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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: Ailerons 101

Group,



After recently recovering from a disease related to being an old fart, I finally feel like getting back in the shop, again, to work on my Kolb. A few months ago, I believe it was Richard (Neilson?) that took some photos at Sun 'n Fun of the new yellow Kolb MkIIIX.  (which I have filed)

On this Xtra, it appeared there were aileron bellcranks and pushrods!!! Was this a standard conversion, from the Mk3C to the Mk3X, or was this a new mod TNK came out with recently? When I look at Mike's (Jetpilot) Xtra, I don't see those aileron horns. Anyone know the story or have a drawing (or photo) on this new design??



And, while I'm on the subject of ailerons. I have heard some people have balanced their ailerons. I don't seem to recall anywhere in my MkIIIC assembly manual, or plans refer to balancing the ailerons. Wut's up wit dat? (for those fluent in ebonics)



A few words of enlightenment would be greatly appreciated.          Mike in SW Polygamy Utah

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Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

In a message dated 9/19/2007 3:48:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  On this    Xtra, it appeared there were aileron bellcranks and pushrods!!! Was this a    standard conversion 	


 

 Mike, No , this is not standard, it is a new push/pull cable config being  tested by TNK. Ask travis about it.

 As far as aileron balance, I will let someone more experienced   answer.   

 Steve

Firefly 007/Floats

do not  archive





See w target="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

> And, while I'm on the subject of ailerons. I have heard some people have 

balanced their ailerons.

      Mike in SW Polygamy Utah

Old Kolb Company would not accept the fact that some of us were experiencing 

aileron flutter.  In my case, all three of the Kolbs I built, US, FS, and 

mkIII.  It took Dick Rahill seriously scaring himself in the factory FSII 

when he inadvertently got into aileron flutter to wake them up and come up 

with a solution.



Previous to that and during the build of my mkIII, I fabricated counter 

balance weights.  During testing discovered my solution only added to the 

problem.  Took them off and flew without any until Kolb came up with a good 

set of counterbalance weights that worked.



Some Kolbs don't have a problem, and some do.  Counter balance weights are 

cheap insurance.



As an added note reference aileron flutter.  Some folks think the problem 

lies with lose control linkage, hinges, pivot points, etc.  Not so.  The 

problem lies with big ailerons that are hinged from the leading edge and not 

balanced.  Once the aileron is balanced, it flies through the air, smooth or 

rough, as slick as a whistle.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

Mike



I don't think I posted the photo but I have looked at the new ailerons and 

personally I think they fixed something not broken. Push pull cables can 

fail and you can't preflight them. If they start binding hopefully you will 

have time to fix them before they are a problem. But fixing would require 

opening the wing.



I saw the plane a Sun N Fun ready to fly and at Oshkosh ready to fly but????

Has it been test flown yet?



I balanced my ailerons with only 2 inches of the solid bar in the balance 

arms and that worked till I got the redrive engine on my MKIIIC which 

allowed me to fly faster. I noticed at high cruise (80MPH) that there was a 

small amount of flutter starting so I changed to 4 inch of solid balance 

bar. So far there has been no more flutter as fast as I have gone so far 95 

MPH. I recommend everyone balance the ailerons as instructed, I just don't 

like any more weight in my plane than necessary.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

In a message dated 9/19/2007 4:22:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Once the    aileron is balanced, it flies through the air, smooth or 

rough, as slick    as a whistle.



john h

	


 

 John,

 Why does the Firefly not require balance?   

 Steve

Firefly 007/Floats

do not  archive





See w target="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:22 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

I noticed at high cruise (80MPH) that there was a

 	  Quote: 	
		   small amount of flutter starting so I changed to 4 inch of solid balance 

 bar.  Rick Neilsen


	




Rick N:



The mkIII ailerons normally do not get into flutter until above 80mph.  On 

my mkIII anyhow.  About 82 or 83 it would start nibbling at flutter.  By 85 

she would be in full flutter is not caught in time.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

Steve B:

  

 How do you know it does not require counter balance  weights?

  

 If it flutters it will require counter balance weights.   

  

 Like I said in a previous msg, some do, some don't.   Higher airspeeds are more conducive to aileron flutter.

  

 The old Kolb factory mkIII had no counter balance weights and  never suggested it would get into flutter.  On the other hand, mine would  flutter if you looked at it straight.

  

 Counter balance weights are a little insurance that it won't  flutter.  Why test it to see if it will?

  

 john h

 [quote]      

 John,

   Why does the Firefly not require balance?     

   Steve

 



[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

I thought it was because I was so Dang slow   

 Steve

Firefly 007/Floats

do not  archive





See w target="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

Mike,

 On my Firestar,the plans stated that aileron counter-balances were not optional,they were a must! I think speed is the limiting factor here,perhaps weight considerations with the Firefly as well,but the faster you go the more chance of destructive flutter.I also thought all Kolb models had push rod aileron controls.



Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Welch 

Group,



After recently recovering from a disease related to being an old fart, I finally feel like getting back in the shop, again, to work on my Kolb. A few months ago, I believe it was Richard (Neilson?) that took some photos at Sun 'n Fun of the new yellow Kolb MkIIIX.  (which I have filed)

On this Xtra, it appeared there were aileron bellcranks and pushrods!!! Was this a [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

Steve B:

  

 Did you ever see a snail equipped with aileron counter balance  weights?  Floats either.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]    



   I thought it was because I was so Dang slow     

   Steve

Firefly 007/Floats

do not    archive





         See w target="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	
[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:17 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

________________________________

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:41:55 -0700

From: gaman(at)att.net

Subject: Re: Ailerons 101

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

  Gentlemen,

  Yes, Gary, all Kolbs do have push rods to move their ailerons.  But, I was referring to the new style pushrods located out in the wing, like my Cessna has.  Take a look see at the enclosed photo. (From Richard Pike, BTW)

  I didn't quite fully understand Rick Neilsen's description of the balance mechanism.  By any chance, Rick, do you have a photo. (and maybe a measurement or two)

  All good stuff, especially John H.'s experience with & without them!!                Mike Welch 

Mike,

 On my Firestar,the plans stated that aileron counter-balances were not optional,they were a must! I think speed is the limiting factor here,perhaps weight considerations with the Firefly as well,but the faster you go the more chance of destructive flutter.I also thought all Kolb models had push rod aileron controls.

_________________________________________________________________

Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Café.

http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

Hi Gang:

  

 Those little push rods you guys are talking about are  actually Push/Pull Tubes.  They work both ways and are not rods, but  tubes.

  

 Every time ya'll refer to them as push rods my mind sees  push rods in an four stroke.  

  

 john h

 mkIII 

 [quote]    

Mike,

 I also thought all    Kolb models had push rod aileron  controls.



 [b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

All, The factors listed by John are causes of flutter, but there is one more and that is weight. My MkIII has a very heavy paint job (bought that way) and without counterweights would begin to get aileron flutter at 70 mph. How important is the weight consideration. Consider that an owner of a type certificated aircraft is allowed to paint his aircraft, EXCEPT control surfaces. They must be painted by an A & P and rebalanced after painting. 

From FAR 43

 43.3   Persons authorized to perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alterations.

 (g) Except for holders of a sport pilot certificate, the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot which is not used under part 121, 129, or 135 of this chapter. The holder of a sport pilot certificate may perform preventive maintenance on an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot and issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category.

From FAR 43 Appendix A

(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations: 

9) Refinishing decorative coating of fuselage, balloon baskets, wings tail group surfaces (excluding balanced control surfaces), fairings, cowlings, landing gear, cabin, or cockpit interior when removal or disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is not required.



The faster an aircraft goes the more susceptible it becomes to flutter. Weight of control surfaces as well as balance becomes more and more critical. For instance, on the Rutan canard aircraft, the builder is given a range of acceptable weights within which the elevators must fall after balancing, If either does not, the builder is given one chance to fix them by removing a specified portion of the fiberglass covering by sanding. If it still does not fall within the acceptable range, the builder is instructed to scrap them and make new. 



Rick



On 9/19/07, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   



________________________________



Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:41:55 -0700

From: gaman(at)att.net (gaman(at)att.net)

Subject: Re: Ailerons 101

To:  kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)



  Gentlemen,



  Yes, Gary, all Kolbs do have push rods to move their ailerons.  But, I was referring to the new style pushrods located out in the wing, like my Cessna has.  Take a look see at the enclosed photo. (From Richard Pike, BTW) 

  I didn't quite fully understand Rick Neilsen's description of the balance mechanism.  By any chance, Rick, do you have a photo. (and maybe a measurement or two)



  All good stuff, especially John H.'s experience with & without them!!                Mike Welch 

Mike,

 On my Firestar,the plans stated that aileron counter-balances were not optional,they were a must! I think speed is the limiting factor here,perhaps weight considerations with the Firefly as well,but the faster you go the more chance of destructive  flutter.I also thought all Kolb models had push rod aileron controls.



_________________________________________________________________

Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Café. 

http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline

	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in" 

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

But, I was referring to the new style pushrods located out in the wing, 

like my Cessna has.   !



Mike Welch





Mike W:



That is the end of a Morse cable.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

John H.



   You mean that photo of the aileron horn is also showing a "Morse cable?"  As in a flexible type aircraft cable with a swaged fitting on the end?  Oh!!  Then I would assume there is one just like it on top of the wing, too.  Yes?

                            Mike W.



  Hey John, I just checked the other photos and came up with this one of the top of the wing.  It doesn't appear to have anything attached to control the top of the aileron.    ???   Plus, a real close up vies of the "bellcrank & pushrod photo sure appears to have a heavy duty solid steel (?) rod attached to the heim bearing.

Is there any other people with new Xtra kits that have this feature, or is setup this just an orphan??  If it is indeed a solid rod, wouldn't that be referred to as a "push rod?"  Again, this design looks pretty much the same as on my Cessna 172.  As far as I knew, it was a push rod (from the bellcrank to the aileron horn).     ???        Thanks



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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

Ah ha!!  After I sent off that last email, I went see what the "Morse cable" was built like.  I see what you mean, John.  The end of the cable has the solid shaft that attaches to the bearing.   Oh.        Mike W.





 	  Quote: 	
		   But, I was referring to the new style pushrods located out in the wing,

 like my Cessna has. !



 Mike Welch





 Mike W:



 That is the end of a Morse cable.



 john h

 mkIII


	


_________________________________________________________________

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

Mike W:



A Morse cable is a push/pull cable.  Only needs one.  You know 

like.........push and pull.  



No, a Morse cable is a very stiff cable inside a flexible housing.  They are 

used for marine steering cables, also push/pull.



john h

mkIII



   You mean that photo of the aileron horn is also showing a "Morse cable?" 

As in a flexible type aircraft cable with a swaged fitting on the end?  Oh!! 

Then I would assume there is one just like it on top of the wing, too.  Yes?

                            Mike W.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: Ailerons 101

In a message dated 9/19/2007 7:17:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Take a    look see at the enclosed photo. (From Richard Pike,  BTW)

	


 

 It's also worth noting the beautiful Fairing/Inspection cover fabricated by  Bryan Melborn.

 AHHHHH, The Student has become the Master.   

 Steve  B

Firefly 007/Floats

do not  archive





See w target="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:47 am Post subject: Ailerons 101

At 03:21 PM 9/19/07 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

As an added note reference aileron flutter.  Some folks think the problem 

lies with lose control linkage, hinges, pivot points, etc.  Not so.  The 

problem lies with big ailerons that are hinged from the leading edge and not 

balanced.  Once the aileron is balanced, it flies through the air, smooth or 

rough, as slick as a whistle.




	


John, & Kolbers



The root cause of aileron flutter is the lack of wing stiffness.  Due to the 

fact that the wing can and does flex during flight in response to passing 

through unstable air and or roll control movement, it causes the wing to 

twist chord wise with the most of the movement taking place at the 

unsupported outer wing tip.  By doing so this tries to whip the aileron up 

and down.  The balancing of the aileron puts a mass ahead of the hinge equal 

to aileron mass behind the hinge line and so the aileron will bounce up and 

down but will not twist about the hinge due to wing twisting.



If you would like to read more about this, Google - 'NACA "aileron flutter"'



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: Ailerons 101

Jack, 

  

   I'll concede the root cause of aileron flutter.  But, I would like to try again.  Does anyone have a photo of a balanced aireron, and possibly some weights and dimensions.  This improvement seems to be worthwhile, but for those of us wanting to balance our aileron, could a couple of you craftman show us your stuff?  Ailerons, that is.  I'm certain this would be greatly appreciated by more than just me.

                                          Mike in SW Utah

  

 > John, & Kolbers

[quote] 

 The root cause of aileron flutter is the lack of wing stiffness. Due to the 

 fact that the wing can and does flex during flight in response to passing 

 through unstable air and or roll control movement, it causes the wing to 

 twist chord wise with the most of the movement taking place at the 

 unsupported outer wing tip. By doing so this tries to whip the aileron up 

 and down. The balancing of the aileron puts a mass ahead of the hinge equal 

 to aileron mass behind the hinge line and so the aileron will bounce up and 

 down but will not twist about the hinge due to wing twisting.

 

 If you would like to read more about this, Google - 'NACA "aileron flutter"'

 

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN



More photos; more messages; more whatever – Get MORE with Windows Live™ Hotmail®. NOW with 5GB storage. Get more!   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

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