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Getting through ELSA

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The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: Getting through ELSA

Hi All,



I am in the process of getting my FS II through the ELSA hoops. Has anyone else completed the process yet ? I realize Arty Trost did her drifter recently but , I was looking for more of a Kolb specific info and was wondering what your inspectors were looking for during their inspections.



Unfortunately, the FAA is delegated this process to DAR's. This may may have its good points but, I'm not real happy that I may have to pay for this service that the FAA once did for free.  



For me, I have two planes (I have a Drifter 447 as well) to get through the process. So I take a hit twice, and depending upon the DAR, this can be in excess of $1000.00 by the time it is all said and done,  



So I'm trying to gather information about the process so that I can get through it the first time with hopefully very little difficulty.



Thank You for your Help



Carlos 

AKA BaronVonEvil

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Lanny Fetterman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 37
Location: Catawissa Pa.

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: Getting through ELSA

Carlos and all, I went through the ELSA process last year. The inspector 

looked at everything that is listed on the EAA pre-inspection sheet, (too 

much to list here). He checked that every bolt he could see was the correct 

length for it`s application, and that there were two threads sticking out 

past the nut.

	He found two things I had to do before he passed my FSII. First he 

required that I strap down my 12 volt battery, up to that time it was in a 

battery box and was held in place by the battery cables. He felt if I ever 

crashed or went inverted, the battery may come free and fly around the 

cockpit. Second he required that I put torque seal on all the self locking 

nuts, so that I could tell if they were coming loose during my preflight 

inspection.

	 I thought both of these suggestions were valuable, and completed them as 

soon as I could.

	 The FAA inspector I had was there to help me get through the process, not 

to make my life miserable. He was concerned with my safety and the 

airworthiness of the aircraft. By the same token, If my FSII was unsafe, he 

would not hesitate to refuse to issue the airworthiness 

certificate.    Lanny Fetterman       November five niner eight lima 

foxtrott.  ( I`m practicing my radio skills ).

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_________________
Lanny Fetterman Firestar II N598LF

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: Getting through ELSA

Baron, It depends on the DAR. How much variance can there be between DAR's? How long is a piece of string? Some just want your paperwork in order and cha ching. Other's, the good ones, IMHO, spend an hour or two with you and the aircraft.  

At least one, with whom I have personal experience, wanted a conditional inspection in the aircraft's log book, and never even went into the hangar to look at the aircraft. I know, because I did the conditional inspection and I was sitting in the office and saw the whole thing. He came in, handed the owner the paperwork, took the cash, chatted for a bit, got back in his car and drove away. 20 minutes for $400. Of course he did the paperwork at home and is a slow typist, so maybe he earned his money, at least in his own mind, if not anyone else's. 

Another I know, does a thorough inspection, not only to see that you have all the requirements, placards, instrument markings, and such, but effectively does a conditional inspection, since he sees his sign off as the equivalent, which, for legal purposes, it is.  

He scared the **** out of one aircraft's owner with a long list of the things he recommended fixing. You should have seen the owner's face light up when his instructor, from whom he bought the aircraft, explained that the DAR was real anal about the details. The list came with the certificate, so relax. 

Another example, the E-LSA trike I flew to get my logbook endorsement while I was at Sun n Fun, had the most common, glaring error one can make, and got away with it. 

When I inspected the aircraft's documents, prior to my first flight, using the standard AROW method, I saw that the manufacturer was listed as Air Creations on both the registration and the airworthiness certificate.  

Now, common knowledge is that the builder of any experimental aircraft is the manufacturer, right? I thought the instructor had put trick documents in the aircraft to see if I would catch it, so I asked how in the world that had gotten through? It seems the aircraft had been put through the process in 2004, just after the LSA rule became law. The registration was done by Lockwood Aviation, from whom my instructor bought the trike, and it had slipped through. Their were no DAR's with the function code for E-LSA then and the inspection had been done by the FAA. The process was brand new and it slipped by since all the paperwork was in agreement. Go figure. 

Because there is this kind of leeway in the process, the best thing you can do is ask the DAR. For the kind of money he/she is getting, a DAR should be willing to take the time to explain anything of personal interest, so when he/she does come out, everything goes smoothly.

If it's the paperwork you're worried about, I recommend the pack from Rainbow Aviation Services. It's five bucks well spent, because Carol puts in sample forms so you can see how they all must tie together. 

The #1 failure, as documented by others on this forum, is not having EXACTLY the same entry in boxes requiring the same information on different forms. Simple stuff like calling your plane a Baron Von Evil Firestar II on one form and a Baron Von Evil FS II on another is a failure. 

Hope this helps.



Rick



On 9/1/07, The BaronVonEvil <grageda(at)innw.net (grageda(at)innw.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "The BaronVonEvil" <grageda(at)innw.net (grageda(at)innw.net)>



Hi All,



I am in the process of getting my FS II through the ELSA hoops. Has anyone else completed the process yet ? I realize Arty Trost did her drifter recently but , I was looking for more of a Kolb specific info and was wondering what your inspectors were looking for during their inspections. 



Unfortunately, the FAA is delegated this process to DAR's. This may may have its good points but, I'm not real happy that I may have to pay for this service that the FAA once did for free.



For me, I have two planes (I have a Drifter 447 as well) to get through the process. So I take a hit twice, and depending upon the DAR, this can be in excess of $1000.00 by the time it is all said and done,  



So I'm trying to gather information about the process so that I can get through it the first time with hopefully very little difficulty.



Thank You for your Help



Carlos

AKA BaronVonEvil



 



	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

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Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Getting through ELSA

With the deadline looming, I got off my butt and got to work.  The process took me about 2 months from submitting for the registration to getting my certificate.  (I got my FSII an E-LSA certificate a few weeks ago)  



I bought the EAA transition kit and I found it helpful.  The forms are straight off the FAA website, but what is helped me is the tip sheet on how to fill them out is included.  This was all basic stuff, but I did not check any wrong boxes and the paperwork was all in order.



I used the "Affidavit of Ownership" for my Registration even though I could have come up with the receipts.  Sample was in the kit.



I did the condition inspection and signed it as the "owner".  I used the generic form from the kit.



My certificate lists the manufacturer as "Kolb" and the data plate says the same.  This is how the kit instructed me to complete the documents.  You can look it up N24989 to see.



I used the format for the W&B from the kit and did not use the Kolb % format.  It is the same thing, but presented in the FAA way.



I used the "program letter" from the kit.



Joe Noris at the EAA was helpful giving me advice and answered some paperwork questions I had.  My W&B did not work out with a "170 pilot" and Joe told me it must.  I added 12# of lead strap to the nose and that cured that.



I was lucky to have the FAA FSDO office in town and one of the guys said he would do the inspection for me if he picked the time.  So when he gave me the date and time I made myself available too.



He did a walk around the aircraft, looked at the controls, moved the controls, asked a few questions, looked it over again and we went to the paper work.  He said it looked fine.



My plane had 9TT so he issued the Operating Limitations w/o a Phase 1 and really no limitations outside of the the LSA rules.   I needed to endorse the log book that it flies.  



Gave me the pink slip and told me to fly away and be careful.



I know the local DAR charges $500 (what I heard anyway) and another, about 150 miles from here quoted me $300 + Expenses.   The FAA FSDO charged me $0, but I do pay a lot of taxes for this.



So now I am legal and I was able to buy real liability insurance.  If I land it in the bean field I do not need to worry about someone dialing 911 and the sheriff and the FAA showing up.



I found a lot of good advice reading the list and some of you helped me off-list.  Thank you all.



Jim

do not archive

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Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Getting through ELSA

Hi All,



Thank you for the info. I guess I'm a little miffed about the whole ELSA business. 



I'll get through it eventually.  



Best Regards

Carlos

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MKIIIX040

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 123
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: Getting through ELSA

Jim, sounds like you slid through the process petty slick.

I think some luck was also involved.

I have both EAA reg kits, EAB & ELSA.

The ELSA I have says to enter your name as manufacturer if you built it. 

Otherwise use KOLB.



Did you build it?

Either way good on you.!

No wonder we're all confused.



Vic,  do not archive

Xtra 912

ready for a test flight in a couple days.

Currently registered as a ul trainer.

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_________________
MKIIIX040
912UL

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Getting through ELSA

Vic:



Luck .... not really.  The FAA guy I happened to know from his days as the Dir of Maintenance where I keep my traveling plane.  So it did help knowing him.  But he still followed the book.



I must not have read the instructions all the way.  I put Kolb as the manufacturer and never gave it a thought.  I did not build it all, it came via a kit plus it was a in-process project that acquired and brought it to completion.  I am happy to have Kolb on the registration. 



I was looking at the EAB but the DAR told me that he probably would not give me repair authority so the E-LSA looked like the best fit.  Or I could have created the documentation to satisfy the DAR.



When I found this plane, I had intended to have it a UL.  But it was fat and no way would it ever make the weight.  The LSA was a great opportunity for this plane.



Again, thanks to the K Listers for the help.



Jim



do not archive

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Jim O'Day
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