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Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200
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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

From what I've read it's true the vinyl-ester  resins are more resistant to ethanol contamination.  A couple of  questions are; How resistant? and What does Ethanol do to the seals in  your fuel system. 

About the only thing around that is more corrosive  than Ethanol is Methanol and I think we are splitting hairs there.  Best  thing to do is not to use fuel contaminated with Ethanol.  There are other  reasons which I don't want to go into here.  Its enough to say the alcohol  and flying are not good mates.

Now!

The good news is...

There is a guy  on the Avid list who lives in, as he calls it, La La land.  He has been  successfully flying on Ethanol contaminated fuel for years by pre-mixing the  fuel for his two stroke Rotax engine.  Apparently the oil protects the  tanks from the effects of Ethanol.   A while ago he installed a Jab.   I understand he has been using a bit of oil, I'm not sure about the  concentration, in his gas and has had no problems with Ethanol having lunch on  his tanks.



Pre mixing contaminated gasoline with oil can lead to  separation of the oil from the gas.  Definitely not good!  I think  (not sure) this will only happen at lower temperatures.  It is something to  consider.



There is at least one company out there today that makes  retro-fit rotary moulded tanks that are resistant to the effects of  Ethanol.  Just another idea for you to check  out.

 

[img]cid:328065201(at)01092007-2ADB[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 

 

  

 



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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

Not Poly but Aflac resin fiberglass. That is the same resin used for 

underground tanks at the gas station. Should work fine for the plane. 

Our tank troubles are with the vintage glass tanks. Don't remember 

when the switch was made but is was done by Frank at Skystar.



Paul

============



At 07:51 PM 8/31/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I realy doubt that MOGAS is ethanol free. I will find out in the 

next few days. Are new kitfox kits with poly tanks or still 

fiberglass? Does someone make poly tanks to replace mine? Thanks again..



--------

_______________________________________

Giovanni Day

Model 4 speedster 912





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132168#132168

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

The MTBE isn't the culprit.  It is a carcinogen, or that's the word but it

doesn't have the appetite for water or resin that alcohols have.



Aviation fuels use a lead additive.  Where every you buy your 100LL you will

be getting the exact same stuff....  MOGAS, the only thing you can say is it

is flammable.  If you do use LL in your 912 make sure you are using a

mineral oil in the base of the engine.  Synthetic oils hate the lead and

take their dislike out on your engine.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

Politicians for farming areas are pushing for the  alcohol to replace MTBE.  It's still available in several areas certainly  North of the 49th.  But even in out fair land politics is going to  contaminate the gas supply.



One would expect that MOGAS sold at an  airport would be free of alcohol.  The dangers of alcohol as associated  with flight are well known.  Selling poisoned gas at an aerodrome, to me,  should be considered a felony.  People associated with selling fuel at  airports are not as un informed as the general public on the effects of the fuel  they sell but we can't forget the politics that have inflicted us with this  Ethanol fiasco in the first place. It never ceases to amaze me that some elected  cretins on both sides of the border actually think that ethanol is  clean.  Then why would they want to know the truth... They're buying votes  with hooch, a time honoured pastime!

 

 

[img]cid:237491702(at)01092007-2AE2[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 

 

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

If you mean Rotax. They have said not problem with alcohol. So if one uses auto hoses and Al lines that part of the system should be OK. Of course Sub engines wont care unless one uses non Sub parts.

 Paul

 ==============

 At 07:58 PM 8/31/2007, you wrote:



 [quote]From what I've read it's true the vinyl-ester resins are more resistant to ethanol contamination.  A couple of questions are; How resistant? and What does Ethanol do to the seals in your fuel system. 

 About the only thing around that is more corrosive than Ethanol is Methanol and I think we are splitting hairs there.  Best thing to do is not to use fuel contaminated with Ethanol.  There are other reasons which I don't want to go into here.  Its enough to say the alcohol and flying are not good mates.

 Now!

 The good news is...

 There is a guy on the Avid list who lives in, as he calls it, La La land.  He has been successfully flying on Ethanol contaminated fuel for years by pre-mixing the fuel for his two stroke Rotax engine.  Apparently the oil protects the tanks from the effects of Ethanol.   A while ago he installed a Jab.  I understand he has been using a bit of oil, I'm not sure about the concentration, in his gas and has had no problems with Ethanol having lunch on his tanks.



 Pre mixing contaminated gasoline with oil can lead to separation of the oil from the gas.  Definitely not good!  I think (not sure) this will only happen at lower temperatures.  It is something to consider.



 There is at least one company out there today that makes retro-fit rotary moulded tanks that are resistant to the effects of Ethanol.  Just another idea for you to check out.



 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20070831202105.01e667c0(at)sisna.com.1[/img]  



 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)



  



 

 



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thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

If this is old news, sorry,  but to test for ethanol, get a skinny bottle, 

add small amount of water, mark top of water with marker, add about 5 times 

more gas than water, shake well and then let sit.  No ethenal, and the water 

will settle out and end up at the same place as the mark you made.  With 

ethenal, water level will go up.  Jim Chuk   Avid Mk IV  Jabiru

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Giovanni Day" <thedays(at)mchsi.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:51:16 -0700






I realy doubt that MOGAS is ethanol free. I will find out in the next few 

days. Are new kitfox kits with poly tanks or still fiberglass? Does someone 

make poly tanks to replace mine? Thanks again..



--------

_______________________________________

Giovanni Day

Model 4 speedster 912





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132168#132168






	


_________________________________________________________________

Discover sweet stuff waiting for you at the Messenger Cafe.  Claim your 

treat today! 

http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline2

Giovanni Day

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 43

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

My sump tool actually has marks on it to test for ETOH and is how I planned on testing the MOGAS. Thanks for the reminder though.

_________________
_______________________________________
Giovanni Day
Model 4 speedster 912

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

Better yet.  Up here in Minnesota, we can buy ethenol free gas that is 

labled for collector cars, boats and snowmobiles.  I do check every once in 

a while just to keep them honest.  Thanks,  Jim Chuk

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Giovanni Day" <thedays(at)mchsi.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:44:45 -0700






My sump tool actually has marks on it to test for ETOH and is how I planned 

on testing the MOGAS. Thanks for the reminder though.



--------

_______________________________________

Giovanni Day

Model 4 speedster 912





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132179#132179






	


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Share your special parenting moments! 

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Giovanni Day

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 43

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

My next thought was CAM2 race fuel if still available and affordable.

_________________
_______________________________________
Giovanni Day
Model 4 speedster 912

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:57 am Post subject: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

A few points are screaming at  me to be made.

  

 Auto hoses are opaque the  impulse line on my plane is clear urethane so I can see if there is anything  combing up the line from the base of the engine.  I have no idea what  Ethanol will do to that line or for that matter the clear primer lines  either.

  

 Ethanol will corrode  aluminium.  That's one of the reasons truckers don't want to transport the  stuff.  Stainless steel will probably work.  Now who is it who makes  stainless steel carbs???  

  

 The seals in your Rotax may be  somewhat resistant to Ethanol... can you say the same thing for the Mikuni fuel  pump???

  

 There are many other issues  about allowing Ethanol in the fuel tank of any airplane... excluding possibly  turbine aircraft.  The affinity to water, a good thing to have in your fuel  system and the effect it has on vapour lock and carb ice are just a few items I  didn't want to get into here.  

  

 Yes it can be done BUT.... not  without a reduced safety factor.  Save your Ethanol for the end of the  day!  Then consume it with an olive!

  

 Noel

 [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:14 am Post subject: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

Just a note the gas that is left on top of the test will have no alcohol in

it.  That is the same procedure used to remove alcohol form your gas.  The

problem is you also reduce the octane rating of the gas.  Now if you could

buy MTBE to bring the octane rating up again...



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Giovanni Day

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 43

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

I did a little research on my kit. It was ordered in 03/31/97 and delivered 04/30/97 from Skystar. Does anyone know if the tanks would have been made of the new Aflac resin?



I also found a packing list that includes Kreem Fuel tank liner, Quart. Makes me think the switch had not been made on the resin yet.



Maybe the Kreem is the amber stuff coming out?? On the web I find it says it is "Resistant to alcohol and gasohol; withstands most octane boosters" but who knows back in 1997.



I do know this, what ever it is comes clean very easily with carb cleaner.

_________________
_______________________________________
Giovanni Day
Model 4 speedster 912

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

Giovanni,

My kit was made mid '99 - supposedly well after the switch was made to the

new resin - and the kit included Kreem.  I didn't use it.  No problems in

180 hours.



I think your kit was after the change too, but hopefully someone who knows

for sure will respond.



Randy Daughenbaugh,  N10NH

Black Hills of South Dakota, - Near Mount Rushmore

Home Strip, Grass   Room in Hangar for visitors

Series 5/7 (7 Firewall Forward) 912S, Warp Drive Taper Tip

Gross Weight 1320 lbs, Flying since November 2004 

Does anyone know if the tanks would have been made of the new Aflac resin?



_______________________________________

Giovanni Day

Model 4 speedster 912





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132500#132500

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

barry(at)pgtc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

I bought my Model IV kit in 1996 and used the Kreem in the tanks.  I have 

been flying since 2000 and have had no problem with fuel contamination nor 

water in the fuel.  My fuel lines are a combination of the rubber hoses and 

aluminum that came with the kit.  The site gages turned dark, got brittle 

and one of them broke departing Oshkosh in 2006.  I replaced them with nylon 

tubing that is not as transparent but still works and has not been a 

problem.



Barry West



---

Mark.Napier(at)sciatl.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:23 am Post subject: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

I resealed my leaking left 6 gal tank with Kreem about 2 years ago.  I

bought three quart cans of the stuff so I could sure there was enough

volume in there to reach all the spots.  Real fun to turn the wing this

way and that to get all surfaces covered.



Before that I used acetone to clean the tanks out.  Says use MEK but the

acetone dissolved the old Kreem (from about 1991) just fine.  The new

sealer has been doing just fine since then.



However, I noticed something while trying to clean up after the fact.

After drying for a few days the new Kreem would not dissolve in acetone.

MEK "bleached" it some but didn't dissolve it.  Since this stuff was

clogging the vent tube of my gas cap and my old filter screen I forgot

to remove I started trying other things.  Denatured alcohol didn't

remove it.  Nor did brake cleaner.  Or that carb cleaner that comes in a

bucket you dip parts into.  Or Varsol.  Or anything else I tried.



So I pitched the old screen and spent some quality time with a piece of

thick safety wire digging the stuff out of my vent tube.



Now I didn't have any Methanol to try but I doubt it will touch it.



FWIW,



Mark Napier



--

Mark.Napier(at)sciatl.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

I resealed my leaking left 6 gal tank with Kreem about 2 years ago.  I

bought three quart cans of the stuff so I could be sure there was enough

volume in there to reach all the spots.  Real fun to turn the wing this

way and that to get all surfaces covered.



Before that I used acetone to clean the tanks out.  Says use MEK but the

acetone dissolved the old Kreem (from about 1991) fairly quick and left

the fiberglass clean.  The newly sealed tank has been leak free since

then.



However, trying to clean up later was a real chore.  After drying for a

few days the new Kreem would not dissolve in acetone.  MEK "bleached" it

some but didn't dissolve it.  Since this stuff was clogging the vent

tube on my gas cap and my old filter screen I forgot to remove I started

trying other things.  Denatured alcohol didn't remove it.  Nor did brake

cleaner.  Or that carb cleaner that comes in a bucket you dip parts

into.  Or Varsol.  Or anything else I had handy.



So I just replaced the old tank screen and spent some quality time with

a piece of thick safety wire digging the stuff out of my vent tube.



Now I didn't have any Methanol to try but I doubt it will touch it.



FWIW,



Mark Napier



--

Giovanni Day

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 43

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Amber residue in 912 intake Model 4-1200

I did some checking and found that conco fuel has no alcohol. I also find that the inside of the tanks have a coating of the amber stuff that is coming out in the intake manifolds. I tested the fuel in the tanks for alcohol and did not find any. Could be that because it is unstable and the alcohol evaporates faster is has since evaporated. 

Not sure what to think at this point.

_________________
_______________________________________
Giovanni Day
Model 4 speedster 912

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