Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - compensation issue, my second last try.

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

compensation issue, my second last try.

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

rvfltd(at)televar.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

I am very aware of what the rules say, and  of how the FAA currently interprets them.  My point was only that this  poorly written reg  will surly effect us all at some point and I don't  think it is in our best interest (as a group) to just roll over without giving  it our best shot.  Which I might add will cost you nothing.  So, if  you will give me that small point without further list noise, I would like to  see us proceed.  I know from our past history as a group we seem to  be nearly incapable of coming to a consensus, so I expect this will be a  uphill fight even within our own ranks.  But I am sure that writing a well  worded letter and sending it to the other various other like minded groups which  we believe would have an interest, just might give us the numbers we need  to effect a change in the verbiage of the reg regarding compensation for  static display.  The change might be as simple as moving the medical  requirements from a second to a third class, or to a pvt and a 3rd  class.  This is ONLY to accept compensation for the static display of  his/her experimental category aircraft.  This would not effect performers  that fly for hire, again this is JUST to allow compensation for the the static  display of the aircraft. 

  

  

 And please, those of you naysayers and self  appointed pundants who plunder the list on a daily basis, most of you have  already weighed in saying that I am pissing in the wind, so OK please leave it  at that, and now lets try to do something as a group to help our community at  large instead of fragmenting the group with further negative comments.  In  short, if you don't have something constructive to say about this  issue just shut the hell up!  If we could find even half as much time  to devote to this issue as was spent on the list babbling about non productive  issues we would be well on the way to getting our thoughts into a form that we  could present to the other organizations, and from there to the AOPA and the EAA  and hopefully if we could demonstrate the numbers, they would carry the issue to  the FAA.  

  

 I have no problem devoting the time and  trouble to chair this project, but I will not do it without the help and co  operation of the community at large.  Those of you that feel that this is a  worth while project and wish to contribute their thoughts but don't like to use  the list because of the rancorous comments, feel free to contact me off list or  call me at the number below.  If I don't get ample reaction to this  posting I will drop the idea.  

  

 Doug Sapp

 phone 509-826-4610

 rvfltd(at)televar.com (rvfltd(at)televar.com)

  

 

  [quote]   --

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

Doug,



I only bother reading posts by a select few people now, otherwise I

just hit the delete button based on topic or author. I have given up

on this list, hence my absence. I nominate you to draft this letter

which I will sign, since your literary prowness is beyond my

capabilities.



Ernie

Frank

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 69

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

Doug

  

 I'm on your side. What do you need to  proceed? Money?.... You got it! ......Moral support? .....You got it!  

  

 To the other lurkers......... get off your  dead asses and speak out to regain your freedoms! Help Doug in his efforts  to promote aviation! Let those who are engaged in profit answer to the  rules of the FAA.....in keeping with the spirit of their rules. But those of us  who do it for fun shouldn't be hobbled with rules not designed for us.  (personally. I despise government regulation.....but I have to live with it or  I'll find a gun to my head by some well meaning but short  sighted peace officer).

  

 For cryin' out loud......let our expenses be  covered so it will promote aviation! We aren't making a profit off of this  stuff! If you want to make a profit then, hell, get your commercial.....I don't  give a rats ass.

  

 Look.......If I'm not making a profit, why  shouldn't airshow organizers help pay for the costs of our being there? This  isn't a business! It's only to help defray individual costs and help make  aviation more available to everyone. 

  

 Jezzus H Krist......don't get me  started........

  

 Frank

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:16 pm Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

On Feb 18, 2006, at 5:00 PM, doug sapp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   And please, those of you naysayers and self appointed pundants who  

 plunder the list on a daily basis,


	


I am glad to hear you like my posts Doug.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have no problem devoting the time and trouble to chair this  

 project, but I will not do it without the help and co operation of  

 the community at large.


	


Why do you need the support of the community at large? If you want to  

change it, you should try to change it.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Those of you that feel that this is a worth while project and wish  

 to contribute their thoughts but don't like to use the list because  

 of the rancorous comments, feel free to contact me off list or call  

 me at the number below.  If I don't get ample reaction to this  

 posting I will drop the idea.


	


I will help if I can.



Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

jon(at)email.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

Unfortunately, the way to change this is to get the issue in front of a

federal judge who's of a mind to take a natural law approach to this... a

strict constitutionalist and someone who's not so fond of so much

government.  What does it take to find a judge who's willing to say to the

FAA, "Aren't you supposed to be ENCOURAGING flying?"  Which means that

we'll need both luck and money on our side.



Jon



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 On Feb 18, 2006, at 5:00 PM, doug sapp wrote:



> And please, those of you naysayers and self appointed pundants who

> plunder the list on a daily basis,



 I am glad to hear you like my posts Doug.



> I have no problem devoting the time and trouble to chair this

> project, but I will not do it without the help and co operation of

> the community at large.



 Why do you need the support of the community at large? If you want to

 change it, you should try to change it.



> Those of you that feel that this is a worth while project and wish

> to contribute their thoughts but don't like to use the list because

> of the rancorous comments, feel free to contact me off list or call

> me at the number below.  If I don't get ample reaction to this

> posting I will drop the idea.



 I will help if I can.



 Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

 brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



 I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

 — Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

dhanshew(at)cinci.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

Count me in. I couldn’t agree more. I fly in the shows. Sometimes I sit static. This has always been a bone of contention within the warbird community at large. I understand they are protecting their turf, but in many ways it runs up the overall costs of organizations trying to host shows. Most airshows I’ve been acquainted with over the past two to three years finish 10-15,000 dollars in the red, simply because of the price of the heavy iron associated with pro-shows like “Planes of Fame”. Don’t get me wrong, it costs a lot of money to get a Hellcat, Corsair, Wildcat, Avenger, and Skyraider on site, but they still charge something like 50K for the whole shebang. You have to sell a lot of tickets to cover that cost plus fuel, cars and hotel. Most small shows can’t handle it. I’ve found that they like the Yak guys cause were cheap and get them a lot of bang for their buck. The overall Gas bill is light and the folks come to see planes flying and we can do that for dollars on the hour. Sadly, most don’t know a Yak-52 from a P-47. They come to see planes and hear noise. Conversely, we are the red-headed scum of WOA for that same reason. I can live with it. Sitting static should not require anything more than a straight-up pilots license and you should be comped’ gas and oil. If you want to fly in the show and get paid have a commercial, FAST (for formation), fire-retardant wonder bra, lifetime prescription to viagra, and a picture of Hillary glued face up in your seat pan as something that might provoke you to bail out in an emergency.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of doug sapp

 Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 8:00 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: compensation issue, my second last try.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

I am very aware of what the rules say, and of how the FAA currently interprets them.  My point was only that this poorly written reg  will surly effect us all at some point and I don't think it is in our best interest (as a group) to just roll over without giving it our best shot.  Which I might add will cost you nothing.  So, if you will give me that small point without further list noise, I would like to see us proceed.  I know from our past history as a group we seem to be nearly incapable of coming to a consensus, so I expect this will be a uphill fight even within our own ranks.  But I am sure that writing a well worded letter and sending it to the other various other like minded groups which we believe would have an interest, just might give us the numbers we need to effect a change in the verbiage of the reg regarding compensation for static display.  The change might be as simple as moving the medical requirements from a second to a third class, or to a pvt and a 3rd class.  This is ONLY to accept compensation for the static display of his/her experimental category aircraft.  This would not effect performers that fly for hire, again this is JUST to allow compensation for the the static display of the aircraft.   

   

   

And please, those of you naysayers and self appointed pundants who plunder the list on a daily basis, most of you have already weighed in saying that I am pissing in the wind, so OK please leave it at that, and now lets try to do something as a group to help our community at large instead of fragmenting the group with further negative comments.  In short, if you don't have something constructive to say about this issue just shut the hell up!  If we could find even half as much time to devote to this issue as was spent on the list babbling about non productive issues we would be well on the way to getting our thoughts into a form that we could present to the other organizations, and from there to the AOPA and the EAA and hopefully if we could demonstrate the numbers, they would carry the issue to the FAA.    

   

I have no problem devoting the time and trouble to chair this project, but I will not do it without the help and co operation of the community at large.  Those of you that feel that this is a worth while project and wish to contribute their thoughts but don't like to use the list because of the rancorous comments, feel free to contact me off list or call me at the number below.  If I don't get ample reaction to this posting I will drop the idea.    

   

Doug Sapp  

phone 509-826-4610  

rvfltd(at)televar.com (rvfltd(at)televar.com)  

   

   

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of ByronMFox(at)aol.com

 Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 3:22 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation  

While we all have a First Amendment Right to free speech, widely exercised on this list, the FAA grants us "privileges" to fly. We have no rights of any type where flight is concerned. So, the FAA says to receive so much as a sandwich as compensation for appearing at an airshow, we must hold a commercial ticket and a 2nd class medical. Thems the rules. Sorry, such is the nature of a privilege.  Don't you love semantics? ...Blitz

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

Count me in Doug.  You have my support.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

cd001633(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:05 pm Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

Same holds true for me, Doug!  

   

Sam Sax  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese

 Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 10:08 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Yak-List: compensation issue, my second last try.  

  

     

Count me in Doug.  You have my support.  

    

Dennis  

    

   

  [quote]    

---

cduster(at)inteliport.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

I think I am missing  something here.  Isn't there an exemption for "sharing expenses"?  How  they can think that a sandwich and some gas is compensation is beyond me.   What do the airshow organizers put on your W-1099 form?  Three sandwiches,  two cokes, one room with a queen bed, thirty gallons of gas, use of one lawn  chair with shade, etc.  Heck if the FAA is taking it that far, why isn't  free admittance to an airshow compensation? Uh Oh, I probably shouldn't  have typed that out loud.  Did the FAA get into the airshow for free?   Well along that line of reason, couldn't that be construed as accepting a  bribe?  . Could a properly informed administrator reverse the  interpretation of the regs?

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

If you think that is bad, what do you think of getting  busted for flying a warbird to an airshow without a 2nd class license?   Feds take was if you didn't own the plane and was flying it to the show, you  need a 2nd class... Why? You got air time as compensation.  

 [quote]   ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:44 am Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

If I own the warbird, am paying for the maintance, the fuel/oil and myself to fly to the show, I'll fight it. Also I have not contacted the airshow coordinators to request compensation, room and board or any form of compensation other than for my bird to sit in the static display area,I'll fight it. First by wasting my time with the FSDO and then it sounds like time for a congressional complaint if they do not reverse their decision. Either way, they are wasting mine and everyone else's time.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:56 am Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

Unbelievable!   Don't misinterpret please.   That's carrying it way too far.  But, as long as they have the power and  know it, they will continue to usurp it until someone of an even higher  authority puts a stop to it.

  

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

BUT that has been the past history. 

 [quote]   ---

johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

There was a precedent setting case adjudicated by the FAA legal division in DC about 12 years ago that clarified and set this in motion.    

   

There was a Private pilot operating a Cessna tow plane for his flying club (back in Nebraska, I recall).  He would fly without compensation, (sandwich or gas) for the chance to provide assistance of other members of his glider club seeking a tow to altitude.  The final interpretation was that those hours acquired by such action could not be used as logged “Aeronautical Experience in the seeking of an additional rating… hence Commercial”.  Conclusion – he would have had to expend monies to rent a plane and acquire such additional experience.  His reduction in expenditure = more money in his pocket at the end, by not buying the hours, so he was indirectly compensated and should not have used the logged entries in pursuit of the next rating.  

   

He filed a lawsuit and the outcome generated an IRS tax ruling and an FAA policy change at the time that it was indeed a form of tangible compensation. His attorney failed to prevail. The side note was that he still got the Commercial many years later after paying to get the needed hours.  

   

A properly informed administrator and his/her agents can indeed redirect, reinterpret or change such a legal department conclusion.  Marion Blakely had done a lot for GA but It has not happened since to my knowledge.  It had a big impact on some segments of GA activities.  Somewhere in my files I have the case law.  

   

John Cox – former FAA DPE and now five years removed.  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cgalley

 Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 9:24 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: compensation issue, my second last try.  

  

     

If you think that is bad, what do you think of getting busted for flying a warbird to an airshow without a 2nd class license?  Feds take was if you didn't own the plane and was flying it to the show, you need a 2nd class... Why? You got air time as compensation.    

  [quote]    

---

rvfltd(at)televar.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

John,

 When  you have time could you contact me off list please.

  

 rvfltd(at)televar.com (rvfltd(at)televar.com) 

 

Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp   [quote]   --

L39parts(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: compensation issue, my second last try.

The exemption is for passengers to share  expenses.  IMHO the FAA is on shaky legal ground as far as compensation for  static display.  You don't need any license to own a plane and all of the  FARs on commercial operations refer to carrying passengers or cargo for hire or  a flight for hire (delivering a plane, towing a glider, etc).

  

 Museums charge people to look at their  planes.  Does the person selling the tickets have commercial license?   Does the guy who owns the museum?  It started out to be a policy of not  giving fuel to Private pilots who flew in the show and spiraled out of  control to include sandwiches.

  

 Sadly, my opinion doesn't count.   You need to find a judge that feels this way. 

 [quote]   ---

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum