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sftester2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: New guy with questions

I've been looking at various ultralight-like flying things lately, and the 

various Kolbs are looking more than a little interesting, but before I spend 

all my beer money on something I figure it's best to do a bit of research. I 

haven't found anything locally (just north of Houston), but there's a 

Firestar KXP and Twinstar MkII close enough to both my location and price 

range that I could fly them home in a couple of days. They seem to have just 

about everything I want, pusher, tailwheel, and easily folded wings, but the 

question is whether I'll fit in 'em. I'm 6'4" and 265 pounds. Is it possible 

to cram me into a Kolb and still get off the ground?



And is there anyone in/around Houston with a Firestar (preferably a KXP) or 

a Twinstar MkII that would be willing to show me their plane and answer a 

half million questions?

-- 

Steve

"If you're normal the crowd will accept you, but if you're deranged the

crowd will make you their leader." -Titus

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:08 am Post subject: New guy with questions

Steve, I'm not quite as heavy at 225 in summer flying gear, and 6'1" so I can't advise you on how well you'll fit except to say that I'm quite comfy in my MkIII and I think you'd be okay in it. 

What I will advise you is to make sure any aircraft you consider, that does not qualify as an ultralight, and neither of those you've mentioned does, is registered and has an airworthiness certificate as an experimental light sport aircraft (E-LSA). While there may still be time to get all the paperwork done and the process done, the deadline of Jan. 31, 2008 is approaching rapidly.  

Here's some tips to get a better price on the aircraft if you decide to buy an unregistered, illegal aircraft. 

Pick out an "N" number and order it online from FAA.gov, today. 

Get the EAA or Rainbow Aviation Services registration kit immediately and mail off form 8050-88A and 8050 -1 to the FAA as soon as humanly possible. Don't forget to have 8050-88A notarized. 

There's no law that says you can't do this before you buy the aircraft.

Now you have a hammer to beat the owner's price down. Don't tell him/her that you've started the registration process, just remind the owner that their aircraft is going to be either a pile of parts, or a really cool lawn ornament after 1-31-2008 and you're taking a real chance (and you are) buying their aircraft.  

If you can't get the FAA to come out and do the paperwork, and the chances of that in your area are slim and nil, a designated airworthiness representative (DAR) is going to charge you $300 to $500 for those papers. If your DAR demands a current conditional inspection, and some are as a CYA move, add another $300 to $500 for that service. Then there's all the work to have your aircraft legal, Weight and Balance, $75 to $100, if you can't do that yourself. Placarding and instrument marking, the DEA tag, and the rest. All of which will cost you time and/or money. 

Deduct all of the above from the asking price plus any bargaining money and keep reminding the owner about the drop dead date for getting it registered.

DO NOT let anyone tell you you can just register it as experimental-amateur built (E-AB) if you miss the date. A look at form 8050-88 will immediately reveal why YOU CAN'T. 



Rick



On 9/1/07, SFTester2 <sftester2(at)gmail.com (sftester2(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "SFTester2" <sftester2(at)gmail.com (sftester2(at)gmail.com)>



I've been looking at various ultralight-like flying things lately, and the

various Kolbs are looking more than a little interesting, but before I spend 

all my beer money on something I figure it's best to do a bit of research. I

haven't found anything locally (just north of Houston), but there's a

Firestar KXP and Twinstar MkII close enough to both my location and price 

range that I could fly them home in a couple of days. They seem to have just

about everything I want, pusher, tailwheel, and easily folded wings, but the

question is whether I'll fit in 'em. I'm 6'4" and 265 pounds. Is it possible 

to cram me into a Kolb and still get off the ground?



And is there anyone in/around Houston with a Firestar (preferably a KXP) or

a Twinstar MkII that would be willing to show me their plane and answer a

half million questions? 



	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

sftester2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: New guy with questions

Richard Girard wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Steve, I'm not quite as heavy at 225 in summer flying gear, and 6'1"

 so I can't advise you on how well you'll fit except to say that I'm

 quite comfy in my MkIII and I think you'd be okay in it.


	


That's what I'm thinking. I figure that if I can fit in a 150 for more than 

a few hours in a row, a Kolb should be spacious.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Pick out an "N" number and order it online from FAA.gov, today.


	


I think I still have N205FT reserved, can't remember if I renewed it. I 

reserved it when I bought a set of KR-1 plans a couple of years ago.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Get the EAA or Rainbow Aviation Services registration kit immediately

 and mail off form 8050-88A and 8050 -1 to the FAA as soon as humanly

 possible. Don't forget to have 8050-88A notarized.

 There's no law that says you can't do this before you buy the

 aircraft.

 Now you have a hammer to beat the owner's price down. Don't tell

 him/her that you've started the registration process, just remind the

 owner that their aircraft is going to be either a pile of parts, or a

 really cool lawn ornament after 1-31-2008 and you're taking a real

 chance (and you are) buying their aircraft.

 If you can't get the FAA to come out and do the paperwork, and the

 chances of that in your area are slim and nil, a designated

 airworthiness representative (DAR) is going to charge you $300 to

 $500 for those papers. If your DAR demands a current conditional

 inspection, and some are as a CYA move, add another $300 to $500 for

 that service. Then there's all the work to have your aircraft legal,


	


Yeah, with all the homebuilders around here and the (usually fortunate) lack 

of polyester on the ramps, I had planned on needing a DAR. I desperately 

need to find and make friends with the local EAA guys, and not just for this 

project.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Weight and Balance, $75 to $100, if you can't do that yourself.


	


Fortunately W/B is easy. Annoying, but not tough. Hardest part is getting 

the race shop to let me borrow their scales for a few hours, though they may 

think it's worth it to have an airplane in their parking lot 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Placarding and instrument marking, the DEA tag, and the rest. All of

 which will cost you time and/or money.

 Deduct all of the above from the asking price plus any bargaining

 money and keep reminding the owner about the drop dead date for

 getting it registered. DO NOT let anyone tell you you can just

 register it as experimental-amateur built (E-AB) if you miss the

 date. A look at form 8050-88 will immediately reveal why YOU CAN'T.


	


I'm still trying to figure out exactly what it is that says you can't 

register it as EXAB. The only difference between a fat UL and a kitplane is 

that it's been flown (illegally) before it's registered. What's really 

interesting is that the first choice is:



"More than 50% of the above-described aircraft was built from miscellaneous 

parts and I am the owner."



It doesn't mention where those parts came from or who put them together, 

just that they're parts and who owns them and the pile they were thrown in. 

So find one item on the 51% checklist, complete it, and call it an EXAB, 

apply for the repairman's cert, and fly off the 40 hours. Not arguing, just 

stating how I understood the process, and hoping someone can point out the 

flaw in my logic. Also, if it's already been registered, couldn't one just 

unbuild 51% of it, by the checklist, rebuild it (documenting all steps), and 

register it as newly built? The 40 hrs would have to be flown off again, but 

it would be new by the FAAs rules.

-- 

Steve

"If you're normal the crowd will accept you, but if you're deranged the

crowd will make you their leader." -Titus

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: New guy with questions

Steve, The answer is on form 8050-88, the form for E-AB. It requires a receipt from the kit manufacturer or a pile of receipts from aircraft vendors. How are you going to get those? A receipt from the builder won't do as it makes it plain to anyone with two neurons to rub together that you are not the builder. One or two receipts from Aircraft Spruce and Wick's won't cut it either since they won't add up to an airplane. 

Then there's the builder's log. How are you going to put that together?

Last, a used airplane looks used, not your freshly built pride and joy still out gassing the aroma of resins, glues and PolyFiber.

 You might be able to find a willing DAR to fake all of the above, or ignore the lack, but that's a mighty big might with an awful lot of money in the balance. 

Last there's that little bugaboo of both of you committing perjury at the federal level. How much will a DAR charge to risk loosing all his certificates permanently.  

Personally, I recommend leaving perjury to the pros, like Attorney's General. 



Rick



On 9/1/07, SFTester2 < sftester2(at)gmail.com (sftester2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "SFTester2" < sftester2(at)gmail.com (sftester2(at)gmail.com)>



Richard Girard wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Steve, I'm not quite as heavy at 225 in summer flying gear, and 6'1"

 so I can't advise you on how well you'll fit except to say that I'm 

 quite comfy in my MkIII and I think you'd be okay in it.


	


That's what I'm thinking. I figure that if I can fit in a 150 for more than

a few hours in a row, a Kolb should be spacious.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Pick out an "N" number and order it online from  FAA.gov, today.


	


I think I still have N205FT reserved, can't remember if I renewed it. I

reserved it when I bought a set of KR-1 plans a couple of years ago.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Get the EAA or Rainbow Aviation Services registration kit immediately 

 and mail off form 8050-88A and 8050 -1 to the FAA as soon as humanly

 possible. Don't forget to have 8050-88A notarized.

 There's no law that says you can't do this before you buy the

 > aircraft.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Now you have a hammer to beat the owner's price down. Don't tell

 him/her that you've started the registration process, just remind the

 owner that their aircraft is going to be either a pile of parts, or a 

 really cool lawn ornament after 1-31-2008 and you're taking a real

 chance (and you are) buying their aircraft.

 If you can't get the FAA to come out and do the paperwork, and the

 chances of that in your area are slim and nil, a designated 

 airworthiness representative (DAR) is going to charge you $300 to

 $500 for those papers. If your DAR demands a current conditional

 inspection, and some are as a CYA move, add another $300 to $500 for 

 that service. Then there's all the work to have your aircraft legal,


	


Yeah, with all the homebuilders around here and the (usually fortunate) lack

of polyester on the ramps, I had planned on needing a DAR. I desperately 

need to find and make friends with the local EAA guys, and not just for this

project.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Weight and Balance, $75 to $100, if you can't do that yourself.


	


Fortunately W/B is easy. Annoying, but not tough. Hardest part is getting 

the race shop to let me borrow their scales for a few hours, though they may

think it's worth it to have an airplane in their parking lot 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Placarding and instrument marking, the DEA tag, and the rest. All of 

 which will cost you time and/or money.

 Deduct all of the above from the asking price plus any bargaining

 money and keep reminding the owner about the drop dead date for

 getting it registered. DO NOT let anyone tell you you can just 

 register it as experimental-amateur built (E-AB) if you miss the

 date. A look at form 8050-88 will immediately reveal why YOU CAN'T.


	


I'm still trying to figure out exactly what it is that says you can't 

register it as EXAB. The only difference between a fat UL and a kitplane is

that it's been flown (illegally) before it's registered. What's really

interesting is that the first choice is:



"More than 50% of the above-described aircraft was built from miscellaneous 

parts and I am the owner."



It doesn't mention where those parts came from or who put them together,

just that they're parts and who owns them and the pile they were thrown in.

So find one item on the 51% checklist, complete it, and call it an EXAB, 

apply for the repairman's cert, and fly off the 40 hours. Not arguing, just

stating how I understood the process, and hoping someone can point out the

flaw in my logic. Also, if it's already been registered, couldn't one just 

unbuild 51% of it, by the checklist, rebuild it (documenting all steps), and

register it as newly built? The 40 hrs would have to be flown off again, but

it would be new by the FAAs rules.

--

Steve

"If you're normal the crowd will accept you, but if you're deranged the 

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

sftester2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: New guy with questions

Richard Girard wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Steve, The answer is on form 8050-88, the form for E-AB. It requires a

 receipt from the kit manufacturer or a pile of receipts from aircraft

 vendors. How are you going to get those? A receipt from the builder

 won't do as it makes it plain to anyone with two neurons to rub

 together that you are not the builder. One or two receipts from

 Aircraft Spruce and Wick's won't cut it either since they won't add

 up to an airplane.

 Then there's the builder's log. How are you going to put that

 together? Last, a used airplane looks used, not your freshly built

 pride and joy still out gassing the aroma of resins, glues and

 PolyFiber.

 You might be able to find a willing DAR to fake all of the above, or

 ignore the lack, but that's a mighty big might with an awful lot of

 money in the balance.

 Last there's that little bugaboo of both of you committing perjury at

 the federal level. How much will a DAR charge to risk loosing all his

 certificates permanently.

 Personally, I recommend leaving perjury to the pros, like Attorney's

 General. 


	


I hate beaurocracy.



What's irritating me is that they aren't making this information easy, or 

even difficult, to find. It's bloody near impossible. And if you go by 

what's on the forms you're apparently not doing it right. 8050-88 

specifically says that you certify that the airplane was built from less 

than half preassembled parts, and that you own it. Nowhere does it say 

anything about having built it.



I think I'm about to chuck it all and find a new hobby.

-- 

Steve

"If you're normal the crowd will accept you, but if you're deranged the

crowd will make you their leader." -Titus

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject: New guy with questions

Steve, Go to FAR 21.191h and 21.191i (1-3) That spells out the difference between E-AB, E-LSA and S-LSA, at least as far as the registration process.

As far as the info being hard to find, the EAA packet or the Rainbow Aviation Services makes the LSA registration process easily understandable. 

To me it's a half full, half empty argument. Part 103 and ultralights were a gift, a darn nice gift at that. People cheated until the issue was forced and instead of repealing, The FAA gave us another gift, Light Sport Aircraft, a truly spectacular gift. A whole new starting point for climbing up the ladder of ratings and a whole new range of affordable aircraft. 

I certainly didn't mean to put you off, just try to keep you from getting taken by an unscrupulous aircraft seller and a way to negotiate a better price on a yet to be registered aircraft.

If that's all it takes to frustrate you and make you want to quit, then perhaps it's for the best. 



Rick



On 9/1/07, SFTester2 <sftester2(at)gmail.com (sftester2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "SFTester2" <sftester2(at)gmail.com (sftester2(at)gmail.com)>



Richard Girard wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Steve, The answer is on form 8050-88, the form for E-AB. It requires a 

 receipt from the kit manufacturer or a pile of receipts from aircraft

 vendors. How are you going to get those? A receipt from the builder

 won't do as it makes it plain to anyone with two neurons to rub 

 together that you are not the builder. One or two receipts from

 Aircraft Spruce and Wick's won't cut it either since they won't add

 up to an airplane.

 Then there's the builder's log. How are you going to put that 

 together? Last, a used airplane looks used, not your freshly built

 pride and joy still out gassing the aroma of resins, glues and

 PolyFiber.

 You might be able to find a willing DAR to fake all of the above, or 

 ignore the lack, but that's a mighty big might with an awful lot of

 money in the balance.

 Last there's that little bugaboo of both of you committing perjury at

 the federal level. How much will a DAR charge to risk loosing all his 

 certificates permanently.

 Personally, I recommend leaving perjury to the pros, like Attorney's

 General. 


	


I hate beaurocracy.



What's irritating me is that they aren't making this information easy, or 

even difficult, to find. It's bloody near impossible. And if you go by

what's on the forms you're apparently not doing it right. 8050-88

specifically says that you certify that the airplane was built from less 

than half preassembled parts, and that you own it. Nowhere does it say

anything about having built it.



I think I'm about to chuck it all and find a new hobby.

--

Steve

"If you're normal the crowd will accept you, but if you're deranged the 

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: New guy with questions

In a message dated 9/1/2007 5:24:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  sftester2(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I think    I'm about to chuck it all and find a new hobby.

--  

	


 

   Steve,  Don't give up, just join the Dark side, You know, The  Ultralight guys. We have very few restrictions and a lot of fun.

  

 The Firefly is an amazing Aircraft.

  

 Steve B

 Firefly 007



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

  [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: New guy with questions

 	  jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  Steve, The answer is on form 8050-88, the form for E-AB. It requires a receipt from the kit manufacturer or a pile of receipts from aircraft vendors. How are you going to get those? A receipt from the builder won't do as it makes it plain to anyone with two neurons to rub together that you are not the builder. One or two receipts from Aircraft Spruce and Wick's won't cut it either since they won't add up to an airplane. 

Then there's the builder's log. How are you going to put that together?

Last, a used airplane looks used, not your freshly built pride and joy still out gassing the aroma of resins, glues and PolyFiber.

 You might be able to find a willing DAR to fake all of the above, or ignore the lack, but that's a mighty big might with an awful lot of money in the balance. 

Last there's that little bugaboo of both of you committing perjury at the federal level. How much will a DAR charge to risk loosing all his certificates permanently.  

Personally, I recommend leaving perjury to the pros, like Attorney's General. 



Rick

	




Well remember, you don't have to show necessarily that _you_ were the builder to get an Exp A/B AW certificate for the plane. As long as you can show 51% of it was built by _an_ amateur for recreation/education you can get the AW cert. 



Documentation that you built it is only required if you want the repairman's certificate for it.



If it's a Kolb, the chances are vert very very good it was built from a pile of parts or a kit, and practically as good that it was built by an amateur. A builder's log for the plane would certainly be worth its weight in gold in this respect for sure, so of course look for that being available for the plane if you intend to buy it.



But Exp A/B still seems very doable for most unregistered fat-UL's from what I can see, though the repairmans certificate might be a lot harder to obtain...



LS

It's

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: New guy with questions

Lucien, You still don't address how you're going to make an old airplane look freshly built. Good luck with that one.



Rick



On 9/1/07, lucien  <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>

jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Steve, The answer is on form 8050-88, the form for E-AB. It requires a receipt from the kit manufacturer or a pile of receipts from aircraft vendors. How are you going to get those? A receipt from the builder won't do as it makes it plain to anyone with two neurons to rub together that you are not the builder. One or two receipts from Aircraft Spruce and Wick's won't cut it either since they won't add up to an airplane. 

 Then there's the builder's log. How are you going to put that together?

 Last, a used airplane looks used, not your freshly built pride and joy still out gassing the aroma of resins, glues and PolyFiber. 

  You might be able to find a willing DAR to fake all of the above, or ignore the lack, but that's a mighty big might with an awful lot of money in the balance.

 Last there's that little bugaboo of both of you committing perjury at the federal level. How much will a DAR charge to risk loosing all his certificates permanently. 

 Personally, I recommend leaving perjury to the pros, like Attorney's General. 



 Rick




	




Well remember, you don't have to show necessarily that _you_ were the builder to get an Exp A/B AW certificate for the plane. As long as you can show 51% of it was built by _an_ amateur for recreation/education you can get the AW cert. 



Documentation that you built it is only required if you want the repairman's certificate for it.



If it's a Kolb, the chances are vert very very good it was built from a pile of parts or a kit, and practically as good that it was built by an amateur. A builder's log for the plane would certainly be worth its weight in gold in this respect for sure, so of course look for that being available for the plane if you intend to buy it. 



But Exp A/B still seems very doable for most unregistered fat-UL's from what I can see, though the repairmans certificate might be a lot harder to obtain...



LS

It's



--------

LS

 FS II





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132298#132298



 

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: New guy with questions

Lucien et al, The guinea hens woke me up at dawn, again, and in the early morning clarity I thought of a very simple way to settle this debate.

All those who think an existing, i.e. built and flying, illegal aircraft can be certificated Experimental - Amateur Built, do this. 

Create a legal binding contract with the person to whom you are giving this advice that says you will buy the aircraft, at it's full purchase price plus any money spent on DAR fees, N numbers and the like, if you're wrong. 

My guess is the silence will be deafening.



Rick



On 9/1/07, Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)> wrote: [quote]Lucien, You still don't address how you're going to make an old airplane look freshly built. Good luck with that one. 



Rick



On 9/1/07, lucien  <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		    --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>

jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Steve, The answer is on form 8050-88, the form for E-AB. It requires a receipt from the kit manufacturer or a pile of receipts from aircraft vendors. How are you going to get those? A receipt from the builder won't do as it makes it plain to anyone with two neurons to rub together that you are not the builder. One or two receipts from Aircraft Spruce and Wick's won't cut it either since they won't add up to an airplane. 

 Then there's the builder's log. How are you going to put that together?

 Last, a used airplane looks used, not your freshly built pride and joy still out gassing the aroma of resins, glues and PolyFiber. 

  You might be able to find a willing DAR to fake all of the above, or ignore the lack, but that's a mighty big might with an awful lot of money in the balance.

 Last there's that little bugaboo of both of you committing perjury at the federal level. How much will a DAR charge to risk loosing all his certificates permanently. 

 Personally, I recommend leaving perjury to the pros, like Attorney's General. 



 Rick




	




Well remember, you don't have to show necessarily that _you_ were the builder to get an Exp A/B AW certificate for the plane. As long as you can show 51% of it was built by _an_ amateur for recreation/education you can get the AW cert. 



Documentation that you built it is only required if you want the repairman's certificate for it.



If it's a Kolb, the chances are vert very very good it was built from a pile of parts or a kit, and practically as good that it was built by an amateur. A builder's log for the plane would certainly be worth its weight in gold in this respect for sure, so of course look for that being available for the plane if you intend to buy it. 



But Exp A/B still seems very doable for most unregistered fat-UL's from what I can see, though the repairmans certificate might be a lot harder to obtain...



LS

It's



--------

LS 

 FS II





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132298#132298 



 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List  

takes on a whole new meaning 

when you live at the airport. 	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: Re: New guy with questions

 	  jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  Lucien, You still don't address how you're going to make an old airplane look freshly built. Good luck with that one.



Rick

	




Huh? It doesn't have to have been freshly built, whatever that means. 



Again, for the AW certificate, all you need is documentation that the plane was amateur built by some amateur builder for recreation/education. Doesn't matter when it was built or who built it (the builder doesn't even have to be alive anymore).



You're probably still thinking of the repairman's cert, which can only be granted to the original builder.



But even if you don't have the repairman's cert., that only means you can't do the annual condition inspection unless you're an AnP.....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:00 am Post subject: New guy with questions

Lucien, I'm not confused about anything we're talking about on the issue of  E-AB certification as a substitute for E-LSA certs. Let me put my post from early this morning in very plane English. pun intended.

You're guessing you're right, and you're wrong, period.  

Except as an aberration, no DAR or FAA official is ever going to sign off a fat ultralight, ultralight trainer, or other previously built and flown illegal aircraft as E-AB because someone missed the 1-31-08 deadline.  

First, go to the EAA and let them tell you how wrong your guesses are. Their experts know as much about E-AB requirements as anyone on the planet. That's their business and they're very, very good at it.

Then have the decency to come back and apologize to the forum.  

If you're too lazy to check with the experts and still insist on passing out this rubbish in the guise of good advice, put your money where your mouth is.

Sign a legally binding binding contract with Steve, or anyone else willing to take your misinformed guessing as good advice, saying you'll buy the aircraft, at its full purchase price, 

when you're proven wrong.



Rick



On 9/2/07, lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote: [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" < lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>

jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Lucien, You still don't address how you're going to make an old airplane look freshly built. Good luck with that one.



 Rick 




	




Huh? It doesn't have to have been freshly built, whatever that means.



Again, for the AW certificate, all you need is documentation that the plane was amateur built by some amateur builder for recreation/education. Doesn't matter when it was built or who built it (the builder doesn't even have to be alive anymore). 



You're probably still thinking of the repairman's cert, which can only be granted to the original builder.



But even if you don't have the repairman's cert., that only means you can't do the annual condition inspection unless you're an AnP..... 



LS



--------

LS

FS II





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132334#132334 

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:15 am Post subject: Re: New guy with questions

 	  jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  Lucien, I'm not confused about anything we're talking about on the issue of  E-AB certification as a substitute for E-LSA certs. Let me put my post from early this morning in very plane English. pun intended.

You're guessing you're right, and you're wrong, period.  

	




Sorry, but you need to review the rules for experimental a/b certification. 



If you can show it was amateur built, you can get it certificated as experimental amateur built.



I don't know where you're getting your information that all this has changed, but I'd suggest not consulting those sources anymore. All this is in the regs....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: New guy with questions

Richard G/Lucien:



Would it not be sufficient to post your reference reg, to include page, 

paragraph, and line?



Think that would end your arguments.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: Re: New guy with questions

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  Richard G/Lucien:



Would it not be sufficient to post your reference reg, to include page, 

paragraph, and line?



Think that would end your arguments.



john h

mkIII 	




The relevant FARs for Experimental certificates are in FAR part 21 subpart H. 



The rules concerning amateur built certification start in 21.191 and continue on from there.



Like I said, this is all in the regs, when in doubt read the rules....



I think steve is simply confusing the difference between ELSA and EAB regarding the EAA's comments about the grace period that expires in Jan. 



The rules for EAB have changed very little with the introduction of ELSA to my knowledge and it's still available for anything that flies through the air and can be shown to have been 51% built by an amateur for recreation/education. 

Dem's the facts....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: New guy with questions

John, Tried that once, maybe the second time is the charm. FAR 21.191 covers the issuance of experimental certificates. 21.191g is E-AB. 21.191i (1) covers E-LSA before 1-31-2008. (2) and (3) covers after that date.



 Rick



PS going out to build a new radiator mount for the Mk III. Much more interesting.



On 9/2/07, John Hauck < jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" < jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 Richard G/Lucien:



Would it not be sufficient to post your reference reg, to include page,

paragraph, and line?



Think that would end your arguments. 

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:38 am Post subject: New guy with questions

Lucien, Thanks for taking the time to prove my point. And I quote:

21.191 Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes:

21.191(g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction process solely for their own education or recreation. 



No where does it say "for the purpose of a used aircraft bought complete and ready to fly"



Rick



On 9/2/07, lucien < lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" < lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>

John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Richard G/Lucien:



 Would it not be sufficient to post your reference reg, to include page,

 > paragraph, and line?
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Think that would end your arguments.



 john h

 mkIII


	




The relevant FARs for Experimental certificates are in FAR part 21 subpart H.



The rules concerning amateur built certification start in  21.191 and continue on from there.



Like I said, this is all in the regs, when in doubt read the rules....



I think steve is simply confusing the difference between ELSA and EAB regarding the EAA's comments about the grace period that expires in Jan. 



The rules for EAB have changed very little with the introduction of ELSA to my knowledge and it's still available for anything that flies through the air and can be shown to have been 51% built by an amateur for recreation/education. 

Dem's the facts....



LS



--------

LS

FS II





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132347#132347 

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: New guy with questions

See also AC 20-27F, downloadable in PDF format. Paragraph 7 g (1) discusses kit built aircraft. 

Notice the matrix of eligibility and the big fat X in the INELIGIBLE column for the scenario "You hired someone to build the aircraft for you, and hiring this person means you DID NOT FABRICATE  AND ASSEMBLE THE MAJOR PORTION OF THE AIRCRAFT. Note: Capitalization mine. 

Now, I'm not sure how you can construe buying a used, unregistered, previously flown aircraft as anything other than you paid to have the aircraft constructed for you.

Also note that 7 f (2) and 7 g (3) concerns taking over projects, f is for plans built aircraft, g is for kit built. Both describe keeping the previous builder's log and adding your efforts to them. Both end with the sentence, "This information may help us to determine that your aircraft is eligible for amateur-built certification." 

What are you going to show the DAR or FAA. "Here's a picture of me pulling the airplane from the hangar." Here's a picture of me putting it on the trailer". Or, alternately, "Here's a picture of me flying the aircraft away."  

Whoa, boy, worked up a sweat doing that part of the fabrication and assembly.

 You keep saying the rules are the rules, Well there you have them.



Rick





 9/2/07, Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)> wrote: [quote]Lucien, Thanks for taking the time to prove my point. And I quote: 

21.191 Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes:

21.191(g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction process solely for their own education or recreation. 



No where does it say "for the purpose of a used aircraft bought complete and ready to fly"



Rick



On 9/2/07,  lucien < lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" < lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>

John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Richard G/Lucien:



 Would it not be sufficient to post your reference reg, to include page, 

 > paragraph, and line?
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Think that would end your arguments.



 john h

 mkIII


	




The relevant FARs for Experimental certificates are in FAR part 21 subpart H.



The rules concerning amateur built certification start in  21.191 and continue on from there.



Like I said, this is all in the regs, when in doubt read the rules....



I think steve is simply confusing the difference between ELSA and EAB regarding the EAA's comments about the grace period that expires in Jan. 



The rules for EAB have changed very little with the introduction of ELSA to my knowledge and it's still available for anything that flies through the air and can be shown to have been 51% built by an amateur for recreation/education. 

Dem's the facts....



LS



--------

LS

FS II





Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132347#132347 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List  Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning 

when you live at the airport. 

	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: New guy with questions

 	  jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  See also AC 20-27F, downloadable in PDF format. Paragraph 7 g (1) discusses kit built aircraft. 

Notice the matrix of eligibility and the big fat X in the INELIGIBLE column for the scenario "You hired someone to build the aircraft for you, and hiring this person means you DID NOT FABRICATE  AND ASSEMBLE THE MAJOR PORTION OF THE AIRCRAFT. Note: Capitalization mine.

	




No, this statement addresses building the plane _for hire_. It does _not_ suggest a general requirement that _you_ have to be the original builder of the aircraft.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Now, I'm not sure how you can construe buying a used, unregistered, previously flown aircraft as anything other than you paid to have the aircraft constructed for you. 	




Huh? Easy - if the plane was originally built by an amateur solely for the purpose of recreation/education AND you can document that, the plane was amateur-built. Where are you getting this stuff?



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Also note that 7 f (2) and 7 g (3) concerns taking over projects, f is for plans built aircraft, g is for kit built. Both describe keeping the previous builder's log and adding your efforts to them. Both end with the sentence, "This information may help us to determine that your aircraft is eligible for amateur-built certification." 

What are you going to show the DAR or FAA. "Here's a picture of me pulling the airplane from the hangar." Here's a picture of me putting it on the trailer". Or, alternately, "Here's a picture of me flying the aircraft away."  

Whoa, boy, worked up a sweat doing that part of the fabrication and assembly.

 You keep saying the rules are the rules, Well there you have them.

	




Yep, you really do need to reread them, it doesn't sound like you've looked at them too carefully to me. 



Nothing you've presented supports anything you're saying. 



Nobody ever said the regs allowed getting an EAB certificate for a plane WITHOUT satisfying the requirements for that certification. You still have to do that, clearly. 



And finally.....



 	  Quote: 	
		  Lucien, Thanks for taking the time to prove my point. And I quote: 

21.191 Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes:

21.191(g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction process solely for their own education or recreation. 



No where does it say "for the purpose of a used aircraft bought complete and ready to fly"

	




Exactly and nobody ever said otherwise.



Now, notice the regs ONLY say "which has been fabricated and assembled by persons..... soley for their own education and recreation"........



The reg does NOT say "only if you built the plane can you get the AW cert" or some such..... 



It only has to have been amateur built and can be documented as such....



hence my point....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: New guy with questions

Lucien, This is getting pointless. The EAA will get back to me in a day or two and I'll post their reply. I need to check in with my airworthiness guy at the FSDO anyway, so I'll ask Jim, too, get his take and publish. 

If I'm wrong, and I'm not, I'll buy you a cold one sometime.



Rick

On 9/2/07, lucien < lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" < lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>

jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   See also AC 20-27F, downloadable in PDF format. Paragraph 7 g (1) discusses kit built aircraft.

 > Notice the matrix of eligibility and the big fat X in the INELIGIBLE column for the scenario "You hired someone to build the aircraft for you, and hiring this person means you DID NOT FABRICATE  AND ASSEMBLE THE MAJOR PORTION OF THE AIRCRAFT. Note: Capitalization mine. 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  


	




No, this statement addresses building the plane _for hire_. It does _not_ suggest a general requirement that _you_ have to be the original builder of the aircraft.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Now, I'm not sure how you can construe buying a used, unregistered, previously flown aircraft as anything other than you paid to have the aircraft constructed for you. 


	




Huh? Easy - if the plane was originally built by an amateur solely for the purpose of recreation/education AND you can document that, the plane was amateur-built. Where are you getting this stuff?

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Also note that 7 f (2) and 7 g (3) concerns taking over projects, f is for plans built aircraft, g is for kit built. Both describe keeping the previous builder's log and adding your efforts to them. Both end with the sentence, "This information may help us to determine that your aircraft is eligible for amateur-built certification." 

 What are you going to show the DAR or FAA. "Here's a picture of me pulling the airplane from the hangar." Here's a picture of me putting it on the trailer". Or, alternately, "Here's a picture of me flying the aircraft away." 

 Whoa, boy, worked up a sweat doing that part of the fabrication and assembly.

  You keep saying the rules are the rules, Well there you have them.




	




Yep, you really do need to reread them, it doesn't sound like you've looked at them too carefully to me. 



Nothing you've presented supports anything you're saying.



Nobody ever said the regs allowed getting an EAB certificate for a plane WITHOUT satisfying the requirements for that certification. You still have to do that, clearly. 



And finally.....

 	  Quote: 	
		   Lucien, Thanks for taking the time to prove my point. And I quote:

 21.191 Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes:

 21.191(g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction process solely for their own education or recreation. 



 No where does it say "for the purpose of a used aircraft bought complete and ready to fly"




	




Exactly and nobody ever said otherwise.



Now, notice the regs ONLY say "which has been fabricated and assembled by persons..... soley for their own education and recreation"........ 



The reg does NOT say "only if you built the plane can you get the AW cert" or some such.....



It only has to have been amateur built and can be documented as such....



hence my point....



 LS



--------

LS

FS II





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132392#132392

 

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

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