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Schematic drawing software

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fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: Schematic drawing software

Bob 



Do you have a suggestion for inexpensive software to draw/modify/print

electrical wiring diagrams for our planes?



Thanks



Bevan



--

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: Schematic drawing software

At 07:12 PM 9/9/2007 -0700, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob



Do you have a suggestion for inexpensive software to draw/modify/print

electrical wiring diagrams for our planes?


	


   TurboCAD 7 or higher will open, edit, print and save the drawing

   files posted on my website at:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/



   You can get TurboCAD off ebay for under $20. Your wiring diagrams

   are 90% done on the website. Just grab the pages closest to what

   you want and suck them into your own wirebook.



   Bob . . .

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:33 am Post subject: Schematic drawing software

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

   TurboCAD 7 or higher will open, edit, print and save the drawing

   files posted on my website at:



 http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/



   You can get TurboCAD off ebay for under $20. Your wiring diagrams

   are 90% done on the website. Just grab the pages closest to what

   you want and suck them into your own wirebook.



   Bob . . .


	


Bob,



I'm really appreciative of all the work you've done with the Z drawings, 

and educating us all.  It is all worth the cost even at twice the price, 

but I'd like to make a suggestion for an improvement.



You publish the documents electronically in DWG format.  DWG is a format 

that is proprietary to AutoCAD.  The complete specification is not 

public, and AutoCAD has unilaterally made some changes to the format in 

the past.  There are several implications to this fact. 



One is that you risk loosing months of work if the supporting company 

goes away.  I've had this to happen to me.  ProDesktop was a 3D package 

that was made available for free, and I invested months learning it and 

drawing my Dyke Delta.  Then ProEngineer decided to pull the product.  

They allowed you to keep the unlocking key you had for 5 years, but my 

hard drive crashed and I lost the key.  I didn't want to spend the 

thousands that the professional package cost, so that left me with a lot 

of digital flotsam.  I doubt AutoCAD is going anywhere as a company, but 

they do play the game that Microsoft created of trying to use file 

formats to keep users on an upgrade treadmill.



Another problem is that AutoCAD is only available on the Windows 

operating system.  There's no good reason to use Windows, other than 

having been corralled by closed file formats.  Well, let me qualify 

that.  There's no good reason for *me* to use Windows, other than closed 

file formats. 



Fortunately, there are some very easy solutions that will make everyone 

happy (or at least me).  The most difficult is to switch authoring 

programs.  KiCAD (http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page) 

is an open source package for designing circuit boards.  It has an 

excellent tutorial that will take you through building a simple board.  

After you do a couple, you will be amazed at the way the program makes 

laying out a circuit board so simple.  Better yet, the file format is 

XML.  It's somewhat tedious, but you can edit the circuit using nothing 

but a text editor.  The package is designed more for laying out a 

circuit, vs an entire system, but I suggest anyone interested in 

creating circuit boards give it a try.  The coolest part is laying out 

your circuit board, and then looking at the 3D view of it.



The simplest solution is to just publish the Z drawing in DXF format.  

DWG is closed, and it's benefit is that it provides primitives for 

composing 3D drawings.  DXF is a well documented, open format with 

published specifications.  We're not doing anything in 3D, so DWG offers 

nothing.  There are no open source DWG libraries, but nearly all the 

packages support DXF.  There are converters that go from DWG to DXF, but 

they did nothing but create an unruly mess of the drawings when I 

tried.  I even tried running the CAD programs you include on the CD 

using WINE, but again, all I got were trashed files.  AutoCAD should be 

able to save as DXF, so this fix is nearly painless.



Again, thank you for being an excellent educator, and I hope this 

suggestion is taken in a charitable light.  There are good reasons to 

use closed source programs and proprietary formats.  It just seems 

reasonable to me that those reasons do no apply to our exchange of 

information, and using them is not the best we know how to do is the result.



Thank you.

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:26 am Post subject: Schematic drawing software

At 09:31 AM 9/10/2007 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

<echristley(at)nc.rr.com>

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

>

>   TurboCAD 7 or higher will open, edit, print and save the drawing

>   files posted on my website at:

>

>http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/

>

>   You can get TurboCAD off ebay for under $20. Your wiring diagrams

>   are 90% done on the website. Just grab the pages closest to what

>   you want and suck them into your own wirebook.

>

>   Bob . . .

Bob,

I'm really appreciative of all the work you've done with the Z drawings, 

and educating us all.  It is all worth the cost even at twice the price, 

but I'd like to make a suggestion for an improvement.

You publish the documents electronically in DWG format.  DWG is a format 

that is proprietary to AutoCAD.  The complete specification is not public, 

and AutoCAD has unilaterally made some changes to the format in the 

past.  There are several implications to this fact.

   <snip>

  I have $thousands$ tied up in AutoCAD software and thousands of

  hours of $time$ invested in being proficient with it. All of my

  customers can open, edit, print, and save my drawings under either

  AutoCAD or the format of their choice. Public access issues

  aside, AutoCAD is the logical choice for me to produce drawings

  and illustrations to support my career.

  I didn't plan to publish editable drawings because of the

  difficulty some folks might have acquiring suitable software

  to manage the drawings. At the time I first published the .dwg

  formats, AutoCADLT was available through university bookstores

  for about $125. Taking an engineering student to lunch would

  offer a means by which folks could get into a "real" autocad

  environment. In the mean time, folks told me about more than

  one application that would open, edit, print and save the

  .dwg format . . . not the least of which is TurboCAD v10 which

  I bought off Ebay for $10.

  While .dwg is AutoCAD's offspring, a number of companies

  have seen fit to offer applications that import the format

  at exceedingly reasonable prices.  The DXF format is problematic

  and I've had more problems with transporting data between applications

  with dxf than I've had with a third-party application where

  the software guys took the .dwg format head-on.

  The short answer is that stuff on the aeroelectric.com website is

  a hobby that makes a little money and I cannot justify a great

  shuffling of the applications I use for my business just to

  expand the hobby. That doesn't preclude efforts to maximize

  access to the .dwg work product . . . and for the moment, my

  best suggestion is TurboCAD v7.0 or higher.

  Thank you for your time and consideration of this matter!

  Your assertions are quite accurate but I'll suggest that for

  me, the TurboCAD work-around is a useful solution.

  Bob . . .

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: Schematic drawing software

On 10 Sep 2007, at 11:28, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>



 At 09:31 AM 9/10/2007 -0400, you wrote:



> 

> <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>

>

> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

>>

>>   TurboCAD 7 or higher will open, edit, print and save the drawing

>>   files posted on my website at:

>>

>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/

>>

>>   You can get TurboCAD off ebay for under $20. Your wiring diagrams

>>   are 90% done on the website. Just grab the pages closest to what

>>   you want and suck them into your own wirebook.

>>

>>   Bob . . .

>

> Bob,

>

> I'm really appreciative of all the work you've done with the Z  

> drawings, and educating us all.  It is all worth the cost even at  

> twice the price, but I'd like to make a suggestion for an  

> improvement.

>

> You publish the documents electronically in DWG format.  DWG is a  

> format that is proprietary to AutoCAD.  The complete specification  

> is not public, and AutoCAD has unilaterally made some changes to  

> the format in the past.  There are several implications to this fact.

   <snip>



<snip>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		    The short answer is that stuff on the aeroelectric.com website is

  a hobby that makes a little money and I cannot justify a great

  shuffling of the applications I use for my business just to

  expand the hobby. That doesn't preclude efforts to maximize

  access to the .dwg work product . . . and for the moment, my

  best suggestion is TurboCAD v7.0 or higher.



  Thank you for your time and consideration of this matter!

  Your assertions are quite accurate but I'll suggest that for

  me, the TurboCAD work-around is a useful solution.


	


Bob,



I greatly appreciate all you have done, and continue to do to assist  

builders and owners.  I too would hope for a way to access editable  

copies of your work without having to purchase a computer that can  

run Windows (I use OS X, on an ancient PPC machine).  But, it  

certainly isn't appropriate for us few misfit OS X and Linux users to  

expect you to change your standard document flow just for us.  But, I  

wonder if there is someone out there who has a CAD program that can  

read DWG format who would be willing to convert the drawings to DXF  

format.  If someone did that, and you didn't want to take the trouble  

to host them on your site, I would be quite happy to host them on mine.



Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

do not archive

bob(at)bob-white.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: Schematic drawing software

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:28:11 -0600

"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 09:31 AM 9/10/2007 -0400, you wrote:

 >

 ><echristley(at)nc.rr.com>

 >

 >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 >>

 >>   TurboCAD 7 or higher will open, edit, print and save the drawing

 >>   files posted on my website at:

 >>

 >>http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/

 >>

 >>   You can get TurboCAD off ebay for under $20. Your wiring diagrams

 >>   are 90% done on the website. Just grab the pages closest to what

 >>   you want and suck them into your own wirebook.

 >>

 >>   Bob . . .

 >

 >Bob,

 >

 >I'm really appreciative of all the work you've done with the Z drawings, 

 >and educating us all.  It is all worth the cost even at twice the price, 

 >but I'd like to make a suggestion for an improvement.

 >

 >You publish the documents electronically in DWG format.  DWG is a format 

 >that is proprietary to AutoCAD.  The complete specification is not public, 

 >and AutoCAD has unilaterally made some changes to the format in the 

 >past.  There are several implications to this fact.

    <snip>

   I have $thousands$ tied up in AutoCAD software and thousands of

   hours of $time$ invested in being proficient with it. All of my

   customers can open, edit, print, and save my drawings under either

   AutoCAD or the format of their choice. Public access issues

   aside, AutoCAD is the logical choice for me to produce drawings

   and illustrations to support my career.

   I didn't plan to publish editable drawings because of the

   difficulty some folks might have acquiring suitable software

   to manage the drawings. At the time I first published the .dwg

   formats, AutoCADLT was available through university bookstores

   for about $125. Taking an engineering student to lunch would

   offer a means by which folks could get into a "real" autocad

   environment. In the mean time, folks told me about more than

   one application that would open, edit, print and save the

   .dwg format . . . not the least of which is TurboCAD v10 which

   I bought off Ebay for $10.

   While .dwg is AutoCAD's offspring, a number of companies

   have seen fit to offer applications that import the format

   at exceedingly reasonable prices.  The DXF format is problematic

   and I've had more problems with transporting data between applications

   with dxf than I've had with a third-party application where

   the software guys took the .dwg format head-on.

   The short answer is that stuff on the aeroelectric.com website is

   a hobby that makes a little money and I cannot justify a great

   shuffling of the applications I use for my business just to

   expand the hobby. That doesn't preclude efforts to maximize

   access to the .dwg work product . . . and for the moment, my

   best suggestion is TurboCAD v7.0 or higher.

   Thank you for your time and consideration of this matter!

   Your assertions are quite accurate but I'll suggest that for

   me, the TurboCAD work-around is a useful solution.

   Bob . . .

I use VariCAD on Linux and it opens the AeroElectric .dwg files just

fine.  VariCAD also comes in a Windows version.  It used to be

reasonably priced at around $300, but is now $690 or $830 with one year

of support.  Not so reasonable any more, and I'll probably never upgrade

again.  Although compared to the $4000 for Autocad, maybe not so bad.

For cross application use, save the file in an earlier format rather

than the latest one.  It usually takes a while for the third party

applications to catch up.

Bob W.

-- 

N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com

3.8 Hours Total Time and holding

Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Schematic drawing software

As suggested, I have purchased a copy of TurboCAD Deluxe 10.2 on Ebay and it does a fine job of opening Bob's .dwg files. 



Unfortunately, I have no CAD experience, and don't know how to use TurboCAD. The TurboCAD interface has an Internet link for Tutorials:



http://www.turbocad.com/tutorials



Unfortunately that web page doesn't exist. I have searched the IMSI website for tutorials, but cannot find anything. I note that there is a Tutorial folder in the TurboCAD folder that loaded with the program. But w/o the tutorial narrative, I don't know what to do with these sample drawing files. 



Does anyone know where I can find the tutorial files that (apparently) used to be available from the TurboCAD people? If I could just find them once, I could use the FireFox Scrapbook utility to make my own copy of the tutorial files.



Thank for any help you can give me.



Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the stab

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

harley(at)AgelessWings.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: Schematic drawing software

Morning, Terry...



I'm a happy Vcadd user, but glad to help out if I can, as I started with 

Turbocad myself a few years ago.  I preferred the two letter commands in 

Vcadd, allowing me to keep the mouse moving with my right hand while 

while changing commands with my left, rather than having to open and 

close menus that Turbocad used at the time.



Anyway, a quick search on Google showed that Turbocad charges $49.95 for 

their tutorials now, but I found this on the Cad Digest website:



www.alfredky.com/TCAD/tutorial1.php



Haven't tried it, but it's a start...



Harley Dixon

Long EZ N28EZ

Hangar 29, Airport

Canandaigua, NY

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Terry Phillips wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 As suggested, I have purchased a copy of TurboCAD Deluxe 10.2 on Ebay and it does a fine job of opening Bob's .dwg files. 



 Unfortunately, I have no CAD experience, and don't know how to use TurboCAD. The TurboCAD interface has an Internet link for Tutorials:



 http://www.turbocad.com/tutorials



 Unfortunately that web page doesn't exist. I have searched the IMSI website for tutorials, but cannot find anything. I note that there is a Tutorial folder in the TurboCAD folder that loaded with the program. But w/o the tutorial narrative, I don't know what to do with these sample drawing files. 



 Does anyone know where I can find the tutorial files that (apparently) used to be available from the TurboCAD people? If I could just find them once, I could use the FireFox Scrapbook utility to make my own copy of the tutorial files.



 Thank for any help you can give me.



 Terry Phillips

 ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

 Corvallis MT

 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the stab



 --------

 Terry Phillips

 Corvallis, MT

 ttp44&lt;at&gt;rkymtn.net

 Hope to begin building in '06





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137758#137758

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Schematic drawing software

Thanks, Harley



I had already looked at the tutorial file you posted. Unfortunately, it seems to be about lighting for viewing 3-d objects. What I am hoping for is a tutorial on basic 2-d drawing so I can modify and adapt Bob's schematics.



I'd just as soon avoid paying 5x as much to IMSI for the tutorial as I paid for the software in the 1st place. Plus, I would presume that the tutorial is for the current version, 14, as opposed to version 10 that I purchased. the version might not make any difference, but I don't know how to find out w/o paying $50.



Terry

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

JohnInReno

Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 150

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: Schematic drawing software

I have TurboCAD v8 and there is a 1.5mb tutorial in .pdf format. Contact 

me off list if you want it. It was in a folder on the CD labeled, 

"documentation".



John Morgensen

Terry Phillips wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Thanks, Harley

 

 I had already looked at the tutorial file you posted. Unfortunately, it seems to be about lighting for viewing 3-d objects. What I am hoping for is a tutorial on basic 2-d drawing so I can modify and adapt Bob's schematics.

 

 I'd just as soon avoid paying 5x as much to IMSI for the tutorial as I paid for the software in the 1st place. Plus, I would presume that the tutorial is for the current version, 14, as opposed to version 10 that I purchased. the version might not make any difference, but I don't know how to find out w/o paying $50.

 

 Terry

 

 --------

 Terry Phillips

 Corvallis, MT

 ttp44&lt;at&gt;rkymtn.net

 Hope to begin building in '06

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137997#137997

_________________
John Morgensen
RV-9A - Born on July 3, 2013
RV4 - for sale

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