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E-AB and the FAA

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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: E-AB and the FAA

All, I called my local FSDO this morning and talked to them about the issue that's been the hot topic here for the last few days. 

"Can a buyer of a previously uncertificated, complete aircraft get it certificated as Experimental Amateur Built (E-AB)?" 

And the answer is.....NO. Big surprise.

To be absolutely sure, I also called the FAA Light Sport Branch in Oklahoma City. (405)954-6400. I asked the same question, 

"Can a buyer of a previously uncertificated, complete aircraft get it certificated as E-AB?" 

And the answer is.....NO. Big surprise, again.

And what was the source they quoted? FAR 21.191g and AC 20-27f.

So, for those who can't see why not. Here's why not. 

THE FAA WON'T DO IT.

Now this thread is truly closed. 



Rick

-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: Re: E-AB and the FAA

The FAA says "no", but we all know that it's been done. My DAR told me to have a builders log and photos to show him prior to the inspection. Well, he never asked to look at them when it was inspected. I had to bring it up and show him.



There is a local guy who registered his Sky Ranger as E-AB and he bought the plane built. The DAR gave him an airworthiness cert with no questions asked.



When I submitted my paperwork for my repairmans cert at the local FSDO, they FAA never asked for my builders log or photos even though they asked me to bring them along.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: Re: E-AB and the FAA

Just pull the wings, wheels, tail other parts and reassemble with some pics. When it is assembled at a certain point it can qualify. Just say you rebuilt it. Worked for me.

Kind of a pain, but it works and meets the rule for building.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: E-AB and the FAA

John, et al, To those of you who wrote to say you did it or know someone who did it and got away clean, all I can say is, sure. We all know it happens, there is always someone who gets away with something, ask O.J.

My problem is encouraging someone to do that without suffering the consequences should that person be the one who hits the stickler guy or the thorough detail guy. 

If we, as the responsible group we are, begin encouraging someone with advice that is patently false, and that person suffers harm, are we the responsible upright group we claim to be?

I know there are people who are part of this group who do loops in their Kolbs, but when a fellow said he wanted to be able to that, he was told get the Titan.  

I know I caught it from some of you when I described my ham handed attempt to check my ailerons for flutter after I put on the counter weights and slipped well past the Mk III's VNE. I would never encourage anyone to do that, and believe me, I'll never do it again, the pucker factor was just too high. I'd feel darn stupid explaining why I had to deploy the BRS to the other guys here on the strip. I'd feel darn dead if the BRS hadn't solved the result of my own ineptitude. 

Look at the response to Jack Hart's arrival. A few people took exception to how he handled it, but most responded with a, "this is how I handled this situation when it happened to me", story. I've been in Jack's situation, but I learned something from the replies, and different ways of looking at it. I especially appreciated Mike's response, coming from a former controller. 

As for the IMPORTANT MESSAGE, I just couldn't resist. If I offended someone with it, you'll have to take my word for it that I didn't mean to. It made me laugh when I thought of it and I was hoping it would someone else, too. 



Rick



On 9/4/07, Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] All, I called my local FSDO this morning and talked to them about the issue that's been the hot topic here for the last few days. 

"Can a buyer of a previously uncertificated, complete aircraft get it certificated as Experimental Amateur Built (E-AB)?" 

And the answer is.....NO. Big surprise.

To be absolutely sure, I also called the FAA Light Sport Branch in Oklahoma City. (405)954-6400. I asked the same question, 

"Can a buyer of a previously uncertificated, complete aircraft get it certificated as E-AB?" 

And the answer is.....NO. Big surprise, again.

And what was the source they quoted? FAR 21.191g and AC 20-27f.

So, for those who can't see why not. Here's why not. 

THE FAA WON'T DO IT.

Now this thread is truly closed. 



Rick

-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List http://forums.matronics.com when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: E-AB and the FAA

 	  jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  All, I called my local FSDO this morning and talked to them about the issue that's been the hot topic here for the last few days. 

"Can a buyer of a previously uncertificated, complete aircraft get it certificated as Experimental Amateur Built (E-AB)?" 

And the answer is.....NO. Big surprise.

To be absolutely sure, I also called the FAA Light Sport Branch in Oklahoma City. (405)954-6400. I asked the same question, 

"Can a buyer of a previously uncertificated, complete aircraft get it certificated as E-AB?" 

And the answer is.....NO. Big surprise, again.

And what was the source they quoted? FAR 21.191g and AC 20-27f.

So, for those who can't see why not. Here's why not. 

THE FAA WON'T DO IT.

Now this thread is truly closed. 

	




You seem to have left out the most important part of the question



"... provided documentation exists that the plane was 51% built by an amateur solely for his/her education or recreation"



Did you happen to specify this?

 

Of course they're going to (correctly) answer no to the question you posed.... But that's not the question pertinent to this thread......

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: E-AB and the FAA

The new Sport Aviation mag covers a little bit on this issue.

September 2007 page 10.



"His concern is that people aren't building their own airplanes but 

certificicating them as though they had."



"The FAA officials are concerned about what it calls abuses of the 51% 

rule."



"I can not acccept a policy that would support amateur-built aircraft 

certification for airplanes that are not built by their owners"



I think this covers your case. They call it abuse.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: E-AB and the FAA

Date: Tue,  4 Sep 2007 16:36:54 -0700




jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote:

 > All, I called my local FSDO this morning and talked to them about the 

issue that's been the hot topic here for the last few days.

 > "Can a buyer of a previously uncertificated, complete aircraft get it 

certificated as Experimental Amateur Built (E-AB)?"

 > And the answer is.....NO. Big surprise.

 > To be absolutely sure, I also called the FAA Light Sport Branch in 

Oklahoma City. (405)954-6400. I asked the same question,

 > "Can a buyer of a previously uncertificated, complete aircraft get it 

certificated as E-AB?"

 > And the answer is.....NO. Big surprise, again.

 > And what was the source they quoted? FAR 21.191g and AC 20-27f.

 > So, for those who can't see why not. Here's why not.

 > THE FAA WON'T DO IT.

 > Now this thread is truly closed.

 >

You seem to have left out the most important part of the question



"... provided documentation exists that the plane was 51% built by an 

amateur solely for his/her education or recreation"



Did you happen to specify this?



Of course they're going to (correctly) answer no to the question you 

posed.... But that's not the question pertinent to this thread......



--------

LS

FS II





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132783#132783

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: E-AB and the FAA

You mentioned VNE.  What is the Vne on a Kolb Mark III Classic?.  I

accidently hit 100 mph before I understood my new winglets effect in a

power on slight dive.  Lots of elevator back pressure required.  I cut

the lower cuffs off of the winglets and the problem went away.   But

still....how fast can you go before things start falling off, such as

the airlerons.

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: E-AB and the FAA

 	  dhkey(at)msn.com wrote: 	
		  The new Sport Aviation mag covers a little bit on this issue.

September 2007 page 10.



"His concern is that people aren't building their own airplanes but 

certificicating them as though they had."



"The FAA officials are concerned about what it calls abuses of the 51% 

rule."



"I can not acccept a policy that would support amateur-built aircraft 

certification for airplanes that are not built by their owners"



I think this covers your case. They call it abuse.

	




No, it doesn't. Getting an EAB AW cert. for an airplane that was 51% built by an amateur for his/her recreation/education is compliance with, and not abuse of, the rule. That's the point here....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:39 am Post subject: E-AB and the FAA

 	  Quote: 	
		  

dhkey(at)msn.com wrote:

> The new Sport Aviation mag covers a little bit on this issue.

> September 2007 page 10.

> 

> "His concern is that people aren't building their own airplanes but 

> certificicating them as though they had."

> 

> "The FAA officials are concerned about what it calls abuses of the 51% 

> rule."

> 

> "I can not acccept a policy that would support amateur-built aircraft 

> certification for airplanes that are not built by their owners"

> 

> I think this covers your case. They call it abuse.

> 


	


One important point taken from the above article is that "The FAA's 

particular concerns lie with quick build kits, for which the manufacturer 

virtually always fabricates major components."



You can buy an unfinished project from a builder and successfully comply 

with the 51% rule.  



Examples can be seen on page 82 - "Relief Builder"



On page 76 "Members Forum"



On page 129, three building projects are for sale.



The fact that these articles were written and that these projects are 

advertised indicates that the owner does not have to build 51%.  It implies 

that the FAA is applying a 51% amateur built rule.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:19 am Post subject: E-AB and the FAA

The September 2007 issue of Sport Aviation magazine page 10 clearly suggests 

that you registering an plane EAB that was built by someone else [insert 

your favorite words here] is considered an abuse. (please read the article)



The atricle says "REGISTERING AN AIRPLANE E-AB THAT WAS BUILT BY SOMEONE 

ELSE IS AN ABUSE." It's because YOU are not the builder". The fact that it 

was built by someone else is why the spirit of the rule is not in favor of 

you registering it.



The phrase "SOMEONE ELSE" is your problem not why it was built.



You have several choices.

You can pretend it doesn't say that.

You can pretend the plane wasn't built by someone else.

You can pretend the FAA guy that was called was wrong.

You can contine to say that the question wasn't ask using the right words.

You can say hey they didn't say my particular name in the rule so maybe I 

can.

You can say they didn't say I couldn't register a Kolb built by someone else 

EAB.



I am not the one who can tell you you can or can't. So really it makes no 

diffrence what I say. Call or write the FAA yourself.

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:18 am Post subject: E-AB and the FAA

At 07:19 AM 9/5/07 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I am not the one who can tell you you can or can't. So really it makes no 

diffrence what I say. Call or write the FAA yourself.




	


David,



I agree with you. BUT until those who monitor the system follow and enforce 

the reg's nothing is going to change.  If I worked for the FAA and valued my 

job, and I recieved such a call about the rules, I would give book answer 

too. It is kind of like "Bait and Switch".  I will tell you the rules, but 

most know how it is really done. If and when the rules are applied as 

written, the Sport Aviation mag will have no uncompleted projects for sale, 

and the articles will not involve transfer of project ownership.  What you 

will see is that projects will involve mulitiple owner/builders so that if 

one drops out the project can be successfuly completed without with out 

financial loss.



Enough



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:38 am Post subject: Re: E-AB and the FAA

 	  dhkey(at)msn.com wrote: 	
		  The September 2007 issue of Sport Aviation magazine page 10 clearly suggests 

that you registering an plane EAB that was built by someone else [insert 

your favorite words here] is considered an abuse. (please read the article)



The atricle says "REGISTERING AN AIRPLANE E-AB THAT WAS BUILT BY SOMEONE 

ELSE IS AN ABUSE." It's because YOU are not the builder". The fact that it 

was built by someone else is why the spirit of the rule is not in favor of 

you registering it.

	




Not interested in what a magazine says. I'm interested in what the _FARs_ say.



I want this assertion of yours backed up by a _regulation_ - then I'll be convinced it's illegal or improper. 



Please cite a _regulation_ that specifically disallows EAB cert. of an airplane 51% built by an amateur for recreation/education.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: E-AB and the FAA

Why haven't you called you local FAA office?

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: E-AB and the FAA

Date: Wed,  5 Sep 2007 06:38:36 -0700




dhkey(at)msn.com wrote:

 > The September 2007 issue of Sport Aviation magazine page 10 clearly 

suggests

 > that you registering an plane EAB that was built by someone else [insert

 > your favorite words here] is considered an abuse. (please read the 

article)

 >

 > The atricle says "REGISTERING AN AIRPLANE E-AB THAT WAS BUILT BY SOMEONE

 > ELSE IS AN ABUSE." It's because YOU are not the builder". The fact that 

it

 > was built by someone else is why the spirit of the rule is not in favor 

of

 > you registering it.

 >

Not interested in what a magazine says. I'm interested in what the _FARs_ 

say.



I want this assertion of yours backed up by a _regulation_ - then I'll be 

convinced it's illegal or improper.



Please cite a _regulation_ that specifically disallows EAB cert. of an 

airplane 51% built by an amateur for recreation/education.



LS



--------

LS

FS II





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132875#132875

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: E-AB and the FAA

 	  dhkey(at)msn.com wrote: 	
		  Why haven't you called you local FAA office?

	




Because the burden of proof isn't on me - I didn't make the claim that there was some circumstance under which an a/c built by an amateur couldn't get an EAB AW cert, Richard did.



So, I'm simply asking for support for that claim.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

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