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smoore
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 10
Location: Lakewood, CO
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 Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: Reconsideration of mission + intro (long) |
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Hi all,
I've been doing research about AB-EX planes for nearly a year now and was CONVINCED a Sonex w/Aerovee was MY airplane. I live in CO and figured I could just use the wonderfully long runways we have here in the USA to overcome any DA problems. With the FAA restructuring, this may no longer be the case. I'm not a rich man by any means but have always managed to have "big-boy toys" around... motorcycles, 4x4's, what have you. However, I sure can't afford to purchase and fly most any certified aircraft, therefore AB-EX. User fees would be hard to pay on principle, let alone practical financial means.
Oh, I am a non-pilot who last acted as PIC 22 years ago when I was in high school. I understand that either the Sonex or just about any Heintz design would suffice for primary training. Any of the Sonex, 601 or 701 should be enough airplane for me to enjoy flying for years. The added safety of a STOL configuration is a bonus. I've read lots of reports of "stupid pilot tricks" and have thought, "Wow, I could make that mistake!" As far as I understand, there have been no fatalities in 21 years of CH 701 flying.
So... if I can operate a CH701 from a football field, I figure I can find somewhere to fly it from for Saturday afternoon fun flights. My mission basically includes:
- Day/(occasional) Night VFR
- 2up, full fuel, camping gear.
- tie down outside in CO in flying season, trailer able for backyard storage.
- low fuel consumption and *maintenance* costs.
- mainly "sunday flying" with the occasional camping XC
- ability to attend fly-ins
and now possibly....
- off airport operation
- float operation
To the questions:
1 - What's it really like to cruise at 85mph? Obviously you're not going to be hanging with a group of RV's when going to a pancake breakfast. At 85mph does that pancake breakfast turn into a pancake lunch?
2 - The Rotax. Good lord are these things expensive. I've looked on Barnstormers for only a week but there just aren't any 912 or 912s motors available used. Is there an economical way to get into the Rotax?
2 (supplemental) - I don't mind spending money on my own education ("Rotax school") nearly as much as spending it on material goods. i.e. I'd be confident in buying a 1/3 "used up" Rotax and the education required to maintain/troubleshoot/overhaul it for the same price as a new Rotax *if* the rebuild costs aren't extreme.
3 - How much is a complete overhaul for the Rotax? How about a top end? I've seen some really scary unsubstantiated rumors about $3000 cranks for the 912? That's insanity when I could rebuild a VW four times for that much money.
4 - The alternates. I understand that there are some Corvair CH 701 being built. Does the designer condone these installations? Being my very first airplane I'm not really looking to experiment, I want to follow a proven path.
5 - The 801. These things look like an incredible aircraft. 801 proponents, please feel free to try to convince me to take the extra training and get a medical to break from the SP regulations!  I have simply discounted 4-up flight from my mission for economy.
So anyway, HI! I'll be using the matronics forum to view and participate in this list.
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_________________
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Sean Moore
... re-evaluating mission |
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psm(at)ATT.NET
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:02 am Post subject: Reconsideration of mission + intro (long) |
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Hi Sean,
I would normally reply off-list for this kind of question. However,
my first reply may be of interest to others. If you want to continue
corresponding with me over this question, please write directly to me.
I have two big suggestions for you. The first is to evaluate the
MISSION you have for an airplane. The second is to forget using a
home built airplane for your own primary pilot training.
There are many different ways a person might use an
airplane. However, at this stage they break down into two
conflicting choices. The question is do you want to fly around in
the local area and possibly make use of your back yard or some other
small airfield or do you want to fly long distances economically. A
CH701 is designed to operate from very short and possibly soft
fields. It is a poor choice for long distance travel. The CH801 is
a very similar plane, from the mission standpoint, but has 4 seats
instead of 2. A CH601XL, the current version of a Zodiac, is a fine
cross country flyer with severe limits in the number of seats and
baggage allowance. It must be operated from real airports, but
doesn't require as much runway as larger certified planes. Grass
runways are fine for the XL, but they need to be long and smooth
compared to the needs for the 701. I am not aware of any low to
moderate cost plane design that can really fill both missions
described above well.
If you are not yet a pilot, you probably don't really know which of
the above missions you prefer to conquer. There are many other
things you might learn as you learn to fly. Each airplane design
flies significantly differently from all other airplane
designs. This is significant to experienced pilots and generally
unknown to non-pilots. Before spending a lot of money and time on
your own plane it is very sensible to try it out first and see how it
fits your own personal tastes.
Building your own airplane with the idea you will use it for primary
pilot training has lots of problems. The first, and perhaps most
significant, is that you can't perform the test described above. If
you are not already a pilot, you can't fly a candidate airplane to
see if you like it or not.
Perhaps the other big problem with building a plane to use for
primary training is you won't be able to do the test flights for the
plane. Before a plane can be used for "Fun" flying it must go
through a rigorous and LONG test program. This can take a minimum of
40 hours of flight and might take longer. Before completing this
"Phase I" flight test program, the plane can't be used for flight
training or anything else. So not only can't you do the flight
testing, you will need to find someone else to do the first year or
so of flying in the airplane you just spent several years
building. Only after the testing is complete can you start your own
pilot training. Then you might find it impossible to get any
licensed instructor to fly in your experimental plane and teach you to fly.
The bottom line of all this is that I think you should consider doing
your pilot training in rented airplanes. You can find such planes at
nearly any airport and also find instructors willing and able to
teach you in them. Today, they will probably be older certified
planes such as Cessnas and Pipers. In the (hopefully) near future
you will be able to train in Light Sport Airplanes as they become
available in your local area. You may be able to save a little on
the rental fees for these planes but probably not very much. The
reason is they are mostly brand new airplanes while the other ones
are typically at least 30 years old. When it comes time to buy your
own plane, the LSA choice becomes more practical. You can get a new
LSA for around $100,000 or build your own from a kit for around half
that price.
I wish you luck in your flying adventure.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 06:53 PM 9/19/2007, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi all,
I've been doing research about AB-EX planes for nearly a year now
and was CONVINCED a Sonex w/Aerovee was MY airplane. I live in CO
and figured I could just use the wonderfully long runways we have
here in the USA to overcome any DA problems. With the FAA
restructuring, this may no longer be the case. I'm not a rich man
by any means but have always managed to have "big-boy toys"
around... motorcycles, 4x4's, what have you. However, I sure can't
afford to purchase and fly most any certified aircraft, therefore
AB-EX. User fees would be hard to pay on principle, let alone
practical financial means.
Oh, I am a non-pilot who last acted as PIC 22 years ago when I was
in high school. I understand that either the Sonex or just about
any Heintz design would suffice for primary training. Any of the
Sonex, 601 or 701 should be enough airplane for me to enjoy flying
for years. The added safety of a STOL configuration is a
bonus. I've read lots of reports of "stupid pilot tricks" and have
thought, "Wow, I could make that mistake!" As far as I understand,
there have been no fatalities in 21 years of CH 701 flying.
So... if I can operate a CH701 from a football field, I figure I can
find somewhere to fly it from for Saturday afternoon fun
flights. My mission basically includes:
- Day/(occasional) Night VFR
- 2up, full fuel, camping gear.
- tie down outside in CO in flying season, trailer able for backyard storage.
- low fuel consumption and *maintenance* costs.
- mainly "sunday flying" with the occasional camping XC
- ability to attend fly-ins
and now possibly....
- off airport operation
- float operation
To the questions:
1 - What's it really like to cruise at 85mph? Obviously you're not
going to be hanging with a group of RV's when going to a pancake
breakfast. At 85mph does that pancake breakfast turn into a pancake lunch?
2 - The Rotax. Good lord are these things expensive. I've looked
on Barnstormers for only a week but there just aren't any 912 or
912s motors available used. Is there an economical way to get into
the Rotax?
2 (supplemental) - I don't mind spending money on my own education
("Rotax school") nearly as much as spending it on material
goods. i.e. I'd be confident in buying a 1/3 "used up" Rotax and
the education required to maintain/troubleshoot/overhaul it for the
same price as a new Rotax *if* the rebuild costs aren't extreme.
3 - How much is a complete overhaul for the Rotax? How about a top
end? I've seen some really scary unsubstantiated rumors about $3000
cranks for the 912? That's insanity when I could rebuild a VW four
times for that much money.
4 - The alternates. I understand that there are some Corvair CH 701
being built. Does the designer condone these installations? Being
my very first airplane I'm not really looking to experiment, I want
to follow a proven path.
5 - The 801. These things look like an incredible aircraft. 801
proponents, please feel free to try to convince me to take the extra
training and get a medical to break from the SP regulations! I
have simply discounted 4-up flight from my mission for economy.
So anyway, HI! I'll be using the matronics forum to view and
participate in this list.
--------
--
Sean Moore
... re-evaluating mission
|
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barcusc(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:11 am Post subject: Reconsideration of mission + intro (long) |
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Clyde Barcus
601 XL, Continental Powered
Hendersonville, TN
Hi Paul,
I think a lot of people have questions in this area and for the most part I
agree with what you said. However, things are changing rapidly, especially
it regards to instructors. Check out the EAA web site and go to Sport Pilot
Instructors, you will find a lot of instructors listed by state that are
willing to instruct in experimental airplanes. I have talked with a couple
of them and discussed the possibility of flight testing my airplane. One of
them lives reasonably close and he is willing to flight test my airplane for
the same amount as he charges for flight instruction, which is $40.00 per
hour. In regards to the 40 hours, that depends on the engine and prop choice
and the DAR. It can be as little as 25 hours, especially if it is a
certified engine. Your point about training within the 40 hours (or 25
hours) is correct, but I am willing to bet you won't have a problem finding
a very experienced pilot in your local EAA chapter that would be willing to
fly off time after the initial test flights, especially if you are supplying
fuel.
Regards:
Clyde
DO NOT ARCHIVE
---
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject: Reconsideration of mission + intro (long) |
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smoore wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi all,
I've been doing research about AB-EX planes for nearly a year now and was CONVINCED a Sonex w/Aerovee was MY airplane. I live in CO and figured I could just use the wonderfully long runways we have here in the USA to overcome any DA problems.
- Day/(occasional) Night VFR
- 2up, full fuel, camping gear.
- tie down outside in CO in flying season, trailer able for backyard storage.
- low fuel consumption and *maintenance* costs.
- mainly "sunday flying" with the occasional camping XC
- ability to attend fly-ins
Sean Moore
... re-evaluating mission
Sean,
|
1. With a 701, you're going to have to start much earlier in the
morning for that fly-in breakfast if you want to eat with the RV pilots.
2. The Rotax is a good engine, yes expensive, periodically troublesome
for people who don't enjoy knowing engines. No economy here. Try Jabaru
2200.
2-s Costs for parts-Rotax are in keeping with Lyc and Cont. But,
you'll have to self educate to survive any engine, air or water cooled.
3. Better to buy a used VW or new Jabaru 2200 or HKS.
4. Corvair is too small for an 801 and too large for practical use in a
701. You need cooling speed to keep the Corvair healthy which the 701
doesn't.
Lots of alternate engines out there, only a few that are sized and
priced right.
5. The 801 needs 135 hp or more to fly well and it might just as well be
a Lyc, or an auto conversion, but then you'll have to pay a lot more
attention to details for
cooling, fuel mixture, ignition and mounting. Still, there's a lot
positive to be said about water cooled alternatives and you'd still need
to study a bit.
6. Do get the private licence, bust your budget and go for it. You'll
not be sorry.
Comment: I believe you should buy an aircraft like a T-craft or
Luscombe or whatever and fly it for the license and then sell it when
you decide on the best candidate
for your flying needs. Then you'll know enough to bounce the questions
off your own experience. Building is a big deal, that you haven't
mentioned, much bigger deal than you know. It can bite you if you're
not prepared for a project.
Good luck,
Larry McFarland 601HDS plans built at www.macsmachine.com
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