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capav8r(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
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From your primary flight training days, remember the alternate static source and what happened to the instruments when it was used? Cockpit pressure is low due to the venturi effect of the slipstream flowing by. However, cruise is not where the CO problem is. It is taxi, runup and other modes of flight where the airspeed is low.
It seems as though the problem extends from the malicious intent of those sympathetic to the Soviet Union trying to get back as us darn Americans. I don't remember having this as a problem in the Pitts and Extra I've flown in!!
Has anyone tried using a small personal oxygen system to increase the oxygen sat of the blood and make it harder for CO to lock onto the hemoglobin? Doc???
Craig
[quote][b]
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
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On Aug 28, 2007, at 5:28 AM, Craig Winkelmann wrote:
| Quote: | Has anyone tried using a small personal oxygen system to increase
the oxygen sat of the blood and make it harder for CO to lock onto
the hemoglobin? Doc???
|
Unless you completely block out all external CO-containing air, it
won't help. The blood's affinity for CO is hundreds of times higher
than it is for O2 so the CO will bind with the hemoglobin anyway even
though the concentration of CO is low and O2 is high. No, the only
solution is to eliminate the CO in the inspired air.
I still like the idea of the full-face mask being fed from a source
of good (no CO) ambient air taken from a location known to be free of
CO, perhaps out on the wing. Heck, put another pitot tube out there
and use that. (You can pretend it is another .50cal.  That is much
simpler than filters or catalysts as nothing would need to be
periodically replaced. Combine it with a diluter-demand regulator or,
better still, one of the newer pulse-demand O2 systems and it will
help at altitude too.
Of course one could always just fix the problem and put on a proper
exhaust system.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
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AND seal up all the orifices inside the wing root panels and around the nose
gear actuator. Just doing that should reduce the CO levels considerably.
Dennis
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david(at)mcgirt.net
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
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I did that, now I am hot as hell, as there is NO airflow in the cockpit, but
plenty of exhaust in ground ops..
On 8/28/07 10:38 AM, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:
[quote]
AND seal up all the orifices inside the wing root panels and around the nose
gear actuator. Just doing that should reduce the CO levels considerably.
Dennis
---
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
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Well said. Bernouli’s equation dictates why there is a venture effect in fluid dynamic settings.
The O2 setup is one option as long as you are using a closed system. IE. An Aviators mask tightly fitting on the face to prevent entrainment of ambient cockpit air. That is then hooked to the CRU-121 diluter demand consol which has a direct line from your 02 tank. You will have to breathe 100% O2. You cannot use a diluter demand consol to supply the 02 set to the Normal position. You will have to select 100% so that you have a closed system. Otherwise, you will be inhaling mixed cockpit air because the diluter demand consol meters air and 02 appropriate for your present barometric pressure.
Having the little nasal prongs sticking in your nose entraining cockpit air around the sides of the prongs is not going to you a bit of good. Look at Carbon Monoxide as the little kid eyeing the candy jar just after Momma told him not to take any! He can’t keep his hands out of it!
Ok, Carbon Monoxide has an affinity for Hemoglobin that is on an order of 200 times that of Oxygen. Just let that Hemoglobin pass by with CO present in the Alvoelus and it is going to win the race with 02 to the Hb box car every time. For the system that you are speaking of to work, you have to raise the partial pressure of Oxygen well above that of carbon monoxide. That is the principle we use when we put someone with severe CO poisoning in the Altitude Chamber or have them spend the night in the hospital on a 100% 02 mask get serial blood gases drawn. The nasal canula at its best will only supply 29% 02 concentration in the nasophranyx. At 50 to 100 ppm CO, that is not going to prevent CO poisoning, just slow it down a little.
For the personal 02 system to be effective, it has to be a closed system. I can get the remanufactured system for roughly $3300.
I currently am using a SCUBA system for fresh air when in ground ops. If I stay with this system, I will have to move the PTT switch from the throttle to the stick so I talk on the radio when my mask is down.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Winkelmann
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 7:29 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit
From your primary flight training days, remember the alternate static source and what happened to the instruments when it was used? Cockpit pressure is low due to the venturi effect of the slipstream flowing by. However, cruise is not where the CO problem is. It is taxi, runup and other modes of flight where the airspeed is low.
It seems as though the problem extends from the malicious intent of those sympathetic to the Soviet Union trying to get back as us darn Americans. I don't remember having this as a problem in the Pitts and Extra I've flown in!!
Has anyone tried using a small personal oxygen system to increase the oxygen sat of the blood and make it harder for CO to lock onto the hemoglobin? Doc???
Craig
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
01234
[quote][b]
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dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
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david(at)mcgirt.net
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject: Smoke and CO in the Cockpit |
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On Aug 28, 2007, at 11:43 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
| Quote: |
<dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com>
Which is the lesser of the two evils? You'll either sweat to
death or suffocate from CO poisoning. At least you'll know if
you're sweating to death.
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Seems to me that there are two problems with some overlap:
1. CO from the exhaust in the cockpit;
2. lack of cooling air in the cockpit.
Seems both problems should be addressed.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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