in and out of a Challenger II. Once I was in, it was a pretty comfy fit, but getting in and out was like the proverbial monkey and the football. Evaluate your choice on that criteria, too.
Rick
On 8/23/07, JetPilot <orcabonita> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita>
Shawn,
The Titan would be better in crosswinds, because of the tricycle gear. Landing a Kolb in a crosswind is tricky, as with any taildragger. With taildraggers, ground loops happen, its just a matter of time. I would never never loop, spin, or roll a Kolb, they are not made for that. With a flat bottom wing, and a huge amount of lift, air loads build up very quick and you can get a huge amount of G loading at even moderate airpseeds and a small change in pitch. Bottom line, forget about any kind of aerbatics with a Kolb.
Also the Titan airframe is just much stronger. Contrary to what some might say, the Kolb can not compare to the all metal Titan wing in streingth. If I was going to go to my fathers farm reliably on a regular basis, I would drive. By the time you get to the airport, preflight, etc. etc. you would almost be there in your car. When you factor waiting for weather which will happen sooner or later, the car is faster. People really get themselves into trouble thinking of light aircraft as "transportation", they get somewhere, and then make bad choices trying to get back in bad conditions. If I wanted an airplane I could fly in worse weather though, the Titan would handle the margional weather and summertime turbulance better than a Kolb would.
Engines, the 912 is worth the 16,000 period. People spend so much time and hassle with alternative engines, they would have been better off just to pay what a 912 or a Jabiru costs. If you can not afford that, should probably wait until you can.
Mike Bigelow
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
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LS
Titan II SS |
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promod69camaro
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Need Kolb M3X information please. |
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Hi Lucien,
It seem that I run across you on every list I subscribe to. And you own or have owned at least two planes that I am interested in. I always look forward to your responses. They are well thought out and usually just the information the poster is looking for.
I am going up in a M3X next week to see what I think. I need to keep in mind that even on a 150 mile trip, a 20 or 30 mph speed difference doesn't make much difference in terms of arrival time. But it would be nice to have it all in one package.
I bid on and won a never before used Jabiru 3300 yesterday that was on ebay. I have not heard back from the seller yet. I hope its not a scam and I will need to be careful. I think this engine would be great on a M3X or a Titan S or SS. For that matter, it would also make a slick moving Sonex. In tail dragger configuration, they are remarkably flexable.
Shawn
________
Essential Vaaapp Vaporizer
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Last edited by promod69camaro on Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Need Kolb M3X information please. |
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| promod69camaro wrote: | Hi Lucien,
It seem that I run across you on every list I subscribe to. And you own or have owned at least two planes that I am interested in. I always look forward to your responses. They are well thought out and usually just the information the poster is looking for.
I am going up in a M3X next week to see what I think. I need to keep in mind that even on a 150 mile trip, a 20 or 30 mph speed difference doesn't make much difference in terms of arrival time. But it would be nice to have it all in one package.
I bid on and won a never before used Jabiru 3300 yesterday that was on ebay. I have not heard back from the seller yet. I hope its not a scam and I will need to be careful. I think this engine would be great on a M3X or a Titan S or SS. For that matter, it would also make a slick moving Sonex. In tail dragger configuration, they are remarkably flexable.
Shawn |
The 3300 is supposed to work very well on the tornado, though I don't know about the Kolb. The 912 and 912s sound like the motors of choice on the large 2-place kolbs, mostly likely because of the ability to swing the larger props, preferred on slower planes designed more for STOL.
I've attached a couple photos of my two planes, two of the finest light a/c types you can get, IMO - the titan for go-fast, zip around, high-performance mission, and the Kolb for the magic-carpet ride mission.
Truth is, I can't identify any particular reason why I like the Kolb design so much. It's probably the construction, the folding wings and the fact that it's tailwheel. The entire airframe uses traditional aviation construction, nothing junky or screwball on the entire plane. The covering used is the Stitts process which pretty much lasts forever and there are very few wear points on the plane.
Personally, if I were going with a big Kolb, I'd do the Kolbra, mainly because of the tandem seating and what appears to be a little less wing area (so it might be less affected by the wind). It looks like the view is a little better in the Kolbra from the front seat. But I still have yet to fly in either of the big Kolbs, so I can't really make an informed judgement there....
LS
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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| my FS II and the tornado II SS I co-own |
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LS
Titan II SS |
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: Need Kolb M3X information please. |
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Lucien et al, From the experience of the rash of S-LSA Cub builders the problem with the Jab 3300 is that it takes very careful design of engine baffling to get it to cool acceptably. I believe it was Cub Crafters that wanted to run the 3300 with eyebrow baffles to make it better resemble the classic J-3. Could not get it to cool and in the end had to put it inside a full cowling. This on a tractor airplane with the big fan out front pushing air over the cylinders. Might be really tough to get it to cool in a pusher configuration like the Kolb.
Rick
On 8/27/07, lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>
promod69camaro wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Lucien,
It seem that I run across you on every list I subscribe to. And you own or have owned at least two planes that I am interested in. I always look forward to your responses. They are well thought out and usually just the information the poster is looking for.
I am going up in a M3X next week to see what I think. I need to keep in mind that even on a 150 mile trip, a 20 or 30 mph speed difference doesn't make much difference in terms of arrival time. But it would be nice to have it all in one package.
I bid on and won a never before used Jabiru 3300 yesterday that was on ebay. I have not heard back from the seller yet. I hope its not a scam and I will need to be careful. I think this engine would be great on a M3X or a Titan S or SS. For that matter, it would also make a slick moving Sonex. In tail dragger configuration, they are remarkably flexable.
Shawn
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The 3300 is supposed to work very well on the tornado, though I don't know about the Kolb. The 912 and 912s sound like the motors of choice on the large 2-place kolbs, mostly likely because of the ability to swing the larger props, preferred on slower planes designed more for STOL.
I've attached a couple photos of my two planes, two of the finest light a/c types you can get, IMO - the titan for go-fast, zip around, high-performance mission, and the Kolb for the magic-carpet ride mission.
Truth is, I can't identify any particular reason why I like the Kolb design so much. It's probably the construction, the folding wings and the fact that it's tailwheel. The entire airframe uses traditional aviation construction, nothing junky or screwball on the entire plane. The covering used is the Stitts process which pretty much lasts forever and there are very few wear points on the plane.
Personally, if I were going with a big Kolb, I'd do the Kolbra, mainly because of the tandem seating and what appears to be a little less wing area (so it might be less affected by the wind). It looks like the view is a little better in the Kolbra from the front seat. But I still have yet to fly in either of the big Kolbs, so I can't really make an informed judgement there....
LS
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131240#131240
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00053_137.jpg
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport. [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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gaman(at)att.net
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: Need Kolb M3X information please. |
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the 2200 cools nicely on my mk-3.Will the mk-3 mount system handle 120Hp?
Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> wrote:[quote] Lucien et al, From the experience of the rash of S-LSA Cub builders the problem with the Jab 3300 is that it takes very careful design of engine baffling to get it to cool acceptably. I believe it was Cub Crafters that wanted to run the 3300 with eyebrow baffles to make it better resemble the classic J-3. Could not get it to cool and in the end had to put it inside a full cowling. This on a tractor airplane with the big fan out front pushing air over the cylinders. Might be really tough to get it to cool in a pusher configuration like the Kolb.
Rick
On 8/27/07, lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>
promod69camaro wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Lucien,
It seem that I run across you on every list I subscribe to. And you own or have owned at least two planes that I am interested in. I always look forward to your responses. They are well thought out and usually just the information the poster is looking for.
I am going up in a M3X next week to see what I think. I need to keep in mind that even on a 150 mile trip, a 20 or 30 mph speed difference doesn't make much difference in terms of arrival time. But it would be nice to have it all in one package.
I bid on and won a never before used Jabiru 3300 yesterday that was on ebay. I have not heard back from the seller yet. I hope its not a scam and I will need to be careful. I think this engine would be great on a M3X or a Titan S or SS. For that matter, it would also make a slick moving Sonex. In tail dragger configuration, they are remarkably flexable.
Shawn
|
The 3300 is supposed to work very well on the tornado, though I don't know about the Kolb. The 912 and 912s sound like the motors of choice on the large 2-place kolbs, mostly likely because of the ability to swing the larger props, preferred on slower planes designed more for STOL.
I've attached a couple photos of my two planes, two of the finest light a/c types you can get, IMO - the titan for go-fast, zip around, high-performance mission, and the Kolb for the magic-carpet ride mission.
Truth is, I can't identify any particular reason why I like the Kolb design so much. It's probably the construction, the folding wings and the fact that it's tailwheel. The entire airframe uses traditional aviation construction, nothing junky or screwball on the entire plane. The covering used is the Stitts process which pretty much lasts forever and there are very few wear points on the plane.
Personally, if I were going with a big Kolb, I'd do the Kolbra, mainly because of the tandem seating and what appears to be a little less wing area (so it might be less affected by the wind). It looks like the view is a little better in the Kolbra from the front seat. But I still have yet to fly in either of the big Kolbs, so I can't really make an informed judgement there....
LS
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131240#131240
Attachments:
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: Need Kolb M3X information please. |
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Gary, Two cylinders next to each other are easier to cool as even without baffling airflow gets to three sides of each cylinder. Put in that middle cylinder and airflow only gets to the top and bottom of it. Add to that its heat is now transferred to the two end cylinders, hence the need for baffling.
I've asked the guys at the Jab booths I've visited at Arlington and Lakeland why they don't offer the engines in A) a bead blasted dull aluminum finish for more surface area to better remove heat, B) a flat black finish, or C) a bead blasted flat black finish. They have no answer, even though the VW guys have been using those three options to improve cooling for at least 40 years. NIH attitude I guess.
Rick
do not archive
On 8/28/07, gary aman <gaman(at)att.net (gaman(at)att.net)> wrote: | Quote: | the 2200 cools nicely on my mk-3.Will the mk-3 mount system handle 120Hp?
Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Lucien et al, From the experience of the rash of S-LSA Cub builders the problem with the Jab 3300 is that it takes very careful design of engine baffling to get it to cool acceptably. I believe it was Cub Crafters that wanted to run the 3300 with eyebrow baffles to make it better resemble the classic J-3. Could not get it to cool and in the end had to put it inside a full cowling. This on a tractor airplane with the big fan out front pushing air over the cylinders. Might be really tough to get it to cool in a pusher configuration like the Kolb.
Rick
On 8/27/07, lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" < lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>
promod69camaro wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Lucien,
It seem that I run across you on every list I subscribe to. And you own or have owned at least two planes that I am interested in. I always look forward to your responses. They are well thought out and usually just the information the poster is looking for.
I am going up in a M3X next week to see what I think. I need to keep in mind that even on a 150 mile trip, a 20 or 30 mph speed difference doesn't make much difference in terms of arrival time. But it would be nice to have it all in one package.
I bid on and won a never before used Jabiru 3300 yesterday that was on ebay. I have not heard back from the seller yet. I hope its not a scam and I will need to be careful. I think this engine would be great on a M3X or a Titan S or SS. For that matter, it would also make a slick moving Sonex. In tail dragger configuration, they are remarkably flexable.
Shawn
|
The 3300 is supposed to work very well on the tornado, though I don't know about the Kolb. The 912 and 912s sound like the motors of choice on the large 2-place kolbs, mostly likely because of the ability to swing the larger props, preferred on slower planes designed more for STOL.
I've attached a couple photos of my two planes, two of the finest light a/c types you can get, IMO - the titan for go-fast, zip around, high-performance mission, and the Kolb for the magic-carpet ride mission.
Truth is, I can't identify any particular reason why I like the Kolb design so much. It's probably the construction, the folding wings and the fact that it's tailwheel. The entire airframe uses traditional aviation construction, nothing junky or screwball on the entire plane. The covering used is the Stitts process which pretty much lasts forever and there are very few wear points on the plane.
Personally, if I were going with a big Kolb, I'd do the Kolbra, mainly because of the tandem seating and what appears to be a little less wing area (so it might be less affected by the wind). It looks like the view is a little better in the Kolbra from the front seat. But I still have yet to fly in either of the big Kolbs, so I can't really make an informed judgement there....
LS
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131240#131240
Attachments:
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--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport. [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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