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Engine Comparison

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n282rs(at)satx.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: Engine Comparison

Some of you already know that I have had 3 different engines on my  Zodiac  (CH601HD) . The current  engine is a Jabiru 3300 and I just took the plane out of Phase 1 testing.  To celebrate, I took my wife on a  short cross country to to Fredericksburg TX (T82) for lunch. They have a nice  diner and a hotel on the field.

  

 The first engine was a VW with a redrive. The VW may work for other  airframes, but I think most would be disappointed with it. A Corvair is cheaper  and provides much more power. My highest speed with the VW was just under 90  mph. Others have had slightly better speeds without the redrive, but their  takeoff roll is much longer.   The  redrive provided a very short takeoff roll and a very fast climb to 1000' AGL,  then you had to back off the throttle to let the engine cool down. Any attempt  to climb after that was done in small steps or a very gradually.

  

 The Corvair and the Jabiru 3300 are very  similar in performance. My WOT speed seem to be about 5 mph faster with the  Jabiru (at) 127 mph. I usually cruised at 3000 rpm when I had the Corvair  installed. My cruise speed was usually around 107-110 mph. The Jabiru  is getting about the same speed at 2850 rpm. Fuel burn seems to be  similar.  On my trip to T82 today, I stayed pretty close to 3000 rpm and  the fuel burn was 6.8 gph. I don't have a fuel flow sender. Fuel burn is  calculated by sticking the tanks after flying. I'm not sure why, but the  Jab has a bit longer take off roll. That might be due to my foot having to be  firmly planted on the right rudder pedal because of P- factor. I don't have  sufficient offset in the engine mount and I need a lot of right rudder when  taking off. After I level off, it's not a problem. I had a lot of  offset on the Corvair, so P-factor wasn't a problem. Weight appears to be  the biggest difference. My plane lost just over 70 lbs with the change to the  Jabiru. My wallet got much lighter too.

  

 The Jabiru seems to be more sensitive to  cooling. I think some of that lies in the cowling design especially in  climb. The top of the cowl openings slope backwards and I think the air skips  over the cowl instead of being forced in.  I have heard that  someone attached some Plexiglas deflectors to scoop air when in a climb. I  plan on making some after I get some paint on the cowl.

  

 Carbs--I am not impressed with the Bing.  Mine had the economy tuning kit installed. My EGT's were uneven and would go too  high if I let the rpm drop below 2850. CHT's were difficult to keep under  control. The plugs always looked like the mixture was too rich. I put my Ellison  on and everything changed. I can enrichen or lean the mixture to keep the EGT's  at 1350-1400 F in cruise or WOT. CHT's are running around 280-290 F except on  the front 2 cylinders. They frequently run around 315 F. I don't see why they  would be the hottest. I noticed that most people have a piece of sheet metal  mounted vertical in front of those 2 cylinders and it is nearly the same height  as the cylinder. I need to duplicate that  to see if it makes a difference.  My Plexiglas deflectors may also help when I get them installed.

  

 I'm planning on flying to Copperstate next  month, then on to Las Vegas. If everything goes as planned, I hope to  be arriving at the air show, late Thursday, then departing Saturday  afternoon for Vegas. Hope to see you all there.   

  

Randy Stout

San Antonio TX

www.geocities.com/n282rs 

n282rs at  satx.rr.com

   [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject: Engine Comparison

>  Some of you already know that I have had 3  different engines on my Zodiac   (CH601HD) . 

  

 Can we  pass the hat and buy Randy a Rotax so he can complete his  survey?

  

 Thanks  for the comparison of the Bing and the Ellison - I'll keep your experience in  mind in the future.

  

 --  Craig 

  

 do not  archive

   [quote][b]

psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: Engine Comparison

Hi Randy,



 Thank you for the great engine comparison.  I wonder if you could answer a couple of questions about the Corvair and Jabiru differences.  



 First, did you use the same propeller for both engines?  If you have an adjustable propeller did you use the same settings?



 The other question I have is why you changed from the Corvair to the Jabiru.  If I understood the point about phase 1 testing, it seems you went through all three engines before completing phase 1.  Is this true?  Or, did you need to go back into phase 1 testing when you changed engines?



 Thanks,



 Paul

 XL fuselage

 do not archive



 

 At 07:57 PM 9/21/2007, you wrote:

 [quote]Some of you already know that I have had 3 different engines on my Zodiac  (CH601HD) . The current engine is a Jabiru 3300 and I just took the plane out of Phase 1 testing. To celebrate, I took my wife on a short cross country to to Fredericksburg TX (T82) for lunch. They have a nice diner and a hotel on the field.

  

 The first engine was a VW with a redrive. The VW may work for other airframes, but I think most would be disappointed with it. A Corvair is cheaper and provides much more power. My highest speed with the VW was just under 90 mph. Others have had slightly better speeds without the redrive, but their takeoff roll is much longer.   The redrive provided a very short takeoff roll and a very fast climb to 1000' AGL, then you had to back off the throttle to let the engine cool down. Any attempt to climb after that was done in small steps or a very gradually.

  

 The Corvair and the Jabiru 3300 are very similar in performance. My WOT speed seem to be about 5 mph faster with the Jabiru (at) 127 mph. I usually cruised at 3000 rpm when I had the Corvair installed. My cruise speed was usually around 107-110 mph. The Jabiru is getting about the same speed at 2850 rpm. Fuel burn seems to be similar.  On my trip to T82 today, I stayed pretty close to 3000 rpm and the fuel burn was 6.8 gph. I don't have a fuel flow sender. Fuel burn is calculated by sticking the tanks after flying. I'm not sure why, but the Jab has a bit longer take off roll. That might be due to my foot having to be firmly planted on the right rudder pedal because of P- factor. I don't have sufficient offset in the engine mount and I need a lot of right rudder when taking off. After I level off, it's not a problem. I had a lot of offset on the Corvair, so P-factor wasn't a problem. Weight appears to be the biggest difference. My plane lost just over 70 lbs with the change to the Jabiru. My wallet got much lighter too.

  

 The Jabiru seems to be more sensitive to cooling. I think some of that lies in the cowling design especially in climb. The top of the cowl openings slope backwards and I think the air skips over the cowl instead of being forced in.  I have heard that someone attached some Plexiglas deflectors to scoop air when in a climb. I plan on making some after I get some paint on the cowl.

  

 Carbs--I am not impressed with the Bing. Mine had the economy tuning kit installed. My EGT's were uneven and would go too high if I let the rpm drop below 2850. CHT's were difficult to keep under control. The plugs always looked like the mixture was too rich. I put my Ellison on and everything changed. I can enrichen or lean the mixture to keep the EGT's at 1350-1400 F in cruise or WOT. CHT's are running around 280-290 F except on the front 2 cylinders. They frequently run around 315 F. I don't see why they would be the hottest. I noticed that most people have a piece of sheet metal mounted vertical in front of those 2 cylinders and it is nearly the same height as the cylinder. I need to duplicate that  to see if it makes a difference. My Plexiglas deflectors may also help when I get them installed.

  

 I'm planning on flying to Copperstate next month, then on to Las Vegas. If everything goes as planned, I hope to be arriving at the air show, late Thursday, then departing Saturday afternoon for Vegas. Hope to see you all there.   

 

 Randy Stout

 San Antonio TX

 www.geocities.com/n282rs 

 n282rs at satx.rr.com

 

 [b]

n282rs(at)satx.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: Engine Comparison

Paul

  

 All 3 engines used different props. On the  VW,  I used a Power Fin. The Corvair, I used a Warp Drive. And on the  Jabiru, I have a Sensenich. All are ground adjustable. It's hard to compare  the pitch because the blades are completly different on all three. I know this  factors into the performance, but I can't tell you how much. 

  

 After the crank broke last year on the  Corvair, I found a deal on a never run,  second hand Jabiru. My wife helped  convince me that I needed it over the Corvair. Of course, she was in the plane  with me when the crank broke.

  

 Phase 1 testing is required anytime you make  a major change to the aircraft. You are required to fill out a Application For  Airworthiness and send it to your FSDO. I also wrote a letter explaining  what I was doing and my plan to go into phase 1 testing for a minimum  of 5 hours. 

  

 FWIW, I have nearly 180 hours on the  plane now. About 12 hours on the new Jabiru.

  

  

Randy Stout

San Antonio TX

www.geocities.com/n282rs 

n282rs at  satx.rr.com

 [quote]   

   --

WHC228(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: Engine Comparison

I would like to see some comments on using an O235 Lycoming. 

 I recently bought an engine, and am wondering why no one seems to be  talking about these engines.

 They seem to be reasonable to buy, have a good TBO, and plenty of power.  

 The only thing that is negative is the weight.

  

 Bill

 601XL 

 0235 

 wings & tail done



Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: Engine Comparison

Hi Bill,



 I don't have experience with the Lycoming engine, but I have been comparing results from different engine choices for a long while now.



 The weight is indeed the biggest issue with both the Lycoming and Continental engines.  This might not be such an issue if you have a lot of excess capacity in your plane.  However, if you are trying to meet the LSA requirements, as I am, then the extra 100 pounds or so really limits the size of people and the amount of baggage you can haul.



 I have never heard exactly how much excess weight penalty there is on the older engines.  While some weights are published, I thing there are large differences in the included equipment from one specification to another.  It is the total installed weight with all accessories that matters.   I think the 170 pound per person allowance for both baggage and human weight on the new Cessna 162 is heavily influenced by the engine choice.



 I guess the bottom line is that you should  consider what size people will be in your plane and how much baggage and fuel you want to carry before installing one of the older and heavier engines.



 Paul

 XL fuselage



 

 At 08:45 AM 9/22/2007, you wrote:

 [quote]I would like to see some comments on using an O235 Lycoming. 

 I recently bought an engine, and am wondering why no one seems to be talking about these engines.

 They seem to be reasonable to buy, have a good TBO, and plenty of power. 

 The only thing that is negative is the weight.

  

 Bill

 601XL 

 0235 

 wings & tail done

 [b]

Craig.Spainhower(at)exelo
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: Engine Comparison

I chose the 601XL so I could use the 0-235. I know the prototype 601xl is still flying with the lyc engine and Chris Heintz seems pretty happy with it. That is also the engine used in the CH2000. There is a weight penalty, total weight with the lyc 0-235 is typically over 850' empty. I'm trying to improve on that figure by using lightweight everything, electronic panel, fixed flaps, etc.. At least you won't have to worry about being tail heavy ; - )



Craig S.

N601XS, 601xl lyc 0-235

I would like to see some comments on using an O235 Lycoming. 

I recently bought an engine, and am wondering why no one seems to be  talking 

about these engines.

They seem to be reasonable to buy, have a good TBO, and plenty of power. 

The only thing that is negative is the weight.



Bill

601XL 

0235 



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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: Engine Comparison

>  I put my Ellison  on and everything changed. 

  

 Randy, do you have any pictures or details on  how you adapted the Ellison to connect to the Jabiru and  airbox?

  

 -- Craig

  

   [quote][b]

n282rs(at)satx.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: Engine Comparison

Gee, if you could have  asked that question yesterday. I just had the cowl off for the last week to  paint it and last night it finally dried enough I could put it on.  Give me  a few days and I'll try to get you a couple of pictures.

  

  

Randy Stout

San Antonio TX

www.geocities.com/n282rs

n282rs at  satx.rr.com

  

 [quote]   

   --

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: Engine Comparison

> Give me a few days and I'll try to get you  a couple of pictures. 

  

 No rush, it will be a while  before I can afford an Ellison. My first one went with the  Corvair.

  

 -- Craig

  

   [quote][b]

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