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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: Did It Again.

Kolbers,



Yesterday, I flew up to Marion, Indiana to a fly-in.  When I got there I 

found they had closed the cross wind runway and I could not merge into the 

GA traffic pattern.  To get down, I cross the main runway at mid field and 

made a right hand pattern for the parallel taxiway.  On the first pass a 

Varieze took the first ramp and I had to abort.  On the second attempt I had 

the taxiway made, and the engine quit.



At this point I made a poor decision to restart and diverted my attention 

from landing.  Thinking back, I wonder why I did this because I have 

finished many flights with a quiet engine.  I just dropped the nose a little 

and made a nice approach and restarted the engine on the runway and taxi on 

in.  I glanced at the airspeed indicator and it said 40 mphi and I knew I 

was in trouble because I was close to gross weight and I would not have 

chance of making a good flare.  I dropped the nose and picked up a little 

more speed and flared.  Impact was soft but I ended up with two bent landing 

gear legs.  Restarted the engine and taxied up to the fly-in proper.  Ended 

up with a prime spot, and talked with loads of people.  Most did not notice 

the bent gear.   I was the only Kolb there.



Cranked up and carefully taxied it out and flew it back to Winchester.  No 

problems at all.



Now I have two legs to straighten because, I didn't continue to fly the 

plane, got too slow, and I didn't make use of the flaperons.  I purchased a 

shop press for the hangar.  I figure I may have to use it again, and having 

it there will remind me to forget the unimportant things and keep flying the 

FireFly.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Wichester, IN

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Did It Again.

Two questions....



1. Why couldn't you use the runnway ???



2. Is it "legal" to land on a taxi way.....



I don't understand why you couldn't enter the pattern ,



 I know you have a radio......?

Gotta Fly...

Mike & "Jaz" in MN

.

.

.

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Did It Again.

I glanced at the airspeed indicator and it said 40 mphi and I knew I was in trouble because I was close to gross weight and I would not have chance of making a good flare. I dropped the nose and picked up a little more speed and flared. Impact was soft but I ended up with two bent landing gear legs. 



Jack, I have the same question. How come you couldn't land on the runway? Were you short on fuel?  Did anyone say anything about landing on a taxiway? I would think this would not be good, especially at a fly-in. Coming in at 40 is ok. That's best glide speed for your Firefly. How did you happen to bend the gear?



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: Did It Again.

At 04:34 PM 9/2/07 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Two questions....



1. Why couldn't you use the runnway ???



2. Is it "legal" to land on a taxi way.....




	


Mike,



When I crossed mid field I could see planes on the downwind to my right as 

far as I could see and when I looked to the left they proceeded on out of 

sight to turn base.  I could not keep up with the radio chatter as to who 

was ahead or behind. I flew in tight and came about and tried to pace them 

to see if I could merge, but full throttle was not enough.  So, I climbed 

and passed back over mid field and landed on the end of the parallel taxi 

way.  Not many GA planes will land on the approach and turn off on the end 

ramp.



Since the FireFly is an ultralight vehicle, I do not worry much about 

landing on taxiways.  It seems prudent to use them this way knowing that no 

GA pilot would consider doing the same.  I have not had a complaint.  I am 

nervous in this situation due to an experience at Perryville Municipal 

Airport in Missouri.  I was flying the runway to land just before the first 

turn off.  No chatter on the radio.  I looked down and a jet passed by below 

on the runway.  He turned off at the same ramp, but to the other side.  I 

slipped over to a short parallel taxiway and landed.  I assume he didn't see 

me, and so I try to avoid mixing it up with aircraft that fly much faster 

than the FireFly.  Let them have the runway.  



Next year, I will call and see if they will let me use the closed cross runway.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Did It Again.

Since the FireFly is an ultralight vehicle, I do not worry much about landing on taxiways.



Jack, ultralight vehicles are not exempt from the FARs, especially at airports and at a fly-in. This is what gives ultralighters a bad name because they think they are except from the rules.



In your situation, I would have have made sure I had plenty of reserve fuel and circled at a safe distance from the airport. When there was a lull in traffic, go in, make your pattern, and land.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Did It Again.

"Fly the plane"  That is what they drill into you training, it makes no difference what plane it is.  But it is so easy to get distracted.



"did it again" .........  Bent gear seems to be an epidemic with these birds.  But it seems to be only a inconvenience compared to bent legs (the walking type) or a bent neck (the head support type).  



Glad you made it on the deck OK  and could even enjoy the fellowship of the fly-in.



Thanks for the PIREP Jack.



do not archive

_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: Did It Again.

"I could not keep up with the radio chatter as to who

was ahead or behind."



This is your main problem. Forget abuot your bent landing gear.

Get a better headset, get a better radio, change the position of your 

antenna or don't go to airports where you cant deal with the "chatter". 

Mainly because we are exchanging important information that everyone needs 

to understand so the concert of planes lands saftly on the runway in a 

predictable fasion.

You land on a taxiway in Dallas Tx and you're going to have a lot of 

explaining to do and you probably wont have your license after a stunt like 

that.

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: Did It Again.

I landed my Hummer ultralight on a taxi way one day and got a severe

chewing out by the controllers.  No fine, but a memorable situation.

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: Did It Again.

Radios are dandy but keep in mind that, as yet, uncontrolled airports  

do not require one.

Around here there is only one tower and no one I know wants to go there.

At a fly in breakfast you will find lots of J3s, Aeroncas etc, that  

have no radio and no one expects

them to have one.  If you follow the honorable traditions of keeping  

your eyes looking

out the window and not on some silly gages and follow proper pattern  

procedure

there will not be any problems.  The only near misses (what a  

contradictory expression!)

I've ever experienced were at controlled airports. -one from  

following a controller's advice.



Also regarding the licensing of a slightly used homebuilt:  I'm quite  

sure that if you picked

up an old rat, stripped the rags off it, fixed all the questionable  

mechanics, primed

the tubes and took a couple pix before recovering it, you would have  

no problem

getting your EAB.

BB

do not archive

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:47 am Post subject: Did It Again.

At 10:32 PM 9/2/07 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



You land on a taxiway in Dallas Tx and you're going to have a lot of 

explaining to do and you probably wont have your license after a stunt like 

that.




	


David,



When I fly into a controlled air space airport, I have to get permission.  I 

have found that they usually want some ultralight vehicles on display.  If I 

am told to stay away, I do.  I call a day before the fly-in.  Then I call 

again just before departing for the fly-in.  We discuss how I am to approach 

the airport, and how they will pick me up. Often they have me circle a 

landmark on the edge of the airport at a given altitude. One time the 

controller called me every fifteen minutes and described land features on 

the flight path and I could click the mic button to indicated yes or no, so 

he could determine my progress.  They have been very courteous and I follow 

the controller's instructions for landing and taxiing. I explain that if 

there is much surface wind, I need to pay attention to the FireFly and 

not be fiddling with the radio.  When I leave I cell phone call or buddy with 

someone else that is leaving who has a radio.  



Using the radio to break into to a seemingly continuous landing queue would 

be illegal.  As an ultralight vehicle, the only thing with more priority is 

an ultralight vehicle glider.  And, since I have an ultralight vehicle, I do 

not have a license to take away.  The FAA has determined that the FireFly is 

not an aircraft, so I believe it is the best policy to be as unobtrusive as 

possible.  I have never had a complaint about landing on a taxiway.  If you 

use the taxiway and approach in a tight pattern rotation on the same side as 

the taxiway from the main runway, it is impossible to be responsible for a 

runway incursion.  If there is a cross wind, you do have to be careful of 

wing tip and propeller wash from the main runway.  But if you land on the 

very end of the parallel taxiway, this is minimized.



The nice thing about a Kolb is that it is very easy to pick up other traffic 

in front and to the sides, up and down.  But I do get nervous about my back 

when close to an airport.  When flying into a non-tower airport, I use my 

radio to announce my intentions, but as most of you know that is no 

guarantee that everyone else is using or listening to a radio.  There are 

lots of GA aircraft flying without radios and a few others that do not 

bother to use them in uncontrolled airspace.  I remember how confined the 

view was from the cockpit of Cessna or Cherokee.  It would be very easy to 

come up from behind on a landing approach and to be unable to see a FireFly. 

 At altitude in cruise the forward view is much better.  On the way at 1,500 

feet agl to and from the fly-in, GA aircraft caught up and passed by me.  

One pilot waggled the wings as if to say "hello" or maybe it was "that crazy 

idiot".  I like to think the former.  I felt sorry for them in that they had 

to fly inside on such a beautiful day and miss so much of the view.



I am rambling.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:57 am Post subject: Did It Again.

In re using radios -- of course they're not necessary, and the vast majority of US airports don't have or require them . But if you have one in your aircraft by all means keep it on and tuned to UNICOM or the common  advisory freq. This will keep things SAFER. You might miss hearing something like "Gulfstream making a straight-in for runway XX with both engines out" -- and you would like to know that. Doesn't take any effort to LISTEN to what everyone else is doing. Used to have permission to land on the grass area of our paved, tower-controlled airport, as I could simply land, turn  90* and taxi to my tiedown, without adding to the traffic flow at all.. All it took was asking  tower and the airport mgr. He's a self-important type, but when it turned out I had more taildragger time than he had total time, he gave his permission!  

Point is, if you ask, most any reasonable request is usually granted. Better than doing non-standard and unexpected maneuvers. And tower or not, listen  to the other guys flying with you. 

Don't they say, "forewarned is forearmed"?



 [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Did It Again.

 	  planecrazzzy wrote: 	
		  Two questions....



1. Why couldn't you use the runnway ???



2. Is it "legal" to land on a taxi way.....



I don't understand why you couldn't enter the pattern ,



 I know you have a radio......?

Gotta Fly...

Mike & "Jaz" in MN

.

.

. 	




Ust my .02,



I've flown various types of UL's and fat UL's at uncontrolled fields and now fly my firestar II out of a class D airport. What I've found to be good practices:



- a generally accepted pattern procedure for ultralights is a pattern in the same direction as the normal one but fly inside and below it. This way you're visible to the other planes and you can sequence in with them in the normal way by simply adjusting how high and far out from the runway you are.



- use the active runway at all times. Don't use the taxiway at all unless it's just totally deserted and no one is around . The other guys will simply freak out if you land on anything other than the runway they're using...



- wake turbulence is a huge deal in an ultralight. Even a C150's wake can put a UL into the dirt. Extend your downwind a bit if someone's landing. This will piss some guys off a little since you're plugging up the works, but if you dump it on short final due to the wake they'll be a lot madder.



- go ahead and use a radio and learn the normal comm procedures. More than anything this will keep tempers down and fascination with your plane up.



I've never flown an ultralight into a controlled field but I can almost not imagine not using one if I did even with permission. If you're in contact with the controller in the usual way the entry should be a non-event.



LS



-

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: Did It Again.

A couple comments from a retired controller -

If you are flying out of a controlled field and you are concerned about wake 

turbulence - ask for a short approach and a long landing. That way you will 

be above wake turbulence from whoever else is landing. Of course, it the 

traffic in question is a touch and go, disregard this advice.



If you are flying out of an uncontrolled field and you are concerned about 

wake turbulence, make a short approach and a long landing, staying above the 

wake turbulence of the landing aircraft. This reduces your extended 

vulnurability on final, you are less likely to get "cold-nosed." Once again, 

if the traffic in question is touch and go, disregard.



If you are flying a Firestar II into a controlled field, then you are not 

flying an ultralight, you are flying an experimental, and you need to advise 

the controller accordingly. How I would have handled an ultralight and how I 

would have handled an experimental aircraft requesting to come in and land 

are miles apart. U/L vehicles are not aircraft (legally) and cannot be 

treated as such, neither can you treat an U/L vehicle driver as you would a 

pilot. Why? Because a vehicle is not reqauired to have a compass, an 

altimeter, or an airspeed indicator, neither is the driver required to know 

how to use them. So how do you give vectors, assign headings or altitudes, 

or provide seperation services to U/L's? Legally, you can't. Practically, 

maybe, but if it goes wrong, the controller is really out on a limb.



Be glad to expand on this if anyone cares.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: Did It Again.

OP

Not to challenge a retired controller, but how can  any pilot  

"disregard this advice" about wake turbulence following a touch-&-go  

aircraft?

It generates the same wake turbulence  whether it stops on  the  

runway or keeps rolling.

Any pilot of any aircraft should have been briefed on  wake  

turbulence, preferably by seeing the FAA's free film on  same;

educational and mildly terrifying

He should know to land BEYOND the aircraft ahead's touchdown point,  

and lift off BEFORE the point where the other aircraft does

Or he shouldn't be flying from airports at all.



On Sep 3, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Richard Pike wrote:



[quote] 



 A couple comments from a retired controller -

 If you are flying out of a controlled field and you are concerned  

 about wake turbulence - ask for a short approach and a long  

 landing. That way you will be above wake turbulence from whoever  

 else is landing. Of course, it the traffic in question is a touch  

 and go, disregard this advice.



 If you are flying out of an uncontrolled field and you are  

 concerned about wake turbulence, make a short approach and a long  

 landing, staying above the wake turbulence of the landing aircraft.  

 This reduces your extended vulnurability on final, you are less  

 likely to get "cold-nosed." Once again, if the traffic in question  

 is touch and go, disregard.



 If you are flying a Firestar II into a controlled field, then you  

 are not flying an ultralight, you are flying an experimental, and  

 you need to advise the controller accordingly. How I would have  

 handled an ultralight and how I would have handled an experimental  

 aircraft requesting to come in and land are miles apart. U/L  

 vehicles are not aircraft (legally) and cannot be treated as such,  

 neither can you treat an U/L vehicle driver as you would a pilot.  

 Why? Because a vehicle is not reqauired to have a compass, an  

 altimeter, or an airspeed indicator, neither is the driver required  

 to know how to use them. So how do you give vectors, assign  

 headings or altitudes, or provide seperation services to U/L's?  

 Legally, you can't. Practically, maybe, but if it goes wrong, the  

 controller is really out on a limb.



 Be glad to expand on this if anyone cares.



 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



 ---

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: Did It Again.

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>When I fly into a controlled air space airport, I have to get 

>>>>>permission.  I

have found that they usually want some ultralight vehicles on display.  If I
	


am told to stay away, I do.  I call a day before the fly-in.  Then I call

again just before departing for the fly-in.  We discuss how I am to approach

the airport, and how they will pick me up. Often they have me circle a

landmark on the edge of the airport at a given altitude. One time the

controller called me every fifteen minutes and described land features on

the flight path and I could click the mic button to indicated yes or no, so

he could determine my progress.  They have been very courteous and I follow

the controller's instructions for landing and taxiing. I explain that if

there is much surface wind, I need to pay attention to the FireFly and

not be fiddling with the radio.  When I leave I cell phone call or buddy 

with

someone else that is leaving who has a radio.



Using the radio to break into to a seemingly continuous landing queue would

be illegal. <<<<<



Ok I understand more now. You had permission and my plane can go faster. At 

a crowded airport I get in line fly at 80 mph and keep it that way till 

short final and let the faster planes bedhind me deal with it, while I do 

what I was ask to do, what is llegal, predictable and expected. I'm not sure 

your last sentence is right, I haven't seen anything that says using the 

radio to break into a continuous landing quee is illegal and between landing 

on taxiway or breaking in line I'd break in line. Rather have a problem with 

another pilot than the FAA.

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Did It Again.

 	  Richard Pike wrote: 	
		  A couple comments from a retired controller -

If you are flying out of a controlled field and you are concerned about wake 

turbulence - ask for a short approach and a long landing. That way you will 

be above wake turbulence from whoever else is landing. Of course, it the 

traffic in question is a touch and go, disregard this advice.



If you are flying out of an uncontrolled field and you are concerned about 

wake turbulence, make a short approach and a long landing, staying above the 

wake turbulence of the landing aircraft. This reduces your extended 

vulnurability on final, you are less likely to get "cold-nosed." Once again, 

if the traffic in question is touch and go, disregard.

	




This is what I'd do at our airport except it's virtually always the case that the landing traffic is touch-and-go. So unless the controller needs me to do a short approach or I'll otherwise keep him too busy, I typically request extending my downwind and/fly the pattern really slow (did the pattern at 60mph in the titan last night after a beech jet landed in front of me).

But if the controller needs me to do X, I damn sure comply and do X unless I'm unable or in my judgement as PIC it'll be a hazard....



I.e. day before yesterday we were cleared for takeoff, but there was a Mig holding short of the active in front of us waiting to takeoff too...... so I kind of had to tell the tower about that one .



 	  Quote: 	
		  

If you are flying a Firestar II into a controlled field, then you are not 

flying an ultralight, you are flying an experimental, and you need to advise 

the controller accordingly. How I would have handled an ultralight and how I 

would have handled an experimental aircraft requesting to come in and land 

are miles apart. U/L vehicles are not aircraft (legally) and cannot be 

treated as such, neither can you treat an U/L vehicle driver as you would a 

pilot. Why? Because a vehicle is not reqauired to have a compass, an 

altimeter, or an airspeed indicator, neither is the driver required to know 

how to use them. So how do you give vectors, assign headings or altitudes, 

or provide seperation services to U/L's? Legally, you can't. Practically, 

maybe, but if it goes wrong, the controller is really out on a limb.



Be glad to expand on this if anyone cares.

	




That's a good point that I didn't think about.... BTW, my FSII is registered experimental A/B so he's properly equipped and legal at our airport. But I sort of take a compass, ASI, alt and comm for granted, didn't think about what a controller would have to deal with if one of more of those wasn't available in an incoming plane......



Interesting....



I should also mention the controllers are pretty enthralled by my Firestar, they mostly look at spam cans and jets all day so I'm pretty different....



[/quote]

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Did It Again.

 	  russ(at)rkiphoto.com wrote: 	
		  OP

Not to challenge a retired controller, but how can  any pilot  

"disregard this advice" about wake turbulence following a touch-&-go  

aircraft?

It generates the same wake turbulence  whether it stops on  the  

runway or keeps rolling.

Any pilot of any aircraft should have been briefed on  wake  

turbulence, preferably by seeing the FAA's free film on  same;

educational and mildly terrifying

He should know to land BEYOND the aircraft ahead's touchdown point,  

and lift off BEFORE the point where the other aircraft does

Or he shouldn't be flying from airports at all.

	




Actually, no it doesnt, in my experience. Another wake is created further upwind as the plane takes off again in a TnG situation. In a full stop, you just have the wake created on landing. So above and beyond the path of the landing a/c will keep you out of the wake in that case, but you can still hit the wake created on departure in the TnG situation.



Don't ask me how I know this.....



But in case of a full stop on landing traffic in front of me in calm conditions, I'll ask the tower for a long landing, even in the titan....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: Did It Again.

Because if the aircraft you are following is doing a touch and go, then you 

have to be able to stay above his flight path of his final, touch down just 

beyond where he touched down, and not so far along that you get into his 

fresh wake generated by his liftoff. And I prefer not to tell anybody how to 

do that, because if they mess up, it would not be a smiley-face day.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: Did It Again.

At 11:42 AM 9/3/07 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Using the radio to break into to a seemingly continuous landing queue would

be illegal. <<<<<


	


David,



I was at an non control tower field (MZZ).  As I am flying an ultralight 

vehicle, I am supposed to give way to all other flying aircraft.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: Did It Again.

Impact was soft but I ended up with two bent landing

 	  Quote: 	
		   gear legs.



 Jack B. Hart FF004


	




Jack B:



Sorry to hear about your incident.



Those soft impacts will bend Kolb gear legs every time.



Didn't say why your engine would not idle.  Got the impression from your 

post that engine stoppage at idle happened frequently.  Got a fix for it?



john h

MKIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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